|
Any such modofications as proposed would invalidate any warranty.. and probably any insurance as well.
|
|
As madf has said.
Imagine you've fitted your additional pre-filter, and have a fuel leak, and a car fire, and the subsequent investigation ... No insurance payout, a policy cancelled by the insurer (which you then have to declare to future insurance companies, most of whom will run a mile from you), and the possibility of the police being involved, as your policy was not valid.
Not somewhere I'd want to be, personally.
|
|
These messages surprise me. Of course they were written with the very best of intentions but they seem to reflect a state of excessive anxiety rather than careful analysis of a mechanical problem. For a start, my car is well past any warranty. Then there is question of flamability. If this were a petrol car it might have some validity but diesel is not easy to ignite. A better use of this sorth of advice would be to say "never drive a petrol car", but people often do.
If you study the blogs on this website you will find countless example of owners being frustrated by faults that mechanics were having great trouble finding and wasting huge amounts of money trying to fix. They were paying good money and driving off, only to have the fault appear again a few miles later. That is what I was trying to avoid. Compared with that, the cheaper cost of an in-line filter is trivial. What about the risk to life and car associated a fuel flow problem on the freeway. Have you ever had an engine failure in a freeway with no safety pull-off lane? That is "not somewhere I'd want to be, personally".
Now that you have had a bit more time for reflection, what do you really think about fiting an extra metal filter before the Peugeot filter?
Do you really think it would be difficult to fit one without creating a fuel leak hazard? Have the DIY skills in your country become so deficient that it would produce significant risk?
|
|
Peugeot (and all other manufacturers) spend mega millions developing their cars to make the reliable (hopefully) and long lasting (hopefully). But there is always a bloke in a shed who thinks that the addition of a filter from Halfords (or elsewhere) will make the car better.
Think about it, if it was that cheap and simple don't you think Peugeot would have done it.
And just remember that modern diesel injection systems run at very high pressures. If you were to fit this filter and the pipes cam adrift or the filter simply failed due to pressures it was not designed for how would you feel if a motorcyclist was injured or killed on the diesel spill.
|
|
"And just remember that modern diesel injection systems run at very high pressures."
I don't have any view on the OP's idea, but I assume he's talking about fitting a filter before the high-pressure pump - indeed, before the existing filter.
|
|
I've been driving Peugeots, particularly the 307, for many years and have never had any fuel supply problems. My first 307 diesel did around 36,000 miles in over a year. I also do regular fuel filter changes and only use Shell fuel for what its worth (Shell is the same price as supermarket fuels in my area)
And I'm not alone, the many regulars on Peugeotforums have similar experiences.
If you want a reliable Peugeot, its quite simple - buy a known good one that's been looked after and has decent service history, do regular maintenance, and stick around the Peugeot community and learn from the experiences of owners and be wary of garages with a vested interest in your wallet and playing on your ignorance.
Like I said on the other thread, problems can and do occur - but generally through lack of maintenance, or the age and mileage of some parts which have gone long beyond their expectations.
Edited by Gibbo_Wirral on 14/04/2015 at 15:07
|
|
|
|
?
Do you really think it would be difficult to fit one without creating a fuel leak hazard? Have the DIY skills in your country become so deficient that it would produce significant risk?
Would I advise someone I don't know to do a DIY job? Especially when the risks of doing it wrong could result in fuel leaks and danger to themselves and others?
Anyone who answers "yes" really needs to live in the real world. We have NO IDEA of the level of competence..or care.
And as stated above, Peugeot do design their cars with qualified engineers.
I despair,
|
|
Depends on which Peugeot
Some have in tank pumps,
others don't
An anyway the problems I've come across with fuel supply are mostly the type without in tank pumps.
First clue to doom is metal swarf in the bottom of the filter houding.
which are really parts of a self destructing H/P pump,
Fuel is recurculated so the debris ends up in every part of the fuel system from tank right through to injectors.
Big cause of this is water in the fuel getting into the H/P pump.
Some are so bad that the internals look like they've been in a pond for a few years.
And these very fine tollerance parts react badly to rust.
So it'snot just change the filter because of particulate in thr fuel but water.
Many Peug's have a drain screw in the baseof the housing.
But if I was going to add anything to the pre filter line it would be a water trap with clear glass so all it would take is a quick look to check.
