Section 172 Road traffic act

Honest John Back Room » Legal matters
What is life like with your car? Let us know and win £500 in John Lewis vouchers | No thanks
View Threaded
Sun 11 Dec 2016 10:23
Section 172 Road traffic act - annie83

My company received a letter to identify the driver of a company car for a sppeding offence in a tempory 40mph speed limit. We have a few company cars and several drivers. We asked for photographic evidence to help identify the driver but you cannot see the driver in the photo. We replied to say that we had no record of who was driving . We have recieved a reply to say that it is the companies responsibilty to identify the driver at the time of the offence and failure to do so is an offence and subject to a fine of up to £1000 plus 6 penalty points. If we are still unable to provide the information the matter will be passed to police for further enquiry.

Any advice?

What can we do if we cannot identify who was driving?

Who will get the 6 penalty points?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Dec 2016 11:24
Section 172 Road traffic act - Falkirk Bairn

A company car with multiple drivers should have a book in the car - driver signs in:- name, date, time, opening mileage, start point & destination

signs out: name, date, time, closing mileage.

Simples

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Dec 2016 11:34
Section 172 Road traffic act - gordonbennet

Agreed, our pool cars you have to sign the keys out and sign them back in.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Dec 2016 11:56
Section 172 Road traffic act - SLO76
The registered keeper is obliged under law to identify the person who was the driver, that obligation can then be passed to that individual. If the vehicle is registered to a firm then it'll be down to the owner or director. No way to escape points or a fine by non-disclosure these days, this loophole has been filled. If driver won't identify themselves I'd suggest telling staff (but not actually doing it) you'll be docking the pay of all those who use said vehicle by the amount of the fine so they aren't avoiding it and co workers are encouraged to land them in it. Then set up some system of signing drivers in for use on company vehicles that're shared like this.
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Dec 2016 12:41
Section 172 Road traffic act - RobJP

As has been said, the directors are legally responsible for ensuring that who is drving a car at any time is logged.

If the driver cannot be identified, then the directors will find themselves liable for points and the fine.

For the future, you must rectify the situation - how you choose to do so is up to you, whether it be by a logbook in the car that the driver signs on/off using, or having keys being signed out and signed back in, or some other method.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Dec 2016 13:26
Section 172 Road traffic act - annie83

Thanks for all the replies.

We will definately be putting a log book in place for future. As went cant identify a driver this time will it go to court?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Dec 2016 16:29
Section 172 Road traffic act - RobJP

The owner/director can expect to be prosecuted. Whether that entails court is up to the police / CPS.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Dec 2016 19:25
Section 172 Road traffic act - Simon
The company is very unlikely to get away with it so the best thing you can do is try harder to identify the driver. Surely it cant be that hard to pin down who was in that car on that day in question, on the road in which the deed was done.
We have various tickets and fines come through at the company where I work with multiple drivers driving different vehicles but we always manage to identify the perpetrator. Apart from once where the records had almost certainly been deliberately altered by the person in question because he must have realised he had triggered a camera. That time the company ended up before the beak as they couldn't actually pin the blame 100% on the guilty party.
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Dec 2016 22:08
Section 172 Road traffic act - Avant

I agree that it should be possible to find out who was driving; the date and time will have been recorded.

But does the legislation really say that the company incurs points as well as the fine? As a separate legal entity a company can't have a driving licence, so it would have to devolve to the directors. So then what happens if the company has four equal directors with 25% of the the shares each?

Anyone know which Act of Parliament this is from? I can look it up.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Dec 2016 22:13
Section 172 Road traffic act - gordonbennet

I don't get involved in admin, but arn't even pool cars assigned to a person, whom if the actual driver cannot be named accepts the flak should something like this happen.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Dec 2016 22:28
Section 172 Road traffic act - RobJP

I agree that it should be possible to find out who was driving; the date and time will have been recorded.

But does the legislation really say that the company incurs points as well as the fine? As a separate legal entity a company can't have a driving licence, so it would have to devolve to the directors. So then what happens if the company has four equal directors with 25% of the the shares each?

Anyone know which Act of Parliament this is from? I can look it up.

Road Traffic Act 1991, Section 21 (2).

Basically, the obligations on a company are the same as for a private individual, to make 'reasonable and diligent' enquiries as to who was driving. There is a defence that the driver could not be identified in spite of those efforts.

However ... Subsection 6 of the Act states that for that defence to be used, the company must show that it did not keep a record of drivers AND that to fail to keep such a record was 'reasonable'.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/40/section/21

Edited by RobJP on 11/12/2016 at 22:32

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 11 Dec 2016 22:33
Section 172 Road traffic act - Brit_in_Germany

It is all contained in section 172(5) rta, basically they can go after anyone who should have been responsible, i.e. the "director, manager, secretary or other similar officer".

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 12 Dec 2016 23:02
Section 172 Road traffic act - focussed

From my distant memory of company law, it's the company secretary who is the legal representative of the company, and will be ultimately in the frame.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 13 Dec 2016 09:47
Section 172 Road traffic act - Gordon17

From my distant memory of company law, it's the company secretary who is the legal representative of the company, and will be ultimately in the frame.

Yes, I remember a suggestion when this was introduced that company secretaries without driving licences would be much sought after!

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 13 Dec 2016 09:48
Section 172 Road traffic act - RobJP

The law is (probably deliberately) written to allow a wide latitude as to who can be prosecuted, as it states that : a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer


Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 24 Dec 2016 22:40
Section 172 Road traffic act - Middleman

The law is (probably deliberately) written to allow a wide latitude as to who can be prosecuted, as it states that : a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer


If the vehicle is registered in the name of the Company (and not an individual) no points will be imposed for a S172 offence. Companies do not have driving licences or driving records and prosecutors cannot pick an individual within the company on whom to impose points. The legislation only mentions, in the case where the Registered Keeper is a body corporate, that the notice must be served on the secretary or clerk of that body. But there is no provision in the legislation to impose an endorsement or points on any individual. However, the fine for a company will be higher than that on an individual.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link