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Any builders or surveyors on forum - scot22
Eight flats in a converted Victorian building in Devon. Twenty or so years ago rendering removed (cracking) and walls repointed with cement mortar to replace original lime. A new owner has claimed cement mortar is 'causing' penetrating damp and is demanding the walls are repointed, which is prohibitively expensive.

Has anyone any experience of problems with cement mortar ? if so any advice ?
Any builders or surveyors on forum - RobJP

My family were building contractors, and I spent a few of my younger years working in the family firm.

Just spoken to my dad, who laughed and said ... something the swear filter would block. But it sounds like 'bullocks'.

He's said to tell the new owner to produce a structural surveyor's report.

The problem with cement mortar is that it's very waterproof, which means that it doesn't 'breathe' like lime mortar. So if dampness is getting into the structure by some other means (no damp course, leaks on roof / lead flashings, etc) then it can become 'trapped' in the structure.

But to claim that the cement mortar is causing penetrating damp is a load of cobblers.

Any builders or surveyors on forum - scot22
Cheers Rob - that is very much appreciated.

As a student ( in those days fit and thought I had strength ) I had to go straight to bed as soon as I got home. Never had any job as physically exhausting.
Any builders or surveyors on forum - concrete

I agree with Rob. I take it we are talking of a solid wall as opposed to a cavity wall. The brick structure will still 'breathe' in a normal fashion and allow moisture vapour to pass through. The only way that is impared is if the interior has had a complete moisture vapour barrier installed to the walls and ceilings which makes it more difficult for the exterior wall to 'breathe'. This would also retain moisture (condensation) inside, which, without adequate ventilation would cause problems. The older houses tended to have chimneys, and higher ceilings which allow natural ventilation and air movement whenever a door or window opens and the air pressure changes. If these have been removed or fully sealed then that facility is lost. Also the exterior may have been sprayed with some kind of transparent coating to waterproof it, which will be determental to moisture escaping from the structure too. The most obvious cause though, as Rob said, is that water is penetrating the brick exterior either from rising damp or falling damp. Examine the damp proof course (if there is one at all). The roof will need checking along with any lead flashings and also the rainwater guttering and downpipes. It is usually quite easy to find where water ingress is happening. I think the least of the problems is likely to be the pointing, unless it is degraded and needs raking out and re-pointing. If you can prevent unwanted water ingress into the structure then the structure will usually be fine. Brick and mortar are quite capable of withstanding the ususal weather conditions in this country given normal structural integrity. If the structure has been fine for 20 years it does suggest that something has happened to alter that integrity. Good luck.

Cheers Concrete.

Any builders or surveyors on forum - scot22

Thanks Concrete for your informative post. It never ceases to amaze how useful this forum is for finding help.

Any builders or surveyors on forum - concrete

My pleasure. I feel the same way about the forum too. Cheers Concrete

Any builders or surveyors on forum - galileo

Until the 20th century masonry buildings in Europe and North America were generally constructed from highly permeable materials such as stone and lime-based mortars and renders covered with soft water-based paints which all allowed any damp to diffuse into the air without damage. The later application of impermeable materials which prevent the natural dispersion of damp, such as tiles, linoleum, cement and gypsum-based materials and synthetic paints is thought by some to be the most significant cause of damp problems in older buildings.

The Telegraph's property expert Jeff Howell has recommended lime mortar for pointing/rendering old buildings rather than cement.

Any builders or surveyors on forum - galileo

Until the 20th century masonry buildings in Europe and North America were generally constructed from highly permeable materials such as stone and lime-based mortars and renders covered with soft water-based paints which all allowed any damp to diffuse into the air without damage. The later application of impermeable materials which prevent the natural dispersion of damp, such as tiles, linoleum, cement and gypsum-based materials and synthetic paints is thought by some to be the most significant cause of damp problems in older buildings.

The Telegraph's property expert Jeff Howell has recommended lime mortar for pointing/rendering old buildings rather than cement.

Any builders or surveyors on forum - scot22

Thanks interesting reference. I have recently been told that builders now will not work with lime mortar because of problems using lime base.

Although it can be recommended - if well maintained cement mortar is in place is it cost effective to replace ?

Any builders or surveyors on forum - RobJP

Raking out and re-pointing is a horrible slow job. I know, because it's what I did for a month one summer in Wrexham, on a large building. That was 25 years ago, and it still looks fantastic now (I never claimed to be modest!), and I still feel proud of the job when I walk past it.

If the current mortar is in good condition, it'll probably cost £20-25 per square meter to do, plus the scaffolding costs.

Any builders or surveyors on forum - Happy Blue!

I'm a Chartered Surveyor, although more on the valuation side than construction but.,....

