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Having been involved in a similar situation allbeit several years ago my answer is........it depends.
This site will give you the basics.
https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/dealing-with-the-debts-of-someone-who-has-died
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Hello, to RobJP, I live in rural Kent if this helps.
Thank you TedCrilly, a very interesting website.
As an update I saw the young man in the pub this evening. He is trying to gather what paperwork there is and I have offered to go round and help. He is genuinely shocked about the debts and completely ignorant about what his mother was doing, not that he would fully understand anyway. I just hope we help this young man who cannot really cope with all the stress this situation entails. At present he is calm because he has gotten the problem off his chest and at least receiving some help.
More tomorrow when I have had a chance to gather and examine what paperwork there is.
Cheers Concrete
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Regrettably, he lives on the Wirral.
As Ted says : it depends. The young man definitely needs help with matters though by the sound of it, and very good that you're in a position and willing to assist him.
All the best
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This indead i a shocking situation and sadly not uncommon. Ask the people demanding money for a copy of the orginal paperwork. No paper work equal no case to answer.
If indeed his mother is the only one on the paperwork then that it no case. More complex if it secured load, but on the basis it's a rented property unlikely.
If his does not understand the paper work and is on it would a option to go down that route which would be a complex case to prove.
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Top Man Concrete, glad the chap has someone solid to help him.
I have had to sort things like this out following my son's death many years ago, though i'm as far from an expert in these matters as its possible to be.
Apart from his landlady who had her rent hand out literally is i identified the body (you should have seen the withering look the really nice copper attending us gave her), every company debtor and there were a few were extremely helpful and every single major debt such as loans and credit cards died with him, i paid out other things like rent etc where individuals not vast companies were owed, not one even enquired about his estate for reparation purposes.
I hope that when, presumably you unless you can find someone like RobJP's chap to assist, you contact the debtors they will wipe the debts clean.
Our virtual best to the chap, and a virtual glass raised to you too!
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As others might have said It might depend on the who the monies are owed to, and whether the lady had any assets.
Any valid debt/loan can only be collected/paid from assets in the estate, it cannot be passed on to her son/heirs, if there are no assets the debt died with her.
In the first instance write to creditors concerned (recorded delivery) staiting that the individual has passed away and you are assisting the heirs with the estate finalisation.
If phone calls are being received, by the son, simply state that the lady has passed away and that a letter has been sent, if they dont immediately offer simpathy and persist - hang up.
I'm an accountant, in Kent and have dealt with similar matters, if you want free no obligation advice mail me on palcoukAThotmailDOTcom
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Worth visiting the Citizens' Advice Bureau? They can be amazingly helpful.
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Thanks to everyone for the messages of support. The more vulnerable in society are certainly in need of the bit of help. As my sainted and now sadly departed mother used to say ' an ounce of help is worth a ton of sympathy'.
Got some paperwork today. It would seem the majority of the debt is owed to a care home, which actually forgot to ask for payment either during or after her stay. It seems they only realised their mistake after she had died and have been pursuing this poor lad. I asked him about this and the only thing he remembers is that a social worker arranged for the care. So more investigation tomorrow when I contact the social worker and the care home and try to find out who said what to whom!
The other small debts are insignificant and of no relevance to him so I can soon sort them out. I feel sure the outcome is positive having looked at this and unless there is some devil lurking in the detail there should be some good news for my friend. Fingers crossed.
Cheers Concrete
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The question that comes to mind is why would she be pay for a care home.
From what I understand the lady didn't have notable sums of savings (less than 12K) or income (pension). In this case the local authority should have been funing the nursing home.
Asuming the nursing home invoiced was for services provide after 2009 if there is a valid reason for her bill to be funded by her, the money should have come out of the her estate.
In the case that no debt was identified and th probate correctly executed then its hard luck for the care home. The issue might be if the was any errors in probate process, then the care home could sue to recover then debt.
