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Are the additives combustible?-if not,you're getting less fuel.
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After all the years telling us to use Shell Ultimate and BP Super Plus by HJ, suddenly his old column is telling us the opposite!!!
I agree with HJ though, I always use Shell Nitro in my car and I've got points on my licence to prove how good it is.
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I understood the only difference was different retailers had different additive packs added by the tanker driver at the point of delivery. The fuel having come from the same source.
A guy that used to deliver fuel (I don't know how long ago) told me this was bunkum.
I find no difference between supermarket and 'premium' fuel in either performance or economy. That's measured tankful to tankful and the calculation done manually (I don't trust the onboard computer).
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I heard the difference is the impact on the engine, the branded fuels being better, due to additives.,
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I don't buy the "all fuels are the same " story- heard it all before from fuel company reps.
Cheap UK supermarket diesel always gave me less mpg than branded fuel.
Cheap UK supermarket low-sulphur city diesel was even worse.
I therefore assume that UK supermarket fuel is cheap for a reason.
UK diesel is different to french diesel.
We used to travel regularly to France via Dover -Boulogne speedferry before moving over here. Always arranged to arrive in Boulogne with a nearly empty fuel tank, this was when diesel was really cheap in France compared with the UK. So straight to Auchan supermarket to fill up.
On the way to Dover from Norfolk the fuel computer would not read more than 45-46 mpg on branded fuel no matter what I did or how I drove.
As soon as filled with french diesel and back on the autoroute heading west, the fuel computer read 51-52 mpg, so regularly that it got to be a family joke, MOH couldn't see the fuel readout but always said "bet it's doing 52 now eh?" and it was.
It also smells different, a stronger pong, more like diesel used to smell in the UK.
Same car, same driver, same speed, different fuel.
Very unscientific I know but that's what happened.
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<< UK diesel is different to french diesel. >>
Ah yes, I think that is a different proposition from the one put by the other posters - they were saying that UK fuels all come from the same UK refineries, with different additives according to the retail outlets. French fuels will come from different sources, with probably a different demand profile and a different cracking pattern.
Thirty years ago when ICI marketed petrol, it had a distinctly individual smell which was allegedly due to a high cyclopentadiene content. It was one way to handle the output from the Wilton refinery which was more into hydrocarbons for plastics production.
But I find it odd that your diesel consumption should vary that much.
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Back in the mid 90s I used to have a nissan micra 16 valve and I used supermarket fuel
after a while one of the valves burnt out which I am convinced was caused by using supermarket fuel, fast forward 10 years and a Renault modus saw me making fairly regular trips to Luton airport on one occasion desperate need to fill up so went to the nearest petrol station ( supermarket) , I noticed a drop of about 12mpg , I wasn't driving any different and as soon as I needed to fil up again I used non supermarket fuel and noticed beter mpg, now I know none of this is scientific and proves nothing but it's just my own experience of using supermarket fuels which I've never used since.
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My story is similar to some here and also not scientific.
Years ago my daughter bought a 1 year old Golf 1.6 petrol with low mileage. She had a 60 mile round trip commute every day. She asked me to look at it as the performance seemed flat and the engine sluggish. Fearing the worst I took it for a drive and sure enough it was flat. The engine also sounded a bit 'tinny'. I asked what fuel she had put in, fearing diesel or some other mis-fueling. She replied fuel from Tesco and Asda. I advised her to fill up with Shell Premium petrol and then we went for a good run and put the car through it's paces in all gears and the full rev range. Sure enough after a few days she could not believe the difference in performance and consumption. Both improved considerably. Agree, not scientific, but indicative that premium fuels do have certain benefits. I am a firm believer in 'you get what you pay for'. Cheers Concrete
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I understood the only difference was different retailers had different additive packs added by the tanker driver at the point of delivery.
Physically impossible. It is a closed loop system.
The fuel may have brand-specific additives added by the computer when loading it onto the tanker at the terminal, the dye in gasoil is also added this way since it became the same spec. as road diesel.
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"The fuel may have brand-specific additives added by the computer when loading it onto the tanker at the terminal..."
That is what I was told some years ago by an acquaintance who worked as a BP tanker driver out of the Buncefield depot. He said the drivers physically tipped the additives into the tanker. A computer's involvement is something I did not hear about - maybe it's an updated version of the procedure.
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Gasoil, is not the same as DERV. It is a lower spec, 46 cetane against 52 cetaine in road fuel.
