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BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - agirhea

Hi all

Could anyone help out please? I took my Bmw to my local BMW garrage with a clutch problem. I also asked them to do a check up on my car. They found a fault with the glow plugs. The quotation from them to change the plugs was £300+. So I gave the green light to replace them. While they were removing the plugs they snapped one of the plugs and now they are asking me for £2200 for the job. Isn't their responsabillity to give me an informed choice that what I am or I might face moneywise? They failed to tell me that these plugs can snap and this is common in diesel cars. I am in dispute at the moment with them. They are adamant that there are some things can not be forseen. My understanding is that this is not something out of the blue and most of proffessional garages will give you the facts so you can be prepared. I think they have to take full responsabillity for this as I havnt been informed that things can go wrong and I might end up with £2200 insted of £300. What is my legal ground on this matter? Thank you for your help.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - dieselnut

It will be very difficult proving negligence on the part of the garage.

The mechanic may have been ham fisted or it might be that the glow plug had previously been installed wrongly, overtightened & weakened when installed either from new or during a previous change.

If the broken plug is still sealing the cylinder then it can be left in place & the engine will run fine.

It will start on either 3 of 4 or 5 of 6 working glow plugs.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - agirhea

Hi

Thanks for your message. They allready admited that it broke when they tried to remove. The question is what is their legal responsabillity if they havn't informed me that this can happen before they even attempted to change the plugs? By the way the car is not driweable according to them. Thanks again.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - scot22

I think you should have comeback as, in my opinion, you should be warned of risks.

Hope its O.K to recommend another forum here, Avant. If it is I suggest posting on The Law Forum, which, as the name suggests is exclusively concerned with legal issues.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - RobJP

Your legal grounds are probably thin - when dismantling, it's possible for other parts to break, especially if several years old. The E60 was introduced in 2003, so it's entirely possible that this is an 11 year old car.

As long as the garage can show that they have taken reasonable care when dismantling, then you really aren't going to get anywhere. Rather than getting all bolshy about it, you'd probably be a lot better off negotiating to get the sum reduced.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - scot22

Thinking about Rob's post I agree with his view. You, generally, end up with a better situation by co-operation rather than confrontation. There is no reason not to come to a compromise by communication.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - elekie&a/c doctor

Glow plug removal on modern cars can be a very risky business and affects all makes and models,not just Bmw.However,there may be a cheaper solution to your problem as there are many mobile engineering companies that can remove the broken glow plugs in situ,without cylinder head removal.Perhaps this could be suggested to the dealer?

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - agirhea
Thank you all for your reply. Yes they reduced the price £836 by bringing a specialist who can remove it. But my argument is not about the fact that it happened, because I know now that it can happen. The argument is that they failed to inform me about the risk. So basically I will pay more than double of the original quotation (still better than £2200) because of their lack of information. In my eyes they didn't stand up to their reputation and let me down big time. Still haven't accepted their offer yet as I am on the fence still. So there was a cheaper option only when I expressed my disappointment and disgust? Quiet poor for a reputable company...
BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - agirhea
So because their lack of advise they rip the customer off anyway... Not good enough...
BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - Palcouk

Its a wear & tear item, provided they used standard procedures they are not responsible, and any mechanical item can break when being dissasembled, they had no duty to inform you that 'it might rain' so as to speak.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - agirhea
I completely understand your view. But they still have a legal duty to inform me that it might be £2200. Don't they??? The problem is that if they give me a choice I would have said please do not touch them. The lack of advice is my problem...
BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - elekie&a/c doctor

I think that is a fair point.As a professional outfit I think it would have been reasonable to inform you that this job could go very wrong and expensive and advise you to make a decision as to proceed or not. I am sure this is not the first time that the garage has encountered this problem.I would stick to your guns and pay the original quote only.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - Simon

Was the £300 a quote or an estimate - they are two different things. Do you have anything in writing? Also if you took the car in with a clutch fault why did they feel that the glow plugs also required attention? If they aren't broken and all that (don't fix them)...

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - agirhea

Yes I refused to get the clutch fixed because they quoted me for almost £2000... I didnt have that sort of money before christmass so I said no. I gave them the green light with the glow plugs as they have found that fault and based on their starit forward advice that is going to cost me £300. The car was working as I drowe it in. So some of the glow plugs were fine.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - gordonbennet
. But my argument is not about the fact that it happened, because I know now that it can happen. The argument is that they failed to inform me about the risk. .

If this reads right you knew before they started the job that it carried a risk.