A common fitment on diesels once.
|
|
I sometimes wonder what some people do with their cars, i ran Diesels for some 30 years (moderns not wanted so not any more) and have driven them for work for well over 3 million miles, i've had a fuel filter warning once and that was on my present 62 plate lorry the service intervals of which has since been brought forward by the maker as it came up regularly, and have never had a breakdown due to fuelling problems.
All these vehicles were serviced sensibly and never saw comedy fuels, my own Diesel fuel filters changed every year or two and a dash of Millers every fill up.
Other people i know have had pump and injector (and other) problems, invariably they regular neglected servicing...or the vehicle was known to have components made of cheese...much easier to avoid the lemons now if people bothered to check t'internet before buying a badge.
If i was running an agricultural vehicle or lived in some third world country, strapping jerry cans of dodgy fuel to the roof rack and in perma dust or monsoon then i could see the good sense in a pre filter with water trap as the above poster mentions, but here?
|
|
I'm the same, run diesels for many years (only since 1999 for me) and done some long motorway commutes or my current low mileage commute and never had problems. Have I just been lucky, or is it down to buying good, looked after cars (never bought new) or regular fuel filter changes (every 6000 miles when I do the oil) and using Millers and Shell fuel?
The only new vehicle I've owned was a works Berlingo 1.9 diesel van back in 2001. That did 120,000 miles without a single issue, just needing tyres and brakes.
My experience is that people see a bargain but fail to think about the consequences of a lack of service history, then blame the marque when things go wrong, like a recent customer of mine complaining that his ABS unit is shot, but only because he's missing the wheel arch liner which protects it. So suddenly its Peugeot's fault because he bought a second hand car without the wheel arch liner and never bothered to replace it for £20.
Edited by Gibbo_Wirral on 15/04/2015 at 15:01
|
|
The title says it all
Can you make a Peugeot 307 fuel supply foolproof?
Nothing is "foolproof" since fools are such ingenious people.
|
|
I have run diesels since 1993. Never had fool -sorry - fuel supply issues.
I suspect this is a windup.
|
|
We are starting to get some sensible posts now. The one about fitting a glass bowl filter before the main filter makes sense if the fuel supply may have water in it. It shouldn't be necessary of course because Peugeot has a water detector in the main filter. If water collects, there will be a dashboard warning signal. But what if that sensor fails? The glass bowl filter would protect the engine as the owner would see the water collecting.
Some of the comments have been a bit strange. It seems some of the people who frequent this website are unaware that the fuel filter operates on the low pressure side.
On the question of "fools" the whole thrust of my enquiries is about the historical record which shows that mechanics often get dirt into the plumbing when they change a fuel filter. It is not the owner who is the fool in this case. Skidpan, do you disagree with Screwloose who advises never changing the filter cartridge? He advises always changing the whole filter, body and cartridge. He must give this advice for good reason, having seen the results of cartridge changing with the filter body on the car. I am sure he could change the cartridge on the bench, clean the body and get it back into the car without risk of dirt entry, and so could you, and so could I, but how can we be sure what the mechanic will do when we drop the car in for a service?
Do you not agree that mounting a strong metal extra filter in front of the Peugeot filter must collect dirt and prolong the life of the Peugeot filter? Any fool mechanic could quickly change that filter without risk of getting dirt into the high pressure side of the motor.
Thanks for your help on this Gibbo_Wirral, on the other thread. You can see that it is not lack of maintenance that I am talking about - it is about maintenance too often done badly that the owner does not suspect.
What I would really like to know is how to measure the fuel pressure past the Peugeot fuel filter in order to determine whether the filter needs changing. I have been informed by Gibbo that it can probably be measured with special equipment, however I am wondering if the unmodified Peugeot system gives a warning if the pressure past the filter drops. Does anyone know?
Edited by logical on 15/04/2015 at 17:31
|
|
Not sure about the 307 but apart from my Mercs i haven't seen a replacement cartridge fuel (or oil come to that) filter for years, arn't they almost all now sealed inside some moulding made from unobtanium.
Simple enough answer, DIY your own filter changes and then you know exactly what procedure was followed, and periodically drain the existing filter into a small container and see if any water is present.
The problem with each extra filter is that you are asking the fuel pump(s) to do more work...Hilux/Landcruiser owners try this in Australia and from discussions on the relevant forums it can make the pumps struggle.
With a well serviced car running pump fuel on UK road use i don't see the need for the extra filtering.