Render was removed (i.e. the whole wall covering was removed and the bricks exposed) and then the bricks were left exposed but the pointing was simply replaced by cement mortar? Is that right? If so, the complainant is talking rubbish. If however the whole wall was re-rendered in cement render, then they may have a point.

In my job I see many examples of dampness inside buildings and frequently it is due to the way the home is lived in. Are they doing a lot of cooking or drying clothes on or near radiators, or showering - all without suitable ventilation? Have the windows recently been replaced with PVCu double glazed units. All these cause or exacerbate excess dampness inside the building by producing or failing to remove moisture in the air. This condenses on cold surfaces, leaving dampness and eventually mould growth.

All they need to do is improve ventilation.

Edited by Happy Blue! on 03/08/2016 at 10:19

Any builders or surveyors on forum - scot22

Thanks Happy Blue for a valuable post. No rendering was replaced. Unfortunately the people concerned are rather obstinate.

Hopefully they can be shut up sooner rather than later.

Any builders or surveyors on forum - nick62

Our last tennants claimed the house was very damp, and had a terrible problem with mould, (despite it being our former family home for 30+ years prevoiusly with NO problemes whatsoever)!

Went round to investigate and was no so pleased to discover almost every radiator adorned in damp washing and all the windows closed.

Both the tennants, (man and wife) have honours degrees, one first class I understand. It's a pity they don't teach them common sense at university.

Edited by nick62 on 03/08/2016 at 21:57

Any builders or surveyors on forum - galileo

Our last tennants claimed the house was very damp, and had a terrible problem with mould, (despite it being our former family home for 30+ years prevoiusly with NO problemes whatsoever)!

Went round to investigate and was no so pleased to discover almost every radiator adorned in damp washing and all the windows closed.

Both the tennants, (man and wife) have honours degrees, one first class I understand. It's a pity they don't teach them common sense at university.

From the level of knowledge and intellect displayed by many graduates these days they might as well have got them from cornflake packets.

There was a time when only the top 4 or 5 percent of were able to qualify for a degree course, now the system (GCSE/A Levels) is devalued so that pretty much any sucker can fork out £9000 a year to be a 'university student'.

Who benefits from this? Not the students who find their qualification is only good for flipping burgers or similar menial tasks, nor employers who find they need serious amounts of on-the-job training.

Of course, Dave and George of the last Government were graduates too, make of that what you will.

Any builders or surveyors on forum - scot22

Thanks Nick, unfortunately too many tenants just don't seem to bother.

Galileo - agree completely. The rise in numbers going to 'University' ( so many renamed colleges ) was begun by Tony Blair. Unfortunately, or so called education system requires a complete overhaul. Subject for another thread ?

Any builders or surveyors on forum - concrete

Until the 20th century masonry buildings in Europe and North America were generally constructed from highly permeable materials such as stone and lime-based mortars and renders covered with soft water-based paints which all allowed any damp to diffuse into the air without damage. The later application of impermeable materials which prevent the natural dispersion of damp, such as tiles, linoleum, cement and gypsum-based materials and synthetic paints is thought by some to be the most significant cause of damp problems in older buildings.

The Telegraph's property expert Jeff Howell has recommended lime mortar for pointing/rendering old buildings rather than cement.

Most tradional construction materials will allow the flow of moisture vapour through. Bricks, gypsum cement based mortar, timber, plasterboard will all allow moisture through. If they did not they would be permanently wet in some cases. If they get wet either through rainfall or condensation, as soon as it stops raining or you finish boiling the potatoes the materials will start to naturally dry out if there is adequate airflow. This applies to inside and outside of structures. The OPs' problem seems to be the structure is retaining the moisture. If this is a sudden occurance after 20 years then it points to a recent problem arising. This could be roofing and flashing failing or gutters and downpipes overflowing or rising damp caused by settlement breaching the damp course ( if there is one in a Victorian house). Look to the obvious first. These are easy to check with a ladder or from the loft or careful examination of the first few brick courses as they come above ground level. Also moisture usually penetrates where the problem is, so if the interior wall is damp the chances are the problem is the other side of the wall allowing penetration. Fix the problem and the structure will dry out naturally, especially over the summer. It really isn't rocket science.

For years I worked especially on below ground structures. People assume that concrete is waterproof; wrong. But a concrete structure designed with reinforcement and constructed of high quality concrete with an addmix or tanking will probably be so. Even then, although water does not penetrate the structure, moisture vapour does and this is dealt with via forced ventilation. Airflow is one of the major keys to moisture control. Just stand in a telephone box in winter with the door closed and see how fast the windows steam up, open the door for a while and it all disappears. QED.

Cheers Concrete

Any builders or surveyors on forum - scot22

Thanks again Concrete. It is unfortunate that some people do not listen to reason and just keep on repeating an incorrent claim.

Ii is a shame that some people only accept what is said if it agrees with them !!!