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BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - carguy77

Hi All,

My son is 18 and only recently passed his driving test and he has now received a fixed penalty notice for 6 points for driving without insurance.

Is it right that if he accepts this he will have his licence revoked because he is a new driver and have to do his test again?

I am looking for ways to avoid this as this is not my sons fault. I had arranged for him to be insured on my vehicle and unfortunately something has clearly gone wrong and because of it he was not insured. Basically it was my fault and not my son's so i'm trying to make amends.

I'm going to do some digging on the net but if anyone can help me I would be grateful.

BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - RT

Hi All,

My son is 18 and only recently passed his driving test and he has now received a fixed penalty notice for 6 points for driving without insurance.

Is it right that if he accepts this he will have his licence revoked because he is a new driver and have to do his test again?

I am looking for ways to avoid this as this is not my sons fault. I had arranged for him to be insured on my vehicle and unfortunately something has clearly gone wrong and because of it he was not insured. Basically it was my fault and not my son's so i'm trying to make amends.

I'm going to do some digging on the net but if anyone can help me I would be grateful.

If it's "not your son's fault" he shouldn't accept the fixed penalty but go to magistrate's court, plead not guilty and defend the case.

But since that course will se a more severe penalty if found guilty, you/he need to take professional advice.

Edited by RT on 12/09/2015 at 15:45

BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - FP

It IS his son's fault, from a legal perspective. He is 18 and is deemed to have full adult responsibility.

He cannot plead not guilty - he has broken a law which is totally cut-and-dried. He cannot argue he was insured, which he would have to do.

BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - FP

According to

www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endorsements/new-drivers

"Your licence will be revoked if you get 6 or more points within 2 years of passing your test."

That seems pretty clear to me.

The OP says, "Is it right that if he accepts this he will have his licence revoked..." I don't see how accepting it or not comes into it. He wasn't insured. That is indefensible - it is an absolute offence.

If the case is dealt with in a Magistrates' Court there may be an opportunity to present extenuating circumstances and/or ask for an alternative punishment. I believe this is referred to as a "special reasons" argument.

Whether or not a specialist lawyer may help is something the OP will need to consider.

BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - Dwight Van Driver

Using a vehicle without Insurance is an absolute liabilty offence, mens rea not involved. You either have it or you don't. No argument.

As mentioned ^^^^^^^ one has the right to contest the FPN at a Magistrates Court.

One can see why it is being explored to avoid the points in this case - to save the sibling from being taken off the road under the new driver rules.

Whilst I do not give much hope of this being achieved under the circumstances if taken to Court then my Wilkinson Traffic Law 24 Edition Page 1/708 (10.79):

"Courts have also found special reasons (conviction but no points)in instances where there is a belief in the existence of cover and a particular explanation for ignorance of the lack of cover" (No specific precedent mentioned).

But the defendant must show that he was some way mislead. An honest but groundless belief that the policy covered a particular use cannot amount to a special reason (Rennison vKnowler [1947])

The only other avenue for investigation would be to contact the Insurance Company issing the certificate to see if under the circumstanes if they would be prepared to consider themselves 'ar risk' in relation to the sons use on the time/date in question. If so then no Insurance offence.

dvd

page

BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - Avant

"I had arranged for him to be insured on my vehicle and unfortunately something has clearly gone wrong and because of it he was not insured."

This sounds vague: you'll have to be much more precise if you are trying to prove, in the words quoted by DVD above, 'a belief in the existence of cover and a particular explanation for ignorance of the lack of cover'.

What exactly 'has clearly gone wrong'? If the insurer gave you to understand that you were covered, you may have a case.

BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - Simon
I agree with the posts above. If your son gets convicted his licence will get revoked under the new driver rules. Surely then the easiest and possibly cheapest solution is for him to just retake his test and put it down to experience.
BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - Falkirk Bairn
Surely then the easiest and possibly cheapest solution is for him to just retake his test and put it down to experience.

It is a lot worse than that - 17 yr old wanting cover after driving without insurance!! Any premium will be eye watering - only specialist insurers would cover such an individual - household name insurers would refuse cover.

BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - carguy77

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all of the responses which are really helpful.

I understand what everyone says about strict liability and that he will have to plead guilty and thanks Dwight Van for the heads up on the special Reasons.

I've done some research on this and what you say seems to be backed up

http://www.motordefencelawyers.co.uk/motoring-offences/no-insurance/

I think we're going to have to go down the line of refusing the fixed penalty and request a court hearing so that we can ask the court for the special reasons not give him the penalty points, as I figure that we can't end up any worse off (apart from financially) and I've got to do anything that i can as otherwise its unfair on my son.

Anyway thanks for the advice (some more constructive than others) ;-)

BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - skidpan

I am looking for ways to avoid this as this is not my sons fault. I had arranged for him to be insured on my vehicle and unfortunately something has clearly gone wrong and because of it he was not insured. Basically it was my fault and not my son's so i'm trying to make amends.

Posters have asked but you have not replied.

So come on, tell us what went so wrong, you may get clearer advice based on that.

BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - galileo

I am looking for ways to avoid this as this is not my sons fault. I had arranged for him to be insured on my vehicle and unfortunately something has clearly gone wrong and because of it he was not insured. Basically it was my fault and not my son's so i'm trying to make amends.

Posters have asked but you have not replied.

So come on, tell us what went so wrong, you may get clearer advice based on that.

Similarly, was it an ANPR camera that picked up the car, rather than his driving? There are lots of these about except maybe right out in the sticks.

BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - carguy77
What went wrong?

It was a PC using an ANPR camera that picked him up and told him that he wasn't insured. The ANPR camera was on the police car itself and we're not in the sticks, we're in Leicester.

Insofar as what went wrong, I cocked up when I spoke to the insurer and haven't properly included him as a named driver on the policy, so it is entirely my fault,

Hope this answers the question.
BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - Cris_on_the_gas
What went wrong? It was a PC using an ANPR camera that picked him up and told him that he wasn't insured. The ANPR camera was on the police car itself and we're not in the sticks, we're in Leicester. Insofar as what went wrong, I cocked up when I spoke to the insurer and haven't properly included him as a named driver on the policy, so it is entirely my fault, Hope this answers the question.

Not entirely.

If it was your car and insured for you to drive it would not ping an ANPR.

If it pinged on the ANPR then as it's your car suggests that you have not got insurance on it or the MID is not up to date.

BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - Simon
It is a lot worse than that - 17 yr old wanting cover after driving without insurance!! Any premium will be eye watering - only specialist insurers would cover such an individual - household name insurers would refuse cover.

He is going to get convicted of having no insurance anyway and will have to declare the fact regardless of the points/revocation of his licence. I can't see any way to escape that fact now whats done is done.
BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - RobJP

Insofar as what went wrong, I cocked up when I spoke to the insurer and haven't properly included him as a named driver on the policy, so it is entirely my fault,

If the insurance company have the conversation with you on record, then it might be worthwhile your son entering a not guilty plea (if still possible), and you standing up in court, presenting that record of the conversation, explaining the error that has caused it all, and apologising for the matter.

Whilst other posters are correct in saying that it is an 'absolute' offence, leniency (or even an absolute discharge) is within the powers of magistrates, judges, etc.

BMW 5 Series - Avoiding new driver licence revoked - concrete

Has everyone missed what chris_on_the-gas said? An ANPR camera would not ping if the car was insured, even if an elephant were driving it!

So clearly the vehicle involved was NOT insured at the time of the incident. Which mean both father and son have probably been driving illegally for some time. I accept this may be an inadvertant error, but it seems to be the case. How do the police know who was driving? Was the vehicle stopped there and then? A real muddle this one.

I think DVD is right, try your insurance company to see if they will help. Presumably you paid the premium to have your son added. This should be a clue to indicate if you were on risk or not. Lots of variables here. I feel sorry for the young lad who probably had no idea he was uninsured. If you gather all the information you can, explain your case well and throw yourselves upon the mercy of the court they would be pretty heartless to impose the full penalty allowed in law. Either way it could be an expensive lesson in dealing with the details correctly. Best of luck and tell us how you get on.

Cheers Concrete