Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? | Technical matters | Back Room Forum

Wed 20 Jul 2016 14:20

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - RS2016

Ever heard about the car's audio system affecting its electric power steering? At times, the steering becomes vague and hard to control; possibly because it stays stuck in low-speed (max. assistance) mode? Also, the brakes & steering sometimes behave strangely; sometimes pulling badly to one side; sometimes lurching suddenly to one side.

Apparently, plugging a USB memory stick into this car's audio system sometimes seems to stop the electric power steering from working properly; possibly by somehow affecting the signals from wheel-speed sensors?

2012 Hyundai i20 1.2 petrol classic ~20,000 miles. Serviced by main dealer. Following crash repair for mostly cosmetic damage which included the front passenger wheel, wing & bumper cover etc.; the electric power steering & possibly also the brakes have felt different on different days and at different times. Also, engine now has more frequent misfires. Sometimes there now is a smell of oil probably from the exhaust, sometimes with whiff of petrol after parking the car.

I now guess that plugging in a USB memory stick to replay an audio book through the car's audio system somehow triggers this difference. I guess that this somehow affects the wheel speed sensors or computer(s). I guess that this stops the power steering from switching properly from slow-speed (max. assistance) to its high-speed (min. assistance) mode, and the brakes/ABS wrongly assume that a wheel is skidding, so can pull to one side or perhaps trigger the stability control? It might also be affecting the engine management?

After several attempts, the mechanical wheel and steering alignment are probably at last now correct. But on bad days, the steering & brakes do not feel safe.

Does anyone have any ideas what to check please? Have there been other reports of this? So far, Hyundai have not been helpful.

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Wed 20 Jul 2016 14:42

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - Railroad.

Personally I would say this is definitely a job for a main dealer and not an independent. Untold and unseen damage could've occurred following an RTA. The Yaw sensor could be misaligned and the ABS controller could be receiving conflicting information from it and the steering angle sensor. This could possibly mean the ESP system could be deployed when there's no requirement for it.The controller compares the driver's steering intention with the vehicle's direction around its vertical axis. Normally they wouldn't be much different, but if they were the ESP system will take action to drop the engine power and apply the brakes individually as required to prevent skidding. I'm wondering if the system is being activated when it shouldn't be.

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Wed 20 Jul 2016 15:16

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - RS2016

Personally I would say this is definitely a job for a main dealer and not an independent. Untold and unseen damage could've occurred following an RTA. The Yaw sensor could be misaligned and the ABS controller could be receiving conflicting information from it and the steering angle sensor. This could possibly mean the ESP system could be deployed when there's no requirement for it.The controller compares the driver's steering intention with the vehicle's direction around its vertical axis. Normally they wouldn't be much different, but if they were the ESP system will take action to drop the engine power and apply the brakes individually as required to prevent skidding. I'm wondering if the system is being activated when it shouldn't be.

Thanks. All work has been done by a Hyundai approved bodyshop and Hyundai main dealer, so I should not still be having these problems. I have returned the car several times.

The basic cause might be something as simple as a damaged earth connection, causing multiple electronic problems? Or perhaps a 5volt voltage reference from the car's computer being shared between the USB/audio feature and several of the car's control electronic boxes?

But, Hyundai publishes no information about the wiring diagram or systems in this i20 car.

Unfortunately, the Hyundai main dealer's idea of diagnosis is just to take the car on a brief test drive; rather than to inspect/check the systems methodically.

So I need suggestions about where to ask the main dealer to look, please.

Edited by RS2016 on 20/07/2016 at 15:29

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Wed 20 Jul 2016 21:08

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - Railroad.

It does all seem very strange, but you did say that the steering alignment had been corrected following repairs. The steering angle sensor may need to be recalibrated. I would definitely want to be certain that SAS and the Yaw sensor are working correctly and accurately. You cannot rely on the presence of fault codes as the controller may not be seeing anything wrong. If your driving along and a speed signal is received from the wheel sensors, and the SAS says this and the yaw sensor says that then the controller will think you're under or over steering and take the appropriate action. It has no other way of knowing you're in fact driving in a straight line. A bad earth connection as you say could also be the cause, and since repairs have been carried out this is not that unlikely. You need someone with the correct diagnostic equipment and who is fully familiar with the system, and unfortunately that would rule out most ordinary independent garages.

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Wed 20 Jul 2016 21:19

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - elekie&a/c doctor

I don,t quite get it either.If the usb socket/audio system were causing this much trouble,there would be a lot of Airbuses flying around out of control.If all was ok before the damage,then something has to be out of alignment.

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Thu 21 Jul 2016 10:37

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - Railroad.

