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Tue 1 Jul 2014 11:36

parking fine - paulh300

I am in dispute with Armtrac security services for the issue of a parking ticket on private land in the centre of St Ives. I came to the parking area fully intending to pay for my time there. I drove to a parking bay and as I got out of the car to go over to the ticket machine, a driver leaving gave me his ticket with time left. I used this and left. On return, an attendent of the parking area approached me before I had got to my car to inform me that he had issued a parking penalty.

He also freely admitted that he had watched me from about 20 m away drive into the car park and accept the ticket from the leaving driver in full knowledge that (as I discoveed) the rule for this parking area is that the ticket are non transferable.

He also admitted to knowing that I had not reached the ticket machine and therefore would not be fully acquainted with the rules of the parking area

I asked him why he had not just come over to me - from 20m away and just mentioned that tickets were not transferable. "Not my job" was his reply.

While I understand that, technically I have broken the rules of this parking area, the circumstances seem like a deliberate attempt to make money and essentially, the attendant was complicite in the misdemeanour.

I have now received a letter from Armtrac rejecting my appeal.

Would you consider this worth challenging ?

thanks

paulh300

Edited by paulh300 on 01/07/2014 at 11:36

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 11:57

parking fine - barney100

Not very helpful of the bloke not to tell you tickets were non transferable but that seems a rule in most car parks. Seems best to save yourself the aggro and pay up.

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 12:09

parking fine - Mike H

FWIW, my opinion is that if there were no signs regarding the transfer of tickets (or not, in this case) that were easily visible before you accepted the ticket, then you can't be deemed to be at fault. Whether you want to argue the point is your decision. And I don't know the state of the current law, but it may not be a legally enforceable fine anyway, in which case they can huff and puff as much as they like to no effect!

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 12:18

parking fine - paulh300

Thanks for the feedback ...

It does state on the back of the ticket that it is 'non transferable' but I only found this when I got back to the car. For all I know, the driver who offered me the ticket might have been in league with the parking attendant, but i would not be able to prove this.

There seems to be differing opinions about whether the issuing of tickets on private land is actually legal and can indeed be enforced. Difficult to find definitive answer on this

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 13:29

parking fine - RT

Thanks for the feedback ...

It does state on the back of the ticket that it is 'non transferable' but I only found this when I got back to the car. For all I know, the driver who offered me the ticket might have been in league with the parking attendant, but i would not be able to prove this.

There seems to be differing opinions about whether the issuing of tickets on private land is actually legal and can indeed be enforced. Difficult to find definitive answer on this

Put the details on Pepipoo website - they'll give you good advice, whichever way is best.

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 14:10

parking fine - daveyjp

If this is a private car park you have received no more than an invoice. If the attendant was close he is duty bound to mitigate losses and should have told you the rules.

That's history, start here:

forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816...2

and you will end up with cash still in your pocket.

Did AMTRAC provide a POPLA code with the refusal? If not they are in breach of the code of practice for their scamming operation.

Edited by daveyjp on 01/07/2014 at 14:11

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 16:38

parking fine - paulh300

AMTRAC did provide a POPLA code with the refusal

Do you think I could appeal solely on the basis of 'mitigating losses' and that the attendant was duty bound to inform me ?

Is there case law for this ?

Should I use the POPLA appeal for this or not appeal and ignore any further correspondence ?

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 18:27

parking fine - daveyjp

Read the link i gave, it tells you everything you need to know.

Forget anything about mitigating circumstances, you will lose at POPLA. The key is to get them to prove the amount they demand is a Genuine Pre Estimate of Loss. It won't be.

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 16:42

parking fine - FP

As I understand it, any attempt by the parking company to take you to court would hinge on two things: the effectiveness (visibility, clarity) of the signage (since this is deemed to form the "contract" between the driver and the company) and a claim for damages that reflects the loss of revenue, damages or whatever caused by the driver's breaking the rules of the contract.

The first point has been mentioned above. The second is clearly a non-starter, as the transfer of a ticket did not deprive the parking company of any revenue. Creating a rule for the non-transferability of tickets is just a way of maximising revenue.

An interesting case. I would underline the advice about looking at www.pepipoo.com and availing yourself of their support, should you decide not to pay. I think I might fight it.

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 17:12

parking fine - paulh300

Thanks FP

As far as I remember the signage was clear, although as I have mentioned, I drove into the car park and parked BEFORE intending to go to the ticket machine to buy a ticket which I think 99% of people do.

The non-transferability of tickets seems to be a gray area .... most of us understand that it does indeed maximise their revenue but I have not found anything to suggest that having the clause "non transferable" in terms and conditions is in fact legal

I have already been onto the forum ar Pepipoo.com and ma getting similar advice particularly relating to the mitigation of losses referring to the fact that attendant in the parking area made no attempt - from 20 m away sitting in his car - to inform me of a breach of the rules

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 18:22

parking fine - Andrew-T

... the second is clearly a non-starter, as the transfer of a ticket did not deprive the parking company of any revenue. Creating a rule for the non-transferability of tickets is just a way of maximising revenue.

Leaving aside the legality of charging to park on private land, that's not strictly true - if the OP had not luckily been given a half-used ticket, we must assume that he would have bought one for himself. I'm not sure who is scamming who, here? The OP's post suggests that rather than having 'not reached the machine' he didn't intend to, after receiving the ticket. So some revenue has been lost, at least in theory.

I know a lot of tickets do get handed on, but personally I wouldn't feel comfortable trying this one on.

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 21:59

parking fine - paulh300

I had driven into the car park with every intention of buying a ticket and because I was not planning to be very long there, accepting the offered ticket seemed like an ok thing to do.