Farmers with newish tractors have to use additives to make the things run properly. I wish we could get the EN590 but we end up with the old A2 rubbish.
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My story is similar to some here and also not scientific.
Years ago my daughter bought a 1 year old Golf 1.6 petrol with low mileage. She had a 60 mile round trip commute every day. She asked me to look at it as the performance seemed flat and the engine sluggish. Fearing the worst I took it for a drive and sure enough it was flat. The engine also sounded a bit 'tinny'. I asked what fuel she had put in, fearing diesel or some other mis-fueling. She replied fuel from Tesco and Asda. I advised her to fill up with Shell Premium petrol and then we went for a good run and put the car through it's paces in all gears and the full rev range. Sure enough after a few days she could not believe the difference in performance and consumption. Both improved considerably. Agree, not scientific, but indicative that premium fuels do have certain benefits. I am a firm believer in 'you get what you pay for'. Cheers Concrete
Sorry but that proves nothing other than after a good run a car runs better. She was probably driving it like a granny and all it needed was a good drive regardless of the fuel used.
When we acquired dads Micra last October it seemed very slow compared to an identical one we had owned a few before. We still used the same mixture of Asda and Tesco that dad had but after 8 months of more "agressive" use it felt like the engine had been bored out and a performance cam fitted. Chap who bought it off us was very impressed.
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My 1.9D Berlingo has done 153k miles on mostly supermarket fuel. While I too have a subjective impression of better performance on French diesel I'm not prepared to pay the 5p/litre premium demanded for branded fuel in UK.
Don't think it's diet has done any harm. My only engine problem, exhaust valve seat recession leading to starting issues, is a known issue with XUD/DW8 series units.
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My story is similar to some here and also not scientific.
Years ago my daughter bought a 1 year old Golf 1.6 petrol with low mileage. She had a 60 mile round trip commute every day. She asked me to look at it as the performance seemed flat and the engine sluggish. Fearing the worst I took it for a drive and sure enough it was flat. The engine also sounded a bit 'tinny'. I asked what fuel she had put in, fearing diesel or some other mis-fueling. She replied fuel from Tesco and Asda. I advised her to fill up with Shell Premium petrol and then we went for a good run and put the car through it's paces in all gears and the full rev range. Sure enough after a few days she could not believe the difference in performance and consumption. Both improved considerably. Agree, not scientific, but indicative that premium fuels do have certain benefits. I am a firm believer in 'you get what you pay for'. Cheers Concrete
Sorry but that proves nothing other than after a good run a car runs better. She was probably driving it like a granny and all it needed was a good drive regardless of the fuel used.
When we acquired dads Micra last October it seemed very slow compared to an identical one we had owned a few before. We still used the same mixture of Asda and Tesco that dad had but after 8 months of more "agressive" use it felt like the engine had been bored out and a performance cam fitted. Chap who bought it off us was very impressed.
Well skidpan, I wasn't trying to prove anything. I did state that my story was unscientific. However, you do not know my daughter. I am sure she is related to Nikki Lauder! Drive like a granny eh, I would not say that within her hearing if I were you. The Shell fuel did the trick as far as we are concerned and improved consumption, performance and engine running. That is all I am saying and I believe it to be correct.
Cheers Concrete
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Gasoil, is not the same as DERV. It is a lower spec, 46 cetane against 52 cetaine in road fuel.
It's a minimum spec. which is enveloped by EN590
'Nobody' really makes and stores gasoil as a seperate product since 2011, it is cheaper to assimilate the two - it is all marked diesel.
Low sulphur (<10ppm) gasoil being the main driver.
That is what I was told some years ago by an acquaintance who worked as a BP tanker driver out of the Buncefield depot. He said the drivers physically tipped the additives into the tanker.
This stopped around 1992 - before that, drivers used to climb on top of the tanker, open lids on each compartment and load the product in by gravity via suspended pipes they could swing round. They also used to climb on top (remember the ladders at the back?) during delivery at the petrol station and insert long dipsticks to show the customer before and after reading is each compartment.
Then in the early 1990s, working at height legislation made it impractical/illegal, so after a few years transition, tankers were then loaded by pumps through the faucets you see down the nearside (which were always used for offloading). This also meant that they couldn't add any additives, or dip the tanks.