One thing you could try is to temporarily deactivate the ESP system and see if the problem still occurs. However not all cars will allow you to do this, but some do. All cars from 2012 have ESP fitted as standard, and it became a legal requirement from 2014. The system will be activated by default when the engine is started, but on some cars there is an option to switch it off, but not all. You will get warnings on the dash to tell you it's deactivated, and it will re-activate the next time you start the engine. Check your owner's manual. With the ESP turned off see if your problem still exists. If it doesn't then you'll know something is misaligned or needs calibrating. Obviously be aware that the ESP system is a safety function and will not provide any protection against skidding when it's disabled, so exercise extra caution.

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Thu 21 Jul 2016 12:29

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - RS2016

Thanks everyone. I don't know whether the i20 has a separate yaw sensor, or whether its computer tries to guess based on info. from wheel sensors & steering sensors?

Yes, the i20 does have a switch to disable ESP/ESC. I'll try that. However it is difficult to test so many possible options on public roads in ordinary traffic: eg. Yesterday. I was stuck for ages behind a large farm tractor. Other times, the traffic is too heavy for safe testing.

- Supposedly, the body alignment has been checked & is OK.
- Supposedly, the mechanical wheel alignment has been adjusted to Hyundai specs.
- Supposedly, none of the mechanical parts of the suspension or steering are bent or damaged.

But the Hyundai approved bodyshop failed to re-align the steering wheel or reset the steering angle sensor: This made the steering pull badly to the right.

Since then, the steering angle sensor has been reset twice by the Hyundai main dealer, so that is now better. I now know that this fairly simple electronic procedure is absolutely crucial for i20s. Not sure why the Hyundai approved bodyshop did not know this?? Also, why did it need two attempts??

I've noticed another suspicious symptom of an electrical / electronic / computer fault which I think is different from before the crash / crash repairs:

The dashboard Miles Per Gallon reading is now about 30% too high, at over 60MPG rather than the real ~47MPG. It always was optimistic, but not this far out. Presumably it is using faulty information from faulty sensors, or possibly the i20's computer has been reset to the wrong wheel size?

I still think (hope) that there is a simple explanation for most of these symptoms? But now:

- Either need the whole car checked meticulously, despite any claims that "all is OK."

- Or, need a better guess of the likely cause(s) for these problem(s).

So far, Hyundai has not been helpful: Apparently Hyundai has very low expectations of the i20 or its steering!

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Thu 21 Jul 2016 13:40

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - elekie&a/c doctor

The yaw rate sensor will be bolted to the frame of he car,probably under the carpet on the transmission tunnel ,or seat or similar.The steering angle sensor will be attached to the back of the steering wheel or be part of the power steering system .It is important that the angle sensor is correctly aligned to see zero degrees of turn when the car is moving straight ahead with the steering wheel central.The system will only allow a tolerance of approx 15 degrees off centre before the esp system cannot calculate an accurate relationship between abs,esp and yaw readings.It will then very likely throw a wobbly and cause issues with the braking/steering systems.I still think something is mis-aligned.

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Thu 21 Jul 2016 15:17

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - RS2016

The yaw rate sensor will be bolted to the frame of he car,probably under the carpet on the transmission tunnel ,or seat or similar.The steering angle sensor will be attached to the back of the steering wheel or be part of the power steering system .It is important that the angle sensor is correctly aligned to see zero degrees of turn when the car is moving straight ahead with the steering wheel central.The system will only allow a tolerance of approx 15 degrees off centre before the esp system cannot calculate an accurate relationship between abs,esp and yaw readings.It will then very likely throw a wobbly and cause issues with the braking/steering systems.I still think something is mis-aligned.

Thanks. I think Hyundai's may have a tighter tolerance: +/- 5 degrees? (Judging by an old official YouTube about the Elantra. www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1S9LhNsN8I )

i20s have lots of airbags, pre-tensioners, active head-restraints etc. So presumably have sensors to support those as well? Given a chance, I'd prefer a simpler vehicle which has less to break.

Yes. I also think (hope) that there is a simple cause behind all these problems, and a relatively simple resolution. As an ordinary owner with no specialised equipment or information it's very frustrating when Hyundai and the "experts" fail even to acknowledge that there is a problem. This has now lasted for over three months; wasting a lot of my time, energy, and petrol.

That's why I'm asking for suggestions about what to get checked during the next visit to the main dealer, please.

Edited by RS2016 on 21/07/2016 at 15:19

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Thu 21 Jul 2016 17:35

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - RS2016

Thanks again and apologies, to both of you. Shows how little I know about modern cars.

