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Wed 9 Jul 2014 16:07

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - Firmbutfair

Given that for every 10 kWh (units) of electricity made 'available for use' in our homes, the far distant, Midlands based fossil fuel (coal or natural gas) powered power station has to generate 37kWh of 'heat energy' then surely it makes much more economic and ecological sense for us to generate our own electricity as close to home as possible? (This is because 27 units of the 'heat energy' generated at the 'distant' power station is 'lost' in the generation process and in its journey of many, many miles over 'lossy' overhead power lines from the 'furnace/boiler/generator' to the wall socket in your home). Similarly, if nuclear power is used to replace the fossil fuel 'furnace' the remaining stages of generation, transmission and distribution are subject to the same 'heat losses' as are involved in those same process stages in the fossil fuel case.

The nominal efficiency of the process is further diminished in the use of mains electricity in our homes to charge up the 400 volt 5/10/22/24 kWh 'battery' in an electric (EV) or in a petrol-electric hybrid (PEHV) car or motorcycle. Typically between 30 and 50% more electricity than is actually stored as usable energy in the battery, has to be 'drawn from the mains' in the battery charging process. Finally the conversion of stored electrical power in the battery to motive force in the car is no more than 85% efficient. Thus 'doing the maths' we can see that for the EV or PEHV, the 'conversion efficiency' from power station to 'motive power on the road' is between 10/37 x 1/1.5 x 0.85 = 0.153 and 10/37 x 1/1.3 x 0.85 = 0.177 i.e. the conversion efficiency is between 15% and 18% with a typical value of 16.4% for coal fired electricity generation. In contrast the conversion efficiency between petroleum based fuels burnt in an internal combustion engine (ICE) and 'motive power on the road' is typically around 18%.

If the petrol/diesel burning ICE had been 'invented' before the electric car and the steam engined car were introduced in Europe, towards the end of the 19th Century, then the electric car would probably never have been seriously considered for anything other than certain 'niche' applications such as milk delivery 'floats' since the 'start/stop' nature of this activity is ideally suited to rechargeable battery-electric propulsion. (Milk delivery floats, and golf buggy carts, commonly seen in the mid to late 20 th century even used heavy Lead-Acid batteries and yet they seemed to work satisfactorily).

P.S. As a final example of benchmarking 'comparison' - the 'conversion efficiency' of solar energy to 240 volt rms a.c. electricity, using modern, roof mounted domestic solar panel arrays etc, is around 15% - makes you think doesn't it ?

Do I feel a range of futuristic, Hydrogen Fuel Cell based, electric, light weight, personal transport vehicles with their associated, supporting, geographic, Europe wide infrastructure coming along in the next decade or so ?

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Wed 9 Jul 2014 16:31

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - Wackyracer

I have said alot of that before on many motoring discussions.

Electric cars are not zero emission vehicles. They have pretty much the same if not worse emissions that an internal combustion engine. The only different is an electric car's exhaust pipe is the chimney of the supplying power station.

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Wed 9 Jul 2014 17:46

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - RT

To Londoners, where all the important decisions are made, EVs are zero emission because all the crap from coal, gas and oil-fired power stations goes somewhere else in the UK while wind-power blights many of our scenic areas and nuclear power is a nightmare waiting to happen.

EVs should be banned unless you live within 10 miles of a hydro-electric scheme!

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Thu 10 Jul 2014 12:22

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - Firmbutfair

I have said alot of that before on many motoring discussions.

Electric cars are not zero emission vehicles. They have pretty much the same if not worse emissions that an internal combustion engine. The only different is an electric car's exhaust pipe is the chimney of the supplying power station.

I absolutely agree with you Wackyracer - indeed in this Honest John Forum, the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe Electric Cars are now being 'labelled' with a 'real world' equivalent power station CO2 rating in the region of 88 to 98 gms per km, since their electric charge is often derived from conventional coal or gas fuelled power stations in the UK (and more so now in Germany) whereas in France, they come out at a much lower 12 to 15 gms per km because France is virtually 100% Nuclear Fuelled.

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Wed 9 Jul 2014 17:47

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - Brit_in_Germany

A very simple "analysis" IMO. What about CHP, nuclear, CO2 scrubbing, urban fine particulates etc. etc.

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Wed 9 Jul 2014 19:13

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - Bolt

Imo I cannot see any other drive for cars than petrol/diesel electric for at least 20 years,development costs for one I think will prevent much further r&d

I read that lead acid batteries could be used instead of LI and hold more current for longer,with more efficient motors being developed as well hybrids could be the best option, they are becoming more popular

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Thu 10 Jul 2014 21:17

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - focussed

Good post with a lot of good reasons why electric power is nowhere near as efficient as the green lobby and the government would have us believe.

Government ministers and the green slime that advise them obviously have a tenuous grasp on the reality of the situation. They just think that because you plug it in like the wife's Hoover it must be cleaner and greener, none of that nasty difficult to understand internal combustion engine stuff.

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Thu 10 Jul 2014 22:14

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - corax

plug it in like the wife's Hoover

The wife's eh?

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Thu 10 Jul 2014 23:57

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - Sofa Spud

Electric cars plus renewable energy = zero emissions.

Petrol and diesel cars when oil runs out = zero emissions.

Oil is a finite resource and eventually we will have to rely on renwable or nuclear power sources ( and uranium is also a finite resource). Oil isn't going to run out any time soon, but we need to reduce consumtion of finite resources to make them last longer. So while electric vehicles won't suit everyone, it's worth developing viable ones for those who do want them. I would imagine that a lot of the development work on pure electric cars is applicable to range-extender hybrids, and vice versa.