Edited by Hamsafar on 28/06/2015 at 19:45
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I haven't used supermarket fuel for several years. I'll never go back. Local rivals e.g. Esso are usually only a couple of pence a litre more, sometimes the difference is less.
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Thanks for this, Hamsafar.
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There was a a thread about this a while back.
On it I said I had been at a local tanker fuelling plant very recently, not back in the early 90s or 80s, where I witnessed every type of petrol outlet livery fill up at the same pumps. No difference. Nothing "added". which led me to the conclusion that there is no difference between branded and supermarket fuel.
Several people tried to say I was talking rubbish and that stuff was added to the tankers. Yeah snake oil. Well it seems I've been vindicated and with this confirmation from Hamsafar. There is no difference. Fill up with the cheapest.
The idea that the big boys sell additive rich fuel because they charge more is a myth. They just want to squeeze as much out of you as they can because of the small profit margin per litre. Many on here have had the wool pulled over their eyes, HJ included. Maybe he's seen the light, and I hope the rest of you do too.
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Ben, you really should read more carefully. What Hamsafar put - read both his posts - includes:
"The fuel may have brand-specific additives added by the computer when loading it onto the tanker at the terminal, the dye in gasoil is also added this way since it became the same spec. as road diesel."
Each of the "big boys" has their own recipe of additives. All fuel is not the same. I'm not saying there isn't a "snake oil" aspect to some of this, but "you pays yer money and takes yer choice."
I've never had any evidence, personally, that supermarket fuels are worse than brands, but I always add my own "snake oil" in the form of Millers Ecomax, which I've used for years - both the diesel and petrol versions - and I've had excellent economy and performance and a complete lack of any fuel-related issues in hundreds of thousands of motoring miles.
Whether that has anything to do with the Millers I couldn't say - my experience hardly constitutes proof. I'm sufficiently aware to realise that there's a lot of illogical, faith-based stories around which, for some, apparently do mean proof.
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I've never had any evidence, personally, that supermarket fuels are worse than brands, but I always add my own "snake oil" in the form of Millers Ecomax, which I've used for years - both the diesel and petrol versions - and I've had excellent economy and performance and a complete lack of any fuel-related issues in hundreds of thousands of motoring miles.
For what it's worth, I have no personal reason to suspect that branded diesel is better or more economical than supermarket. SWMBO buys most of it, often at a supermarket. My habit is to buy at any branded outlet I come to - in other words I don't go out of my way to save a few pence as the savings are usually pretty small. And if there is any truth in the suggestion that branded is 'better' those savings may be imaginary.
I do know that when I add a small shot of injector cleaner to the tank every few months, the engine runs just a bit smoother and quieter afterwards.
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There was a a thread about this a while back. On it I said I had been at a local tanker fuelling plant very recently, not back in the early 90s or 80s, where I witnessed every type of petrol outlet livery fill up at the same pumps. No difference. Nothing "added". which led me to the conclusion that there is no difference between branded and supermarket fuel. Several people tried to say I was talking rubbish and that stuff was added to the tankers. Yeah snake oil. Well it seems I've been vindicated and with this confirmation from Hamsafar. There is no difference. Fill up with the cheapest. The idea that the big boys sell additive rich fuel because they charge more is a myth. They just want to squeeze as much out of you as they can because of the small profit margin per litre. Many on here have had the wool pulled over their eyes, HJ included. Maybe he's seen the light, and I hope the rest of you do too.
How do you know nothing is added when the tanker delivers to the petrol station? Then each brand gets it's own quantity of additives.
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Physically impossible. It is a closed loop system.
That's a new (to me, at least) use of the phrase 'closed loop system'. DO you really mean closed loop, or do you mean tamper free?
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An independent opinion with a twist. www.autofuelfix.com/blog/supermarket-fuel-vs-brand...e
Supermarket fuel Vs the branded fuel, What’s the difference?
This is a subject that has been discussed on a regular basis throughout motoring forums, whether you get inferior fuel from a supermarket garage compared to the likes of a Shell, BP or Esso petrol stations.
All fuels that are sold in the UK, Petrol or Diesel, will conform to the relevant British Standards. What this means to the general user is that they should all work generally the same way and using the same fuel type from any garage should not cause any issues with your vehicle.<*** class="alignright size-medium wp-image-301" src="http://www.autofuelfix.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/23996567_s-300x200.jpg" alt="Supermarket Vs branded fuels" width="300" height="200" />
All petrol stations use a standard ‘base’ fuel which is supplied from the same refineries across the UK no matter what petrol pump it will end up being pumped from into your tank. The only difference is, the various additives that the different companies add to their fuel before it ends up in your tank. Baring this in mind, it could be the possible reason why some drivers report that their car runs better on some garage fuels over others.
