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Hi RobJP i have just checked, and indeed it does have the EA 189 engine.
I was just suprised it was not included in Honest John list/Skoda list.
The supply of information seems very slow.
The motor journalists that provide so much praise and technical information on the VW Deisels seem very quiet about the technical solutions required.
I continue to be puzzled as to how the exhaust treatment can be electronically switched off with the gases running through the system not affecting the emissions equipment, and when the recall swithes the system back on will the hardware be up to it.
Of course I would not trust VW to get it right, and can see the need to get compensation through the legal route, which will of course benefit the legal profession, for me I just wanted a car that does what ithe sales blurb professed and all reviews reiterated, which was the reason I purchased this particular car in the first place.
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Unfortunately, you have NO choice about 'trusting' VAG to get it fixed.
On the plus side, it is pretty clear that the 'cheat' software is ONLY in use during testing. So should make no (or minimal) difference in actual driving.
Finally, you cannot expect the various motoring journalists to get every single piece of data correct - and updated continually - as new information becomes available. After all, if you hadn't even thought of going to Skoda UK's website to check (and information on how to check your car HAS been out for a few days) then you can't really expect perfection from everyone else.
As to legal route for compensation, you'll have to show (and quantify) losses before you can do that.
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If you are happy with your cars as they are now then make sure you know exactly what will be done and how this will affect the car - performance, economy, drivability, 2nd hand values etc before the modifications are made ... it will be too late afterwards ....
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Hi Smileyman, it is exactly my thought, that I do need to know
what will be done and its effect, but how do I find that out?
Will independant testing confirm the modified performance?
Will the modified performance be published by the motor journalists who quoted the cheat information? Will the modificions affect the maintenance regime of the exhaust system, with the resulting cost falling on the owner later on?
With regard to omitting listing cars I wondered whether the list came from VW and deliberately missed Roomster (and other models) that may be difficult to fix.
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Since the cars/engines fitted with Siemens ECUs aren't affected, the otherwise identical cars/engines with reflashed Bosch ECUs will give the same economy/emissions/performance, ie same as before.
Without going ito computer programming, it may be difficult to understand the concept of a piece of code that's never actually accessed - that's how it is at least in Europe - the situation in the US is quite different because their NOx limit is so much lower than the EU.
VW Group, all it's brands, will know which ECU type is fitted to each engine, that's why some specific cars are excluded from the recall.
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Richroom : I did put this in my previous post, but I'll try to make it clearer.
It appears that the 'cheat' software ONLY operated when it sensed that the car was undergoing a test : emissions test being the classic case.
As such, under normal driving, the cheat software was not in use.
Therefore, if the cheat software is going to be eliminated from the ECU, then you will most likely see NO difference at all in your everyday use of the car.
Apart from that, new information is still coming out, the method for fixing anything further on the cars (for example further catalysts), what (IF ANY) effect the changes MIGHT have on performance, economy, etc. You'll just have ot wait and be patient, like everyone else.
Anything else you are saying regarding additional costs that you MIGHT have, modified performance that MIGHT happen, is speculation. Which is utterly pointless.
In the meantime, just keep on driving your car, and don't stress about something which MIGHT make no difference at all to you, your car, your fuel bills. VAG will be in touch with you about it eventally, but it will take a number of months before they can get all the cars in.
There are 1.2 million cars and vans that they've got to do in the UK. Not everyone can be first in line.
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Richroom : I did put this in my previous post, but I'll try to make it clearer.
It appears that the 'cheat' software ONLY operated when it sensed that the car was undergoing a test : emissions test being the classic case.
As such, under normal driving, the cheat software was not in use.
Therefore, if the cheat software is going to be eliminated from the ECU, then you will most likely see NO difference at all in your everyday use of the car.
Rob seems to have missed the point. The "cheat software" is whats required to pass the test. So the cheat software needs to be enabled all the time. That WILL effect normal driving as the previous normal profile is the illegal part.
What is likely is a hasty reworking of the firmware that passes tests that now will be conducted by VOSA directly, the gov have already stated no more independent testing will take place. Those tests will require the previous declared results to be acheived. The management at VW are keeping their fingers crossed that performance wont affected too badly, but stated today that some performance will be lost.
Personally, I think they are a bit deluded with their wishful thinking. Although european cars will be fixed, the american market is going to be very difficult if not impossible to rework to epa standards.
Edited by brum on 08/10/2015 at 21:21
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Rob seems to have missed the point. The "cheat software" is whats required to pass the test. So the cheat software needs to be enabled all the time. That WILL effect normal driving as the previous normal profile is the illegal part.
It only 'cheats' when it's doing the test. There isn't any effect on normal driving.
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Its the cheat that passes the test. Therefore the cheat (or equivalent software) needs to be enabled all the time. The normal driving software is incapable of passing the test and so needs to be binned.
Edited by brum on 08/10/2015 at 22:00
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The normal driving software is incapable of passing the test and so needs to be binned.
And for similar, but legal reasons, that applies to every other brand of car - it's the test that needs to be binned and replaced because the test conditions are too far away from normal driving - as it is from 2016 with full mandatory implementation by 2017.