Good luck and top man for helping him
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I spoke to the care home this morning. She had respite care there in 2014 and returned home only weeks before she suddenly died. The reason she went into care was her health was suffering and she could not cope at home, so it was felt that a period of care would restore her health. The local authority agreed to fund most of the care but a financial assessment required a contribution from her of about £20 per day. Presumably she agreed to this although they have nothing in writing to that effect. Unfortunately the care home forgot to invoice her or arrange any payment procedure. An error they only realised after hearing of her death and closing her file. They then wrote to her son, the young man in question, requesting payment of nearly £3000.00. She did not leave a will and she had no estate and her only income were pensions that died with her leaving a bank balance of a few hundred pounds after the funeral was paid. There was no need of probate or an executor as there was nothing to administer or distribute and the remaining money went to her son. With his consent I have offered this sum as a settlement to the care home and I am awaiting their reaction to my letter. That's it up to date. Fingers crossed they will accept this but they seemed pretty determined to get their money. They seem to forget 'you can't get blood from a stone'. Watch this space.
Cheers Concrete
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I went through a similar situation with my mother,except it was a county council trying to extract money from her estate when they should have been paying for the care she received.
The beancounters at the council got pretty nasty about it until I demanded to have copies of the various assessments that had been carried out to back up their claim. It turned out the paperwork had not been done and hence did not exist so they stopped their demands.
In this case that you are dealing with I don't think that the care home have a legal claim as you say they have nothing in writing to the effect that the good lady gave her consent to the £20 per day charge.
Don't forget if they do accept your offer write to them confirming that the offered payment is "in full and final settlement" this stops them coming back for more at a later date.
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Have I got this right?
The lady was apparently supposed to pay £20 a day to the care home.
They now reckon she owes them £3000.
That equates to 150 days - five months.
That sounds an awfully long time for a respite period, but possible, I suppose. But I'd want to find out if it's a realistic assumption or a wild guess.
Given the lack of paperwork to confirm this (or presumably, any recollection from the son) I'm wondering whether the care home deserves to get anything at all.
Edited by FP on 07/06/2015 at 23:17
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I got a breakdown of the dates from the care home. It is 137 days in total spread over a period from June to December 2014. I have no doubt the claim is genuine and she had the care, which was arranged by the local authority. It is just unfortunate that they forgot to ask for payment before, during or even immediately after the care was delivered. Now the estate has insufficent funds to settle the claim. I do feel sorry for the care home but business is business and they messed up. I have written to them again to state that while their position is lamentable the circumstances remain that the estate cannot pay. Circumstances alter cases and the residue of her bank account is all that is available in full and final settlement of their claim. No doubt they will respond in due course so we can only await that. I did also point out that may have some redress from the local authority(good luck with that one!)
Cheers Concrete
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It would totally amazing that anyone in business could and work in this way.
When dealing with local authority NHS care, your stacked under in paperwork i.e Assessing care needs, Care and support plan & finincial situation etc etc
They key document is the Care and support plan the would detail how the how much money and how the money would be spent including the method of payment. I have personally filled in one with a support worker and basically no plan = no money.
In my case the authority paid the money to me and I paid the people providing care. It was a requirement for me to gain a signature for all money spent. I was advised by the support worker to open a seperate bank account to manage the money, which I did.
So you can see why to me it seams impossiable what they saying is correct.
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Hello slk, I have been through the paperwork and there is a financial assessment for the deceased woman. Also a care plan which included some home visits etc etc. Basically it outlines the local authorities position and their financial contribution towards care. It does seem that the LA did contribute the vast majority of the care home costs and as far as I can see and after speaking with them they seem to have discharged their duty to this lady in every respect. The social worker I spoke too was very forthcoming and I got the impression she is diligent in her job and seems a caring sort of person. I still think it all comes down to financial mis-management by the care home. Had they made their claim properly they would have been paid. That may have left a shortfall for the funeral, but that is academic now. That is all water under the bridge. It proves one old saying though: if you snooze-you lose! I am still awaiting their response but now feel fairly sure we are on firm grounds to reject their claim. If they do not accept the residue of her bank account in full and final settlement then they will get nothing. Watch this space.