So are Supermarket fuels poorer quality?
The simple answer is in general NO, the fuel all (as mentioned in the above paragraph) comes from the same refineries. BUT the different fuel outlets whether it be a branded filling station or a supermarket filling station, will define a minimum performance level required from the fuel, which results in different levels & types of additives added to the ‘base’ fuel. These additivies can effect the MPG and general running of the vehicle that some drivers may experience more extremely than others, in some cases you may not even notice any difference at all.
Conclusion
Depending on what type of vehicle you are driving, whether it’s been tuned or has a standard map, you may notice differences between using different filling stations, even between the branded ones. BUT the fuel is all from the same refineries which all meets the Britsh Standards, so you can use any to fill up your vehicle with petrol or diesel, knowing it’s all of the same ‘base’ fuel.
<*** class="avatar avatar-60 photo" src="http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/2847d2741f937d7976dcbf2fdc7c3b76?s=60&d=http%3A%2F%2F0.gravatar.com%2Favatar%2Fad516503a11cd5ca435acc9bb6523536%3Fs%3D60&r=G" alt="" width="60" height="60" /> Andy Laywood August 28, 2014 at 6:03 am
Not all fuels are the same I have a Delphi fuel quality tester and I have tested supermarket fuels from various stations and found up to 18% bio diesel in some fuels. The problem there being that the diesel manufacturers only design there systems to take up to 6% bio diesel, hence lots of damaged diesel components and big bills for are customers.
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How do you know nothing is added when the tanker delivers to the petrol station? Then each brand gets it's own quantity of additives
Do you honestly think that the oil companies would let tanker drivers handle their mega secret planet saving inventions. The driver would be strait off to one of the competitors to sell them a sample for huge money allowing them to copy it and have all the planet saving properties of their competitors for a fraction of the cost.
Not all fuels are the same I have a Delphi fuel quality tester and I have tested supermarket fuels from various stations and found up to 18% bio diesel in some fuels.
If this were true you should be contacting the releveant British Standard offices since under EN590 the max bio permitted is 7%.
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"Do you honestly think that the oil companies would let tanker drivers handle their mega secret planet saving inventions."
I have no reason to doubt what I was told by the BP driver some years back.
"The driver would be strait off to one of the competitors to sell them a sample for huge money allowing them to copy it and have all the planet saving properties of their competitors for a fraction of the cost."
Lots of jobs involve employees handling materials that involve industrial secrets and they sign a pretty comprehensive legal document. There are also patents, designed to prevent rip-offs. That's common knowledge, I would have thought.
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This was discussed at length in January. Eventually the thread was very wisely closed by Avant. www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=107859
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Yes - because it developed into a gang fight in the car park about just about everything other than fuel---spectacles--tyres etc.
Quite entertaining actually-must thave missed that one!
Could we have some smileys on this forum please?
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How do you know nothing is added when the tanker delivers to the petrol station? Then each brand gets it's own quantity of additives
Do you honestly think that the oil companies would let tanker drivers handle their mega secret planet saving inventions. The driver would be strait off to one of the competitors to sell them a sample for huge money allowing them to copy it and have all the planet saving properties of their competitors for a fraction of the cost.
Yes, of course they would. am also pretty sure that Shell, Esso, BP etc will pretty much know what is in each others fuels.
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These days, the standard fuels are simply made to meet EN590 as cheaply as possible, which makes them all pretty similar.
To my knowledge, tanker drivers have never added anything during delivery, even when they did have access to as where would they store it before they add it? Most additives are too dangerous to carry around in seperate containers. It would not be tolerated.
The tanker is typically made of 8 seperate compartments which are not interconnected and hold about 33,000 litres in total. They contain slosh baffles to stop the fuel sloshing when driving which would be unstable.
These are not interlinked and are numbered 1-8. A driver will go to the loading stands, earth the vehicle, has an order car which he places in a machine that reads it and once the hoses are connected (one at a time to each compartment) he commences dispensing and it is fed in by pressure. Receipts are printed onto the order showing the amount put in. Sometimes a driver can put the wrong product in a compartment or put it into the wrong tank at the petrol station. If it's a small amount, he can either cover his tracks and keep quiet, or call his boss and have it pumped out into another taker as waste. If the error was made at the terminal, he may not even realise the mistake. This doesn't happen so much these days as procedures are far more clearly defined and belts & braces.
