I bought the Honda Shuttle - private, mint 3.5 years old 33000 miles Price £8k. One lady driver. Great value. We now have 2 Hondas and I am a total convert.
Bearing in mind value for money, I think used Hondas are the best.
Comparing it to my (now sold) 7 year old Beemer, the Beemer seems heavy, over-engineered, complex and very expensive to run. The thought of not being ripped-off any more by franchised dealers (in order to keep up the stamps) is such a relief!
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Your not a bore Dogbreath, It's called brand loyalty for a very good reason, *reliability*. The Hondas I have owned over the last 12 years have cost me very little as I have often said before in the BR.
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Although i like some Honda's (and have owed one in the past), I would be happier sat in a BMW in the event off a accident, by your criticism of the BMW being over engineered, as a maintenance engineer i consider this to equate to 'will last for ever' again a plus point in my eyes. Yes i agree a heavy car means slower, thirstier, and you do pay a little extra at service for the badge.
By the way i have never had a BMW (due to being RWD)but do have a old A4, and if given a choice between any of the last three Japanese cars i have owed (been happy with them all)i will still chose the A4.
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I'm always surprised how poor the BMW interior trim is, compared with a SAAB for example. 10 year old models look threadbare if the cloth option has been used, whereas I've seen 180,000 mile Saab 900s that look like new.
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Honda engineering, design and innovation is excellent. Honda's are good to own but not that brilliant. The service intervals, cost of Honda dealer servicing, cost of parts and heavy depreciation are all factors that have to be considered.
Plus the geriatric(?) image will probably never change.
I received a letter from my local dealer on Saturday offering a promotion on new Honda's at trade invoice price. Doesn't say alot for their popularity/desirability imho.
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I think Honda build some fantastic cars, not to mention probably the best engines in the world. I got my new Civic Type-S two weeks ago and it has to be said, it nails my A4 on every front - equipment, build and performance. You wouldn't get nearly as much car for the equivlently priced A3! As for the geriatric image - I thick the Integra, Accord and Civic Type-Rs have buried that!
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Bet that's not across the whole range.
I know what you mean by the geriatric image, and by saying that i am not referring to myself. They are usually owned by older silver haired sensible people and that is the reason they tend to be looked after and not thrashed, that is apart from the type R's, VTI's and the S2000's possibly.
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Absolutely agree with this thread.
My dad had a Legend (fab luxobarge) and talked me into buying a Honda a few years ago. And while the Accord may geriatric image (why though - they are a great drive and nippy!) - I bought a Prelude (definitely not an old man's car!) and it was so much fun to drive, not at all outrageous for main dealer servicing in glamourous Tooting and a bit of a babe magnet too!
Alas, I ended up buying a flat so it's back to hamburgers and rice krispies for the time being - but I'm saving my pennies again for another speedy Honda. In fact, let's wait and see what happens come April bonus time...
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If Hondas as are so well engineered, designed etc why do they keep nicking all the ideas from the German Manufacturers.
My mother in law has a Honda Civic Aero-deck and to be honest it is the worst car I have ever driven, apart from my old Chevette.
The interior is very cheap, the leather feels awful and is already wearing after 3 yrs, the steering pump has already failed, the tailgate is rotted through from the inside and the whole thing rattles. Honda refused at first to pay for the steering pump because they said the car had been underused, soon changed their tone when a legal letter arrived. They have refused to deal with the tailgate rusting as they said it has been badly treated, the thing is valeted once a week without fail.
I personally buy German cars because they are well built, reliable, over engineered, safer and their engineers actually come up with ideas instead of nicking them from someone else.
I'm not German by the way.
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Dogbreath,
The next car will be a Honda! The Blackbird (bike) has now done 41500 miles and I have just paid out for the first thing to be done to it in 4 years other than servicing. Two new disks on the front and 3 sets of pads, £449 plus some pence. This may seem to be extortinate but its not to me, a guy at work has just spent £600 plus on two new front disks for his WRX for a track day and expects to come home with them warped. The nearside front wheel-bearing on the Mondewoe cost us £90 plus due to not being able to get it off mainly.
Yep go for Honda. By the way how old are you? I am now 46 so am coming into the Honda owning bracket.
Sorry about the spelling, just got back from Birmingham and havnet spoken to SWMBO yet so in a bit of a hurry.
Bill
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Bill,
Just when Honda was getting good publicity you had to mention old men and Honda's, shame on you.
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Jud
sometimes I do post tounge very firmly in cheek. Having said that I understand that owners of the 3rd fastest production bike in the world are getting on a bit. Oh god I dont want to get old, I just want to own a Honda.
Bill
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I am 40. I don\'t care about the geriatric image. The fact that Hondas are unfashionable means better value for me buyind second hand.