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Its the cheat that passes the test. Therefore the cheat (or equivalent software) needs to be enabled all the time. The normal driving software is incapable of passing the test and so needs to be binned.
But that has no effect in normal driving. It's only on test the software does stuff it shouldn't be so in normal driving it has no affect on the car.
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Rob seems to have missed the point. The "cheat software" is whats required to pass the test. So the cheat software needs to be enabled all the time. That WILL effect normal driving as the previous normal profile is the illegal part.
It only 'cheats' when it's doing the test. There isn't any effect on normal driving.
If it doesn't affect normal driving, then why does it turn itself off after the emissions test is complete? I think it would be highly unlikely that VAG would just offer a 'software patch' to keep the 'cheat' mode on all the time, as that would then either use copious amounts of AdBlue, and/or reduce engine power significantly (requiring more fuel to be used to provide the same performance as before), putting the owner at a financial disadvantage in terms of running costs and the second-hand value of the car.
My belief is that significant (expensive) modifications will need to be made to some models to effectively bring them up to a similar standard to the Euro-6 ones that (supposedly) do pass the tests without the cheat software; whether VAG will need the AdBlue on the Euro-5 engines, I'm not sure, but if they do, they will likely have to fund their usage for the lifetime of each car to avoid seriously high litigation.
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At last some sense from Engineer Andy, thank you, I am sure it will be a costly alteration and not the 6.6billion divided by 1.1million cars they first proposed! seems VW not so good at Maths.
On skoda list of recalls of course the popular Fabia used tdi but is missing from the list.
On the skoda engines there is no ADblue so this would be an expensive hardware solution to install.
I am still puzzled how the car running around now with emmisions controls switched off does not choke up the egr and dpf, as the gases are not reburnt in engine?
I wonder what independant monitoring of VW fix will give the consumer confidence that VW has not botched the fix at the future expense of repairs to the emissions system being footed by the consumer.
With the emissions systems turned off there are plenty of reports of expensive dpf repairs necessary to the cars at aroung 85000miles have these been precipitated by the control being off or is there another computer scam going on, and should not the fitters repairing the emissions have noticed the control variances.
I like my new roomster but the scandal has completely taken the enjoyment of a new car away from me.
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At last some sense from Engineer Andy, thank you, I am sure it will be a costly alteration and not the 6.6billion divided by 1.1million cars they first proposed! seems VW not so good at Maths.
On skoda list of recalls of course the popular Fabia used tdi but is missing from the list.
On the skoda engines there is no ADblue so this would be an expensive hardware solution to install.
I am still puzzled how the car running around now with emmisions controls switched off does not choke up the egr and dpf, as the gases are not reburnt in engine?
I wonder what independant monitoring of VW fix will give the consumer confidence that VW has not botched the fix at the future expense of repairs to the emissions system being footed by the consumer.
With the emissions systems turned off there are plenty of reports of expensive dpf repairs necessary to the cars at aroung 85000miles have these been precipitated by the control being off or is there another computer scam going on, and should not the fitters repairing the emissions have noticed the control variances.
I like my new roomster but the scandal has completely taken the enjoyment of a new car away from me.
Because there's so many different factors to "emissions", all affected by different aspects of the engine and it's systems - CO2, HC, NOx, particulates are all different. The emissions systems weren't just "switched off", they were mapped to different settings.
The EGR is there to reduce NOx - but it also reduces economy, power and driveability - so operating the EGR less often is a cheat which keeps economy, power and driveability up - and the EGR will choke up LESS is it's operated less often.
I placed an order for a Touareg TDI before the scandal broke - I considered cancelling but decided to go ahead anyway as nothing else suits my needs nearly as well. You bought your Roomster for more reasons than it's emission test results, just enjoy everything else.
Edited by RT on 09/10/2015 at 17:08
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I don't think the 3.0 litre V6 in the Touareg is affected by all this, is it?
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I don't think the 3.0 litre V6 in the Touareg is affected by all this, is it?
Not technically, but it will be tainted by the scandal IF I was only planning to keep it a short while.
Whilst I understand the concerns from VW owners there's so much inaccurate BS around in the media that they should start a class action for mis-reporting!
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I like my new roomster but the scandal has completely taken the enjoyment of a new car away from me.
Other things being equal, there is a three way trade of between economy (linked to CO2), NOx, and paticulates. A four way one if you include performance.
The 'cheat' mode is actually normal running, when the emissions control is defeated or reduced and the settings are weighted towards performance and economy, which VW is very good at - now we know how they did it.
Nobody can tell you exactly what VW propose to do or what effect it will have until they disclose it. They might not even have worked it out yet since there will no doubt be a number of options. And it won't be the same for all cars - some have the SCR system using adblue, some don't. They have the option to increase adblue use on the SCR-equipped cars, although that will increase CO2 (a product of the urea/NOx reaction and may (reportedly) mean that the small 12 litre adblue tank needs refilling as frequently as every 2,000 miles.
It seems likely that they will opt for a software change rather than changing/adding hardware for reasons of practicality and cost.