Your argument about the cost appears based on the fact they didn't inform you of something you already knew was a possible problem.

You've stated this on a public forum...a forum i have no doubt in my mind that car makers/importers keep a beady eye on.

As i see it you have the choice of paying the reduced price, or removing the car from the dealership and finding someone else to do the job, might be cheaper might not be, or DiYing.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - agirhea

Do you think I am that dumb??? I had no idea what is a glow plug until I done a reserch after. Yes I found out moore what are the risk moving a glow plug only after. Unfortunatelly... Doesn't a reputable company with so called "service advisors" need to mention to cusomers that they may face a huge bill? So ultmatelly the decision is in the costumer hands. Yes I gave them green light on the base of £300. So you think for example a doctor doesnt need to tell you the risk before operation just go ahed???? Is the same concept... I am an engineer myself, not mechanic, I am in air conditioning. If I fell to mention to my client prior the job that it may be more involved carriing out that particular job....then he/she wont be intrested paying as I havent made him avare. I will hold my hand up and say sorry is my mistake. But thats only me. For some this is practice normal...quote for £300 and then charge £2200. So if you dont do you survey corectlly thats fine I will pay for your mistakes as we go along??? I have stated on a public forum for help as I fill I have been cheeted and wanted other people take on this matter. Thanks anyway but you didnt get the point.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - brighteyes
In all of this I can't believe that a garage hasn't got the kit to remove a broken glowplug, after all it's got to be similar/same as removing a broken head stud. Drill a suitable sized hole, insert a strengthened left hand thread die and screw it in. Once the die has reached the bottom further pressure should then unscrew the glowplug/stud.
BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - nortones2

Agreed. Problem is, most garage mechanics are not versed in engineering. If Googled, BMW and MB are prime candidates, remedies for seized and mangled glow plugs are legion, together with comments on how to avoid a breakage. Penetrating oil anyone?

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - RobJP

HJ has answered this now in his Q and A section -

www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/57542/legal-advi...e

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - agirhea

Yes it did but dosn't help... I know now that is a delicate job to remove fused glowplug and expensive. I understand... My question was, are they correct to quote me for £300 and later ask for £2200? Have they dealt corectly by not identifiying and not informing costumer of possible outcome? In the end of the day there is not couple of houndreds difference, is £1900. I did not have a final decision to procede or not as my agreement for the job was based on £300.... I am not holding them responsible for snaping the glow plug. I am holding them responsible for failing to inform me for a possible outcome that is excruciatingly more expensive than their original quote. Thank you anyway for your feedback. Regards.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - RobJP

Yes it did but dosn't help... I know now that is a delicate job to remove fused glowplug and expensive. I understand... My question was, are they correct to quote me for £300 and later ask for £2200? Have they dealt corectly by not identifiying and not informing costumer of possible outcome? In the end of the day there is not couple of houndreds difference, is £1900. I did not have a final decision to procede or not as my agreement for the job was based on £300.... I am not holding them responsible for snaping the glow plug. I am holding them responsible for failing to inform me for a possible outcome that is excruciatingly more expensive than their original quote. Thank you anyway for your feedback. Regards.

Hell, anything is, as you put it, a 'possible outcome'. They could have taken all the glow plugs out and found that the head was cracked. According to you, they should inform you that that is a possibility, no matter how remote.

As I said in my last post, HJ himself has now answered this. If you aren't happy with that advice, which has cost you nothing at all, then I suggest you go and pay for a solicitor.

BMW 5 Series E60 - Service - FP

"My question was, are they correct to quote me for £300 and later ask for £2200? Have they dealt corectly by not identifiying and not informing costumer of possible outcome? In the end of the day there is not couple of houndreds difference, is £1900. I did not have a final decision to procede or not as my agreement for the job was based on £300...."

Hang on - higher up you said the price had been renegotiated to £836. In your first post you said the quotation was for £300+. (That, by the way, does not sound like a quotation - more like an estimate.)

I think it would be unreasonable to balk at that. You were told it might be more than £300. You have to accept that, in the real world, it's often impossible to give a firm estimate, and I doubt very much whether a garage would ever give a written quotation in those circumstances. So I don't think you can challenge them legally.

However, I'm sure you do have a point here, though it's more a question of communication than anything else. There should have at least been a conversation along the lines of: "We think the job will cost you somewhere between £300 and £350, sir, but we need to warn you that glowplugs can sometimes be very difficult to remove, and the price could easily more than double."