Tell me more about life with the Blackbird. I have a BMW RS1100SE and have often wondered about the Blackbird.
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Dogbreath,
40000 miles in less than 4 years. Normally dont ride in snow and ice, if frost on road outside I take the car, normally do about 1300 miles a month. The best bike I have ever owned, having said that had to put two new disks on the front this week and 3 sets of pads that cost 450 quid for EBC's. BUT that is the first time I have done anything other than service it. Went to the NEC for the MAINTEC exhibition yesterday and got 46 to the gallon at speeds of 85-90. What can I say it has done everything I ever wanted and more. Gave it a bit of welly today and 160 on the clock in seconds. Hell what do you want, 46 MPG, acceleration better than 99.5% of other machines on the road and a top end of 180, AND its so easy to ride around town. Fool not to get one. And the first chain lasted 36000 miles.
Bill
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Don't knock Honda engineering !!
Honda Safety is first class, and are the only manufacturer taking future pedestrian legislation seriously (See www.EuroNCAP.com).
I have owned many Honda's (35 years old), and nothing can beat the thrill of the Accord Type R going to the red line.
I think that the geriatric image will fade when people wake up to the fact that German cars are overpriced and not that good.
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I have some perspective on this, since we own a Honda Accord 2.0 and BMW 328 of similar age. The optioned-up Beemer cost almost twice as much as the Honda, and there's no question on the value front. In terms of general refinement, the competence of the chassis and all-round engineering, the Honda gets admirably close in many ways.
The 328 enjoys far higher "perceived quality" - the doors and boot close with a weighty thunk and the cabin fitments are much classier - this is a major strength of German cars, not just a function of the price differential. We assume, erroneously, that the surface presentation must be reflected in the underskin engineering. There is often a disparity - there certainly seems to be with VW at the moment.
The BMW has required approximately £1K of repairs under warranty (parking sensors and climate control) in its 3 years, the Honda none. However, which has proved the more prudent buy? Almost certainly the BMW. The Honda needs servicing more regularly (the last major visit cost £300), suffers far heavier depreciation and sips barely less fuel than the long-legged BMW. Small, popular prestige cars must be the most sensible buys of all, despite seeeming to offer relatively little metal for the initial outlay.
In the end, I won't be buying a Honda next time because their approach to performance cars is too purist for my liking; maybe it's the dreaded approach of 30, but I want a Germanic blend of luxury and refinement with power, not a noisy, torque-free Type-R which has to be thrashed like a four-wheeled motorbike.
So which ones are really the old men's cars?
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If Hondas are so well engineered why do they have to employ acoustic engineers to fine tune their cars so they sound like a German engineered car when you close a door etc.
I agree that the engines in Hondas appear to be very good but have the Japanese ever heard of Torque because their Type-R engines don't appear to have any.
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Comparing a high revving Honda type R to a BMW is a bit silly - they are two cars using two engines with very different characteristics. The enjoyment of one has to be the 'go' from almost any rpm; the enojoyment of the other has to be the idea of continuing accelerating to 7, 8000 rpm. My Uncle's Cappucino - yes its far removed from a 'proper' sports model - is limited at 9000rpm and it is the near-bike feel he enjoys when driving it hard. Back to the Honda/BMW discussion - they are surely both well engineered but each is quite different compared to the other?
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Comparing a high revving Honda type R to a BMW is a bit silly - they are two cars using two engines with very different characteristics. The enjoyment of one has to be the 'go' from almost any rpm; the enojoyment of the other has to be the idea of continuing accelerating to 7, 8000 rpm. My Uncle's Cappucino - yes its far removed from a 'proper' sports model - is limited at 9000rpm and it is the near-bike feel he enjoys when driving it hard. Back to the Honda/BMW discussion - they are surely both well engineered but each is quite different compared to the other?
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I think that you will find all car manufacturers employ hoards of Acoustic engineers to fine tune their cars to sound like German cars - even the German makers!
The torque issue - sure a 2 litre 4 cylinder will never equal a v6 or straight six for torque (Except in a Lexus IS200), The actual figures for a Honda engine in peak terms are identical to almost any other 2litre (BMW, Ford M-B etc). But now Honda has solved this with i-VTEC - Something that the Accord Type R does not have - but then I like the distinct engine note change and changing gears by myself.
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I think that you will find all car manufacturers employ hoards of Acoustic engineers to fine tune their cars to sound like German cars - even the German makers!
I don't know if anyone saw the making of Lexus a few years ago but they had a team of acoustic engineers sticking bits of rubber all over the inside of the doors because they couldn't get the doors to sound like a Mercs when they were slammed shut. It was suggested that they used better quality materials but this was ruled out due to the cost.
Maybe one of the reasons why Mercs and BMW's cost more than Hondas.
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