Cheers Concrete
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Hello, just an update, which is really no update! The care home have not yet responded to my last letter informing them that insufficient funds are in the estate to settle their account and what is available they can have as full and final settlement. I thought they would grab the chance of a small something instead of a fat nothing. Maybe they really are that inefficient at running the finances of a business, or maybe they are trying for legal advice. Either way the situation remains the same. I will write once more in order to wind up this matter and give them 14 days to respond or all bets are off! See what that brings.
Cheers Concrete
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Remember to send the letter "Recorded Delivery"
Track it and print the receipt from the PO Website and keep it on file.
6 / 12 months down the line they may claim.....you then have proof they were warned and failed to claim!
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Hopefully they are done and you can get back to your life. You have gone beyond the call of duty, well done.
I think your only requirement is reasonable steps, so ensuring the address etc is correct and send more than one letter. If they don't respond it more complex as I think they have up to six years.
I would simply write saying that they have not responded and you now consider the matter closed.
Edited by slkfanboy on 24/06/2015 at 14:56
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both very sensible suggestions from Falkirk and slk. I shall follow them.
Cheers Concrete
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Under the current rules if a person has less than about £23000 in assets the Local Authority is partly responsible for their care costs.
If they have less than £13000 in assets then the Loacal Authority is 100% respeonsible for their care costs.
Assets include any property but if the son was living there and fulfills certain criteria regarding health and mental capacity it will be disregarded.
If the above sounds famliar they need a solicitor well practiced in these matters.
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Thanks skidpan, the property they occupied is in trust for the young man in question because of his reduced mental capacity, so it is not an asset for her or her estate. His late father was obviously very far sighted. She had some money and income which meant she contributed to her respite care, the local authority paying the vast majority. Her income effectively died with her and the few hundred pounds left after the funeral etc is all there is. I have been through the paperwork with a fine toothed comb and asked a lot of questions to various parties concerned ( local auth. care home. home help. friends and neighbours). As far as I can ascertain that is it. I am now ready to issue a final offer to the creditor( care home) to see if they will accept this as full and final settlement. When that is concluded we can all draw a line under this and move on. That will be a great relief to this particular young man.
Cheers Concrete
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Well done concrete - and with over 800 views I am surprised there is no helpful comment from a lawyer. Although, perhaps not........
As I understand it from my limited experience of getting probate, if estate assets equal x pounds and debts equal y pounds, the amount of debt that can be recovered cannot exceed x. If y is greater than x, then the remaining debt, y minus x, must be written off.
Not only should the home know this, it might also be guilty of harrassment, unless it suspects concealed assets in which case it looks as though they could issue an insolvency petition - see this link.
www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/casehelpmanual/D/D...m
For all I know the home might have to do this in order to define it as a 'bad debt' to put it against tax - but that's their problem, not yours or the lad's.
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Thanks John F, you are correct about the debt situation, unless there is a charge on any assets i.e property, investments etc. This does not apply here as I have established. Probate does not apply as there was so little estate and no other assets apart from some cash. There was no will and no executor and a distant relative simply closed the accounts and gave the cash to our young man. Sadly this relative is no longer around either. It simply boils down to getting this care home to acknowledge the position and either accept our offer or 'go forth and multiply'. They have until 20 July 2015 to respond or all bets are off. just waiting now to see what transpires.
Cheers Concrete
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Update: the offer period to the care home has expired. They didn't even bother to respond, so 'round things' to them. I have now written again and informed them the matter is now closed. No further correspondence will be entered into unless absolutely essential and only germane to the offer made. All future contact must be made through me and under no circumstances are they to contact my vulnerable young friend again on pain of legal action for harassment. As far as we are concerned the matter is firmly closed.
I told the young man in question that the matter was closed and they must not contact him again and that the debt was satisfied in the eyes of the law. He was relieved to say the least. All this unnecessary agitation because a business cannot be run properly. They don't deserved any money at all as far as I am concerned. End of story. Thanks for the expressions of support from forum members.
Cheers Concrete
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