I think that a large proportion of cars will be electrically driven in the future, being made up of a mixture of range-extender hybrids and pure electrics.

The one to watch is the Tesla Model S - and how durable their batteries are. But from videos they look to be amazing cars - not just amazing electric cars, but amazing cars full-stop.

The days of niche model electric cars like the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe or the hybrid Vauxhall Ampera might be numbered, but only because electric and hybrid drive will increasingly become options on mainstream models alongside diesel and petrol.

VW now offer the E-Up! and the E-Golf, for example. I'm not so sure if Tesla would ever offer an internal combustion engine option, though!

Edited by Sofa Spud on 11/07/2014 at 00:12

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Fri 11 Jul 2014 00:29

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - Bolt

Were going to need a lot more power stations if most cars go over to all electric,even if some power comes from solar,so I think its going to defeat the object of the exercise imo

with so many complaints about wind farms producing electricity and probably never making their money back,I doubt many more will be made though stranger things have happened,this is why I think nuclear is the only way to go,solar takes up too much space for the area you need so I think thats a waste of time

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Fri 11 Jul 2014 13:57

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - alan1302

Were going to need a lot more power stations if most cars go over to all electric,even if some power comes from solar,so I think its going to defeat the object of the exercise imo

with so many complaints about wind farms producing electricity and probably never making their money back,I doubt many more will be made though stranger things have happened,this is why I think nuclear is the only way to go,solar takes up too much space for the area you need so I think thats a waste of time

I think it's probably fair to say that we are going to have to start paying mroe for electricity in the future and it will come from a variet of sources. Long term though Nuclear Fusion is a very interesting conecpt - if it can be turned into a reality it will certainly help out a lot.

A lot of people don't think/don't care aboutt he long term future and so don't think we need alternatives to fossil fuels. It's the same kind of short term thinking that no doubt the same people complain about when the council badly fill in a few pot holes rather than sorting out the roads properly!

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Fri 11 Jul 2014 20:14

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - corax

A lot of people don't think/don't care aboutt he long term future and so don't think we need alternatives to fossil fuels. It's the same kind of short term thinking that no doubt the same people complain about when the council badly fill in a few pot holes rather than sorting out the roads properly!

Yes, what do people think about their kids future if not their own?

I wonder what the internal combustion engine inventor, engineer Etienne Lenoir would think if he saw that it was still being used over 150 years later, but refined using different materials and electronics.

"I would have thought that they'd have come up with something new by now".

Maybe.

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Fri 11 Jul 2014 19:46

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - Sofa Spud

Were going to need a lot more power stations if most cars go over to all electric,even if some power comes from solar,so I think its going to defeat the object of the exercise imo

with so many complaints about wind farms producing electricity and probably never making their money back,I doubt many more will be made though stranger things have happened,this is why I think nuclear is the only way to go,solar takes up too much space for the area you need so I think thats a waste of time

Most new large wind farms are being built miles offshore, where there are no nimbys.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 11/07/2014 at 19:46

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Fri 11 Jul 2014 20:14

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - groaver

Most new large wind farms are being built miles offshore, where there are no nimbys.

You didn't see Donald Trump's "outrage" then?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-s...0

You'd think some boffin could come up with a "gas capture" system for all the cattle in the UK.

Remember the old slogan, "Save gas, f*** in a jar"? ;)

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Fri 11 Jul 2014 22:12

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - groaver

www.isciencetimes.com/articles/7082/20140418/cow-p...m

Haha! Someone got their first!

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Fri 11 Jul 2014 19:59

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - corax

,solar takes up too much space for the area you need so I think thats a waste of time

It depends where you are putting them. Other countries have vast areas of desert and long sunshine hours making them a viable alternative.

The real turning point will be when oil simply becomes too expensive to drill for as the wells that are easy to access dry up.

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Fri 11 Jul 2014 21:32

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - Bolt

,solar takes up too much space for the area you need so I think thats a waste of time

It depends where you are putting them. Other countries have vast areas of desert and long sunshine hours making them a viable alternative.

The real turning point will be when oil simply becomes too expensive to drill for as the wells that are easy to access dry up.

I meant in Britain,we dont have the room to build houses let alone solar panels

As for oil I have doubts we will be running out any time soon,and if hybrids/Diesels are improved on with more efficient motors/less emissions I think oil could last a bit longer.

I dont see all Electric going much further but may be wrong?

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Fri 11 Jul 2014 22:22

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - alan1302

,solar takes up too much space for the area you need so I think thats a waste of time

It depends where you are putting them. Other countries have vast areas of desert and long sunshine hours making them a viable alternative.

The real turning point will be when oil simply becomes too expensive to drill for as the wells that are easy to access dry up.

I meant in Britain,we dont have the room to build houses let alone solar panels

As for oil I have doubts we will be running out any time soon,and if hybrids/Diesels are improved on with more efficient motors/less emissions I think oil could last a bit longer.

I dont see all Electric going much further but may be wrong?

Oil is already starting to run out - it's getting harder to find new reserves and harder to get at the existing ones. They don't want to drill for oil in tough places like Antartica for fun it's because it's all there is.

I personally think electric cars are where it's going to be in the future. It will be quite a few more years yet of developement to go and Hybrids have started the ball rollinging but I think it will end with all electric.

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Sat 12 Jul 2014 00:44

ANY - Inefficiency of Rechargeable Battery-Electric Cars - Bolt

With technology coming on in leaps and bounds it will be very interesting to see what happens.

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