Apparently the Hyundai i20 does have yaw-rate & G sensors: www.autohex.net/dtc-help/hyundai/56/2011/16/C1283/

Judging that webpage, any problems with these sensors could lead to nasty problems, so these sensors do seem well worth checking.

Thanks again.

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Thu 21 Jul 2016 13:27

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - RS2016

I don,t quite get it either.If the usb socket/audio system were causing this much trouble,there would be a lot of Airbuses flying around out of control.

Yes, at first it sounds unlikely. However, I've been struggling to understand why the steering varies with time and is different on different days. Normal mechanical systems cannot do that! Also, why the faults are more obvious to me than to Hyundai trained staff at the main dealer.

One possible difference, is that I often replay audio books from USB flash memory sticks.

There are several ways that using the car's USB/audio connector might be affecting the steering:

- Extra power-drain from a supply shared with the car's electronics?

- Extra current through a possibly faulty earthing point?

- Extra power-drain from a shared 5 Volt reference circuit, to power the USB device: Perhaps this same 5 Volt reference also powers some sensors?

- Digital interference from the data signals from the USB device, interfering with data signals from the sensors?

Without any wiring or technical info. about the i20, I can only guess. But these do seem plausible causes.

I have tried a variety of the USB flash devices I commonly use; trying to discover whether perhaps one of my devices is more likely to trigger problems? I've also tried to see whether eg. MP3 files are better / worse than WMA files and to try different data encoding bitrates.

But I think that the i20 has some kind of built-in self-check / self-calibration process: Almost certainly when the ignition is first turned ON; possibly later while the car is in use? Also, it seems to store and keep this calibration for some time after the ignition is turned OFF?

So simply plugging / un-plugging a USB flash memory stick or switching the audio system ON / OFF does not always trigger or remove the problem. Even trying to repeat the same test after several minutes or hours does not always give the same results.

The most reliable way (but still not fool-proof) to trigger the problems, is to turn OFF the ignition while replaying a USB flash memory stick and to leave the car for several hours. Next time the ignition is turned ON, the car's audio system will automatically turn ON and resume replay of the USB flash memory stick; if you're lucky, from the same point in the audio book.

Re-starting the i20 like this, usually puts its steering into the "nasty" mode.

To get out of "nasty" mode: Switch OFF the car's audio and remove the USB flash memory device BEFORE turning the ignition OFF. Leave the car for several hours; possibly until next day?

Re-starting the i20 like this, usually puts its steering into the "better" mode.

But, nothing I've tried so far, has been 100% repeatable: There are too many possible options. For example, if something in the car's computer is perhaps overheating; what about the effect of outside ambient temperature, on different days?

Edited by RS2016 on 21/07/2016 at 13:30

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Fri 22 Jul 2016 01:03

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - Bolt

I would be surprised if the usb was causing problems but could understand a Bluetooth device causing problems,

some tyre pressure sensors send a Bluetooth signal to report pressure in the tyre which can and have been known to interfere with the other electronics on a car, they can apparently be hacked to control a cars electronics

unless the usb is connecting through the Bluetooth signal, the only way it can control/interfere with the internals is by software control not by voltage

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Fri 22 Jul 2016 14:07

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - RS2016

I would be surprised if the usb was causing problems but could understand a Bluetooth device causing problems, some tyre pressure sensors send a Bluetooth signal to report pressure in the tyre which can and have been known to interfere with the other electronics on a car, they can apparently be hacked to control a cars electronics unless the usb is connecting through the Bluetooth signal, the only way it can control/interfere with the internals is by software control not by voltage

Thanks. I am not using any BlueTooth devices. My i20 does not have tyre-pressure sensors. I have tried to check whether my mobile phone(s) are triggering problems: I do sometimes use the SatNav on my phone. But I have not noticed proximity of the mobile phone to the car's dashboard, triggering these car problems. However, I have not completely excluded the possibility that passing close to a mobile phone mast might have an effect? I did recently have one strange experience: While turning sharply, the front passenger door suddenly unlocked. Presumably that is yet another symptom of sensor problems?

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Fri 22 Jul 2016 15:09

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - Bolt

from what you said, As has been mentioned, an earthing problem is more likely to cause multiple electronic problems, and as its had work done on it the electrics should be re examined for connection issues

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Fri 22 Jul 2016 15:53

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - RS2016

from what you said, As has been mentioned, an earthing problem is more likely to cause multiple electronic problems, and as its had work done on it the electrics should be re examined for connection issues

Thanks, yes, particularly if the fault(s) were caused by the crash or crash repair work. There is also the chance that something went wrong before the crash, possibly contributing to the crash, but separate from the actual crash damage?