It would seem to make sense to me to emphasise the fact that the parking attendant had witness all my actions from no more than 20 m away and in 20 sec could have made me aware of the 'so called' rules. His complicity in the 'misdemeanour' is palpable and deliberate.

And I agree that the charge is completely disproportionate to the ticket charges

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 22:32

parking fine - FP

"... if the OP had not luckily been given a half-used ticket, we must assume that he would have bought one for himself."

Yes - I take the point, but what I really meant was that the parking space had been paid for for the duration. It happened to be occupied by two cars in succession, not one. From that point of view, the parking company was not out of pocket.

I'm not a lawyer, but it would be interesting to know the legality of a contract involving non-transferrable tickets. If a service has been paid for once, is it legal to charge for a part of that service a second time? Maybe it is - I don't know.

Edited by FP on 01/07/2014 at 22:34

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Wed 2 Jul 2014 10:03

parking fine - RT

"... if the OP had not luckily been given a half-used ticket, we must assume that he would have bought one for himself."

Yes - I take the point, but what I really meant was that the parking space had been paid for for the duration. It happened to be occupied by two cars in succession, not one. From that point of view, the parking company was not out of pocket.

I'm not a lawyer, but it would be interesting to know the legality of a contract involving non-transferrable tickets. If a service has been paid for once, is it legal to charge for a part of that service a second time? Maybe it is - I don't know.

Getting them to show their "genuine pre-estimate of their losses" would be interesting - where they've already been paid for the use of that space.

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Wed 3 Sep 2014 16:44

parking fine - paulh300

Today I received a judgement from POPLA which upheld my PCN appeal against Armtrac in Cornwall

My appeal to Armtrac way back in June was (inevitably) refused so I issued an appeal to POPLA.
With some very good advice and help from this forum and PePiPoo, I appealed on the following points - Genuine pre-estimate of losses, Failure to mitigate losses, Duty of care, and Terms of Contract.

They did not address all of the points raised by me but allowed the appeal on the grounds that the charge was not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.
POPLA found that Armtrac had "sought to justify the charge" but they failed to do so.

This is the first time I have appealed against a PCN and was staggered at the amount of paperwork that Armtrac sent in to justify their claim - and the majority of it was completely irrelevant to the case (such as numerous photos of my car parked correctly)
I can now see how many people are frightened into paying up when confronted by this 'official looking' wad of paperwork when I suspect that many cases could easily be fought without too much time and effort .
The fact that these private companies are allowed to get away with reaping literally millions from an unsuspecting public is tantamount to criminal

Anyway, thanks again for several pieces of good advice from people on this forum and to Honest John for providing a valuable sounding board and service

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Thu 4 Sep 2014 00:07

parking fine - FP

Glad to hear of your positive outcome and well done for your persistence.

Edited by FP on 04/09/2014 at 00:12

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 20:47

parking fine - thirts

I'm not saying I am right on this but if this was me I would want my day in court with them (but that's me, and I'm bit a***y, but I would also costs out and mentally accept the costs of losing).

Although, I may offer them £5 or £10 as full and final settlement.

Failing that they would have to take you to court if they want to enforce the charge, and it is a charge and not a fine. And the court woul decide if the actions they had taken were acceptable or not.

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Tue 1 Jul 2014 21:01

parking fine - nortones2

The price of a ticket should suffice to meet the debt!

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Wed 2 Jul 2014 17:40

parking fine - AlexT

"He also freely admitted that he had watched me from about 20 m away drive into the car park and accept the ticket from the leaving driver in full knowledge that (as I discoveed) the rule for this parking area is that the ticket are non transferable. "

1. What is his problem?

2. That is a stupid rule. Someone payed for that space for a particular length of time and should be able to use it as he sees fit, as long as he is not breaking the law or something silly.

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Wed 2 Jul 2014 22:28

parking fine - Bromptonaut

2. That is a stupid rule. Someone payed for that space for a particular length of time and should be able to use it as he sees fit, as long as he is not breaking the law or something silly.

So it would be OK to walk into a pub and just eat leftovers and drink abandoned dregs?

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Wed 2 Jul 2014 22:41

parking fine - RT

2. That is a stupid rule. Someone payed for that space for a particular length of time and should be able to use it as he sees fit, as long as he is not breaking the law or something silly.

So it would be OK to walk into a pub and just eat leftovers and drink abandoned dregs?

Invalid comparison - it would be ok to walk into a pub and accept a pint or food from someone who has paid for them but doesn't want to finish them.

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Wed 2 Jul 2014 23:21

parking fine - galileo

Suppose you are at a railway station (I refuse to recognise the current fad for calling them 'train' stations) and a traveller leaving offers you the return half of his ticket as he's changed his plans.

A closely comparable situation, but I think rail tickets are also supposed to be non-transferable, you are only using a service already paid for and which otherwise the supplier has had money for nothing.

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Wed 2 Jul 2014 23:22

parking fine - AlexT

"Invalid comparison - it would be ok to walk into a pub and accept a pint or food from someone who has paid for them but doesn't want to finish them."

That is correct. Not necessarily a stranger, if you bumped into someone you knew and they offered some of their food would that be non-transferable?

Anyway, today I was really incommodated by someone leaving their car wherever they feel like it, and after 4 hours of video editing (my computer is not that fast and I'm not that good at this sort of thing) I can show you what really deserves a fine:

youtu.be/mGueKJB3Tgk

The red car was just there, empty, he didn't even bother pulling it to one side so people could pass. Chanses are he won't get a ticket, unless someone calls city hall or something...

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