If they knew how to make the engines comply while being just as economical, powerful and drivable, and/or without using significantly more adblue, then they would have done it in the first place wouldn't they?
I suspect that the engines run leaner and with less exhaust recirculation in normal use than in test mode, and that the SCR-equippped ones use less adblue. Lean running helps economy, but creates hot-spots in the combustion chamber that increase NOx (the problem emission that test mode reduces). Exhaust gas recirculation is also about reducing temperatures in the combustion chamber.
It's not clear how they will manage the 'recall' - but one option is presumably just not to have the 'upgrade' in which case your car will stay as it is. They probably also intend to do upgrades when the cars are brought in for service. Whether they will agree not to do it remains to be seen - it's your car, so perhaps they can't force it on you.
All speculation at this stage.
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All speculation at this stage.
Not all speculation - the cars already equipped with Adblue aren't affected, in Europe - Adblue consumption would be a lot less than 12 litres in 2,000 miles.
What is clear is that the media seems unable to differentiate the effects of this issue between USA and Europe where solutions will be different because of differences in permitted NOx levels - and the wider problem in Europe of the EU emissions test being unfit for purpose and affecting all brands.
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"... the wider problem in Europe of the EU emissions test being unfit for purpose and affecting all brands."
I must admit I wasn't up to date with the details of this. The following highights some of the problems with the test and why it is, to all intents and purposes, useless.
tinyurl.com/qxmqyn7
The article also explains why cars from manufacturers like Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo, Jeep, Mazda and Mitsubishi all fail the relevant emission standards in real-life driving. It's only VW (so far) that's been found to be sufficiently brazen to cheat the tests in a really big way.
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Short of having a special 'test mode', when the emissions standards are based on a test manufacturers will optimise for the test rather than the average for typical use.
It's an inevitable, if unintended consequence, of the tests as they are designed.
Whether they should be allowed to over-inflate tyres, disable air conditioning, alternators, etc and remove wing mirrors and roof rails is debatable - it doesn't seem sensible.
Edited by Manatee on 10/10/2015 at 14:59
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i have recieved a letter in the post that my car is efected - just got to wait for the car to be called into the garage to be fixed
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Whether they should be allowed to over-inflate tyres, disable air conditioning, alternators, etc and remove wing mirrors and roof rails is debatable - it doesn't seem sensible
The cars as tested have to be fitted with all the usual kit and tyres inflated to the normal pressure.
They don't have the AC on for the test.
Without an alternator the stop/start would not work so the car would get a poorer result.
Roof rails and wing mirrors removed, why? The test is carried out in a lab on a rolling road so no wind resistance.
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It's making me laff. It's an interesting question when is the car cheating. When the software detects it's being tested or when it's in normal driving mode, it's like saying is the glass half full or half empty. I think it's aways cheating
VW didnt want to use SCR's as they are costly and the estimate was $50 per car extra to fit. So you have been cheated to Save VW $50 x 11million.
The story as I see it is they rolled out accross europe without any hitches the Lean NOx Trap (LNT) instead. This basically is a Catalytic converter that stores the NOx. Once full the Cat burn off the NOx. The burn off requires an extra burst of fuel. In the US which has higher standards and yearly testing thing didn't go so smoothly.
VW decided the only thing to be done would be develop a cheat system for the US and so as not to make the rest of the world leftout cheat them too.
So how does it work? basically the LNT runs rich for a few seconds every time the LNT is full. The down side of this that the MPG of your car is reduced if you inject fuel to often. So rather than performance being affected as reported it's your MPG being reduced.
So now you understand what is happen it's simple to conclude that VW simply stop the fuel enrichment during normal driving (increasing MPG) and only wasted fuel during testing.
So as you see if you have the cheat software US or EUROPE your going to be cheated on your MPG if fixed is only to fix the software.
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If your MPG drops surely you are increasing your emissions. Burn more fuel and the combustion product simply has to be pushed out the 'poop chute'.
More fuel less miles = more emitted garbage.
So the great "fix" if it worsens your emissions (or trues them up) simply increases your fuel consumption.
Ye cannae break the laws of physics jim....
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It is physics and yes reducing NOx in this way does increase the Co2 emmisions, but diesels are good on this point.
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Whether they should be allowed to over-inflate tyres, disable air conditioning, alternators, etc and remove wing mirrors and roof rails is debatable - it doesn't seem sensible
The cars as tested have to be fitted with all the usual kit and tyres inflated to the normal pressure.
They don't have the AC on for the test.
Without an alternator the stop/start would not work so the car would get a poorer result.
Roof rails and wing mirrors removed, why? The test is carried out in a lab on a rolling road so no wind resistance.
Skid, the lab test rollers are programmed to simulate road and wind resistance using correction factors supplied by the manufacturer. These are obtained from free roll tests which are carried out by the manufacturer on their flat test track, repeated in opposite directions and even taking the wind speed and direction into account. This is a stage where some creative cheating can take place.
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6a00e54ed05fc2883301543691b54c970c-800wi
New VW ready for testing, naturally nothing taken off
Edited by slkfanboy on 20/10/2015 at 17:33
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