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Sat 23 Jul 2016 23:35

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - RS2016

Ever heard about the car's audio system affecting its electric power steering? At times, the steering becomes vague and hard to control; possibly because it stays stuck in low-speed (max. assistance) mode? Also, the brakes & steering sometimes behave strangely; sometimes pulling badly to one side; sometimes lurching suddenly to one side. Apparently, plugging a USB memory stick into this car's audio system sometimes seems to stop the electric power steering from working properly; possibly by somehow affecting the signals from wheel-speed sensors? 2012 Hyundai i20 1.2 petrol classic ~20,000 miles. Serviced by main dealer. Following crash repair for mostly cosmetic damage which included the front passenger wheel, wing & bumper cover etc.; the electric power steering & possibly also the brakes have felt different on different days and at different times. Also, engine now has more frequent misfires. Sometimes there now is a smell of oil probably from the exhaust, sometimes with whiff of petrol after parking the car. I now guess that plugging in a USB memory stick to replay an audio book through the car's audio system somehow triggers this difference. I guess that this somehow affects the wheel speed sensors or computer(s). I guess that this stops the power steering from switching properly from slow-speed (max. assistance) to its high-speed (min. assistance) mode, and the brakes/ABS wrongly assume that a wheel is skidding, so can pull to one side or perhaps trigger the stability control? It might also be affecting the engine management? After several attempts, the mechanical wheel and steering alignment are probably at last now correct. But on bad days, the steering & brakes do not feel safe. Does anyone have any ideas what to check please? Have there been other reports of this? So far, Hyundai have not been helpful.

The trigger for these problems may be even simpler than I thought: Rather than any complicated electronic interference or interaction... it seems that simple pressure on the connection panel which holds the i20's audio jack & USB connectors - ordinary pressure of connecting or disconnecting devices - can disrupt the car's control & safety electronics.

Next week, I'll ask the main dealer to inspect the wiring.

If this is a real & common problem, Hyundai may need to do a safety recall?

Edited by RS2016 on 23/07/2016 at 23:37

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Sun 24 Jul 2016 10:44

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - Bolt

Ever heard about the car's audio system affecting its electric power steering? At times, the steering becomes vague and hard to control; possibly because it stays stuck in low-speed (max. assistance) mode? Also, the brakes & steering sometimes behave strangely; sometimes pulling badly to one side; sometimes lurching suddenly to one side. Apparently, plugging a USB memory stick into this car's audio system sometimes seems to stop the electric power steering from working properly; possibly by somehow affecting the signals from wheel-speed sensors? 2012 Hyundai i20 1.2 petrol classic ~20,000 miles. Serviced by main dealer. Following crash repair for mostly cosmetic damage which included the front passenger wheel, wing & bumper cover etc.; the electric power steering & possibly also the brakes have felt different on different days and at different times. Also, engine now has more frequent misfires. Sometimes there now is a smell of oil probably from the exhaust, sometimes with whiff of petrol after parking the car. I now guess that plugging in a USB memory stick to replay an audio book through the car's audio system somehow triggers this difference. I guess that this somehow affects the wheel speed sensors or computer(s). I guess that this stops the power steering from switching properly from slow-speed (max. assistance) to its high-speed (min. assistance) mode, and the brakes/ABS wrongly assume that a wheel is skidding, so can pull to one side or perhaps trigger the stability control? It might also be affecting the engine management? After several attempts, the mechanical wheel and steering alignment are probably at last now correct. But on bad days, the steering & brakes do not feel safe. Does anyone have any ideas what to check please? Have there been other reports of this? So far, Hyundai have not been helpful.

The trigger for these problems may be even simpler than I thought: Rather than any complicated electronic interference or interaction... it seems that simple pressure on the connection panel which holds the i20's audio jack & USB connectors - ordinary pressure of connecting or disconnecting devices - can disrupt the car's control & safety electronics.

Next week, I'll ask the main dealer to inspect the wiring.

If this is a real & common problem, Hyundai may need to do a safety recall?

I wouldn't be surprised if the circuit board is the cause as they are made so thin they bend under the slightest pressure. causing shorts and or bad connections, though the usb in itself I doubt will cause it their could be a voltage short somewhere

Edited by bolt on 24/07/2016 at 10:47

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Sun 24 Jul 2016 22:40

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - RS2016

The trigger for these problems may be even simpler than I thought: Rather than any complicated electronic interference or interaction... it seems that simple pressure on the connection panel which holds the i20's audio jack & USB connectors - ordinary pressure of connecting or disconnecting devices - can disrupt the car's control & safety electronics.