A modern petrol station usually takes the full 33,000 litres, but the smaller village ones, maybe half that and the tanker will make two deliveries from one load. The busiest stations take 2 loads a day.
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Who cares? Time for bed. Good night.
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Who cares? Time for bed. Good night.
If you are not interested then don't post
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Pretty good summary Hamsafar.
The tankers delivering to the petrol station where I work p/t deliver 38300 litres maximum. No additives are added by the driver. The vapour recovery hose is connected before the fuel delivery begins.
If the whole delivery does not fit, or we have to turn a tanker away, we get fined. Therefore there is much calculating going on in the hours leading up to a fuel delivery to ensure it fits. Sometimes if we are getting low (low = 5000 lites) in any one tank, we have to close off that tank to preserve it. This is why you sometimes see individual pumps "out of order" with others working. Infuriating for drivers, but saves you the possibility of sucking up crud from the bottom of the tank. The tanks get cleaned out every few months and we have the "weights and measures" people in every 6 months.
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I have been using supermarket fuels since the mid 80's and never noticed any difference.
When I raced I used supermarket fuels and have a cabinet of trophys. If better fuel had meant better performance I would have use it, after all I would only have spent a few pounds extra over a season.
My Golf GTIs ran badly on it. So when 98 Ron Superunleaded was launched by Texaco (Cleansystem3) I embraced it and had my engine’s ignition advanced to suit it
I had 2 Golf GTi's, the first required unleaded fuel and that was always used in it. The 2nd had digifant management and would run on anthing better than 95 RON although VW commented that to obtain the best economy and performance 98 should be used. I tried both, no difference, car did 113,000 miles almost entirely on 95 RON. No point advancing ignition, it was controlled by the ECU and with knock sensors it was automatically adjusted.
For at least the past 10 years, in order to get the best possible results in the ECDC fuel economy and CO2 lab tests, every manufacturer now optimises their engines to run on Superfuels
Surely they test on the recomended fuels.
Even Which magazine accept there is no difference and What Car use Tesco fuel.
Edited by Avant on 02/07/2015 at 00:48
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I greatly respect your comments on numorous subjects Skidpan, but after my own experiences over the years I'm with HJ on this one.
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I greatly respect your comments on numorous subjects Skidpan, but after my own experiences over the years I'm with HJ on this one.
Yes, count me in the superfuel fold. My car certainly runs better on it. As an aside, I would be wary of taking Which magazine's advice on anything.
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Count me in too. Six months continuous use of Shell Super unleaded in 2001 Corolla 1.4VVti has improved fuel consumption by 10% at a 6% increase in cost over 95 Shell unleaded.
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I think this debate will go on forever as its difficult to prove one way or the other, especially as ECU`s are programed to run an engine at optimum performance whatever fuel is used
Then in certain cases there is a perception that you are getting more to the gallon, or your performance is better which is difficult to prove, I can understand fuels keeping engines cleaner but i`m sceptical about any increase in either fuel consumption or performance increases especially around the 10% mark or less
But thats my opinion
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My SIL is a Texaco tanker driver and Hamasfar has got it exactly right on all aspects.
John simply puts a card in something and he hasnt a clue of what the additive goes into his tanker. He does know that its a different one for whoever he is delivering to but thats all the driver knows or cares about. He works from a refinery near Tamworth and all different tankers load out of there.
He has worked on tankers for many years and has never heard from very old drivers of puttng additives in themselves. As regards dipping the tanks once again he is right. In my own work experience the boiler house attendant had to stand and watch the driver dip all his compartments and hold the long dipstick to enable them to see the level. I remember this being phased out in the early nineties and assumed it must have been a H&S measure to prevent the driver standing on the top of his tanks.
A slight change in subject but john tells me that they have to deliver the petrol using gravity. With diesel they pump it out. ...
wemyss
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I greatly respect your comments on numorous subjects Skidpan, but after my own experiences over the years I'm with HJ on this one.
I'm not sure about the above, but if any thread on this site illustrates the old adage, this one does:
People believe what they want to believe. And if they believe it strongly enough, no-one is going to shift 'em. Like Nigel Lawson and global warming, for example.
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