Edited by gordonbennet on 15/04/2015 at 17:38
|
|
Thank you gordonbennet,
I have been driving my 307 for some time with an extra filter in front of the Peugeot filter (in Australia) and have not seen any stress. I have also driven a Peugeot 405 for years with an extra filter in front of the Peugeot filter and never found a problem. This is more difficult as the 405 does not have a pressure pump - it just sucks the fuel through the filters while the 307 has a pump in the tank which supplies fuel at a low pressure to the filter.
The Peugeot unfortunately has what I would call an upside down filter. In use there would be dirt collecting around the cartridge, some of which would settle down to where the cartridge meets the filter base. If the mechanic opens the filter while it is still on the car, some of this dirt will be stirred up and can get into the plumbing below. From there it will go straight to the high pressure pump where all the trouble starts.
See the first paragraph of the first post on this topic for a quick review of what this discussion is about. There would be no such discussion if Peugeot inserted the cartridge upward into the housing or provided the filter in a canister, as you suggest.
Edited by logical on 15/04/2015 at 18:06
|
|
Think i'd find an alternative design of filter, either a sealed canister or a replacement cartridge the right way up and retro fit it.
Seems an odd design for someone like Peugeot who've made superb Diesels, you'd think the filter would be sitting in the base and the filtered fuel flow out the top, thereby minimising the danger of foreign objects or water getting through to pump.
That's progress for you.
|
Think i'd find an alternative design of filter, either a sealed canister or a replacement cartridge the right way up and retro fit it.
Hi Gordon,
Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting and have done. The filter I have placed in front of the Peugeot filter is an in-line metal sealed canister.
In the Peugeot filter, the fuel does flow upward and out the top, as you say, and is safe as long as the cartidge is not disturbed. When the cartridge is moved, dirt is loosened, ready to move upward when the fuel flow is restored. My suggestion is simply to provide a system in which the cartridge need never be touched. It would just sit there for the life of the car. There would of course be nothing to stop the owner, or a mechanic, from following the advice of Screwloose and replacing the entire filter, cartridge and container. There would also be nothing to stop the entire system from being taken to the bench for replacement of the cartridge under clean conditions, where the body could be thoroughly cleaned before the cartridge was inserted. This would be almost as safe as Screwloose's recommendation.
|
|
<< The filter I have placed in front of the Peugeot filter is an in-line metal sealed canister. >>
So do you now replace your new canister at the recommended intervals instead?
|
<< The filter I have placed in front of the Peugeot filter is an in-line metal sealed canister. >>
So do you now replace your new canister at the recommended intervals instead?
Andrew-T,
That is a really good question. In trying to think about this in a logical manner, I can only find two possible reasons for changing the fuel filter, whether it be Peugeot's original filter or my additional pre-filter:
1. The filter material has become weak with age or
2. The filter has become blocked enough to start to restrict the fuel flow.
I do not accept the view, sometimes presented, that the quality of filtering declines as debris is filtered out. Surely the quality must get no worse, and may improve, as the pores in it become filled. The thing which determines the filtering quality must be the pore size and the consistency of pore size. One hopes that the manufacturer gets that right, using the engine manufacturer's specifications.
Regarding point 1 above, I welcome advice on the durability of the filter material.
Regarding point 2, I have been trying to find out whether the 307 fuel system includes a sensor for measuring the fuel pressure after the filter, and whether it displays a warning that the pressure is getting low. If so, one should be able to trust Peugeot to set this warning at a pressure which properly indicates that fuel restriction would soon start to reduce the full throttle performance of the engine. So far I have not been able to find out whether this warning system is in place. If fuel pressure did become low, it would only be necessary to change the pre-filter as the other would still be clean enough.
All the older motors, with no lift pump in the fuel tank, operated perfectly satisfactorily while sucking the fuel through the filter. They were thus operating under a slight vacuum. That gives us a clue that zero pressure might be a good starting point for experiments on this question.
|
|
I would sell the car and buy something better engineered than waste my time.
|
I would sell the car and buy something better engineered than waste my time.
Hi madf,
I don't find discussing technical matters with experts and experienced owners a waste of time. If you don't like wasting your time, why do you bother contributing unhelpful remarks?
|
I would sell the car and buy something better engineered than waste my time.
Hi madf,
I don't find discussing technical matters with experts and experienced owners a waste of time. If you don't like wasting your time, why do you bother contributing unhelpful remarks?
Logical
The entire discussion is a dead end...I'll make unhelpful remarks when I like..
|
|
<< Logical - The entire discussion is a dead end...I'll make unhelpful remarks when I like..>>
.... there goes another one ....
|
|
|
|
|