Next week, I'll ask the main dealer to inspect the wiring.

If this is a real & common problem, Hyundai may need to do a safety recall?

I wouldn't be surprised if the circuit board is the cause as they are made so thin they bend under the slightest pressure. causing shorts and or bad connections, though the usb in itself I doubt will cause it their could be a voltage short somewhere

Thanks, yes. I don't know whether the circuit board or film wiring reach this audio panel down next to the cigar lighter, or whether it is connected using ordinary wires. But I do hope this and any other faults are fixed soon. Presence of one or more electrical faults could finally explain why the symptoms have kept changing. If the safety and control circuits of this Hyundai i20 really are so vulnerable, that seems serious; particularly after Hyundai has been so dismissive & unhelpful.

Edited by RS2016 on 24/07/2016 at 22:42

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Fri 29 Jul 2016 22:58

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - RS2016

The trigger for these problems may be even simpler than I thought: Rather than any complicated electronic interference or interaction... it seems that simple pressure on the connection panel which holds the i20's audio jack & USB connectors - ordinary pressure of connecting or disconnecting devices - can disrupt the car's control & safety electronics.

Next week, I'll ask the main dealer to inspect the wiring.

If this is a real & common problem, Hyundai may need to do a safety recall?

I wouldn't be surprised if the circuit board is the cause as they are made so thin they bend under the slightest pressure. causing shorts and or bad connections, though the usb in itself I doubt will cause it their could be a voltage short somewhere

Thanks, yes. I don't know whether the circuit board or film wiring reach this audio panel down next to the cigar lighter, or whether it is connected using ordinary wires. But I do hope this and any other faults are fixed soon. Presence of one or more electrical faults could finally explain why the symptoms have kept changing. If the safety and control circuits of this Hyundai i20 really are so vulnerable, that seems serious; particularly after Hyundai has been so dismissive & unhelpful.

I may have been mistaken: It seems that my own audio connection cable (jack to jack) had an intermittent fault at one end. So although the car's steering fault(s) appear to be related to the car's USB/audio system, the exact location of the car's fault is still a mystery.

In the absence of alternatives, I'm planning to continue cautiously using the car WITHOUT using its USB/audio connection panel; to see whether the car's steering then behaves better. If it does behave better, this will be more evidence of a link with the USB/audio connection panel or functions.

I'd welcome any other suggestions.

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Thu 25 Aug 2016 23:11

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol Classic 2012 - i20 Electric Power Steering - USB Audio Fault? - RS2016

The trigger for these problems may be even simpler than I thought: Rather than any complicated electronic interference or interaction... it seems that simple pressure on the connection panel which holds the i20's audio jack & USB connectors - ordinary pressure of connecting or disconnecting devices - can disrupt the car's control & safety electronics.

Next week, I'll ask the main dealer to inspect the wiring.

If this is a real & common problem, Hyundai may need to do a safety recall?

I wouldn't be surprised if the circuit board is the cause as they are made so thin they bend under the slightest pressure. causing shorts and or bad connections, though the usb in itself I doubt will cause it their could be a voltage short somewhere

Thanks, yes. I don't know whether the circuit board or film wiring reach this audio panel down next to the cigar lighter, or whether it is connected using ordinary wires. But I do hope this and any other faults are fixed soon. Presence of one or more electrical faults could finally explain why the symptoms have kept changing. If the safety and control circuits of this Hyundai i20 really are so vulnerable, that seems serious; particularly after Hyundai has been so dismissive & unhelpful.

I may have been mistaken: It seems that my own audio connection cable (jack to jack) had an intermittent fault at one end. So although the car's steering fault(s) appear to be related to the car's USB/audio system, the exact location of the car's fault is still a mystery.

In the absence of alternatives, I'm planning to continue cautiously using the car WITHOUT using its USB/audio connection panel; to see whether the car's steering then behaves better. If it does behave better, this will be more evidence of a link with the USB/audio connection panel or functions.

I'd welcome any other suggestions.

In fact, even using just the radio is enough to trigger this problem: After a few days of driving this i20 with its radio turned OFF, it steering became much improved. But using the radio, especially if the radio was ON when the ignition was first turned ON, made the steering revert to its faulty state.

Annoyingly, none of the experts, including a particularly hopeless "independent inspector" have been able to replicate this problem: Probably because they are not familiar with Hyundai i20s and they are not good at following instructions?

Interestingly, although its steering was very different, a brand new 2016 Hyundai i20 seemed to suffer from a similar problem: If its radio was ON when the ignition was first turned ON, its steering became vague and over-sensitive.

I'll start a new thread about this. Thanks everyone.

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