I was widely reported on an international scale - the US manufacturers were banging this drum for all it's worth to try to win back customers from Toyota - the point is when Toyota get something wrong (as all manufacturers do) they fix it and stand by their customers.
"Stand by their customers" - yeah of course, nothing to do with potential legal action and the notorious litigious USA customers!
Toyota are the same as all of them - cover it up until bad publicity makes it more cost effective to to a recall.
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You obviously did not read the articles. It appears that Toyota tried to cover up the incidents blaming them on floor mats or sticky pedals, and denying any problem woth the electronics.
The design of their Ecu's have been uncoverved as as being defective. Here are some extracts.
On Thursday October 24, 2013, an Oklahoma court ruled against Toyota in a case of unintended acceleration that lead to the death of one the occupants. Central to the trial was the Engine Control Module's (ECM) firmware.
It wasn't loose floor mats or a sticky pedal that caused the sudden acceleration of a 2005 Camry in an accident that killed one woman and seriously injured another on an Oklahoma highway off-ramp in September 2007. The electronic throttle control system did it.
This was the closing argument of the plaintiffs' attorneys. In contrast, attorneys for Toyota blamed the crash on driver error.
In a verdict delivered Thursday afternoon, an Oklahoma County jury found Toyota's in-car technology liable for the crash
Using an exhaustive 56-slide PowerPoint presentation and citing his 18 months examining Toyota's automotive software "source code," Barr convinced the Oklahoma jury that Toyota had deployed dangerously flawed software in its cars. Despite Barr's findings, Toyota continues to claim that all its unintended acceleration problems were mechanical, the result of misplaced floor mats and "sticky" gas pedals.
Neither NHTSA, with its absence of software expertise, nor the NASA Engineering and Safety Center -- to which NHTSA turned to study the Toyota problem -- were able to pinpoint a software cause for unintended acceleration. Nor were they able to rule out the possibility.
The NASA researchers, who were both on a deadline and not allowed to study Toyota's source code, simply ran out of time, noted Barr.
Under court order, a team from the Barr Group was allowed into a specially built "code room" provided by Toyota. They were able to pinpoint at least one anomaly that could have caused Toyota accelerators to build up speed while disabling the brake system. Barr also found numerous Toyota violations of software design standards. Toyota, in many instances, even broke its own rules for safe design and system redundancy.
Edited by brum on 07/06/2014 at 14:14
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So what are you trying to prove?
Don't buy a Toyota?
What car do you suggest I buy that is guaranteed never to have a problem?
It was widely reported in the news for weeks at the time.
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The court ruling was not widely reported. Toyota continue to blame floor mats and sticky pedals, but it has been proven in detailed investigation by qualified experts that Toyota electronics designs in one example at least are not fit for purpose and are unsafe - in the sense they can kill you.
This may be a case of denial and corporate cover up which nowadays seems to be a part of Japanese corporate culture.
It may also be a more wide spread issue among other manufacturers - I know from personal experience of an unsafe software issue in my 1998 VW group tdi ecu. I found out during an overtaking manouver that if the dual track throttle position sensor throws a discrepancy (the two devices disagree, because of some fluff on one of the tracks), then the ECU immediately removes power (engine speed appears fixed at around 1300) and is unresponsive until the ignition is turned off. In my case, the panic during an overtaking manouever with oncoming traffic was averted by the van/long trailer driver I was overtaking who recognised I was in trouble and braked to allow me to limp past in time.
I wonder how many fatal accidents there have been that have been blamed on driver error when its been directly or indirectly caused by a software "feature"?
In the case of Toyota Camrys at least, it appears that Toyota continue to deny there is a problem and people continue to drive them with flawed ECUs. With parts bin approach to manufacturing, whats the chance the Toyota you are driving have faulty software?
I would like all car manufacturers to be more open. Details about ECU updates should be made public. Silent recalls should be banned - everyone is entitled to know when any issue is identified with their car.
GM are finding out that coverups will eventually get out - in the case of GM after many deaths.
Edited by brum on 07/06/2014 at 15:12
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US courts are not necessarily the ultimate authority on technical matters.
At the Inquiry into the loss of the Titanic, it was asked why the passengers could not have shut themselves in the 'watertight compartments' and thus survived.
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At the Inquiry into the loss of the Titanic, it was asked why the passengers could not have shut themselves in the 'watertight compartments' and thus survived.
An interesting comment - the designers and the owners of the Titanic knew very well the compartmental design was not water tight, and yet allowed the "unsinkable" myth to become "fact" among the general public. Did they ever deny it prior to that eventful day? They also had a corporate cavalier attitude to safety - not enough life boats because of commercial interests.
We all know the consequence of their negligence. More than 1500 men women and children died.
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GM did not fix a problem and killed 13 people and were only fined $45M despite knowing about the problem for a number of years... tinyurl.com/pw5dzab
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As has been well reported over many years, almost every incident of unintended acceleration is linked to elderly drivers who are not in total control of their automatic cars.
They press the gas pedal instead of the brake unintentionally; when they accelerate, they try to stop but simply stamp harder on the gas. It is Toyota being balmed now, previously it was Audi and also GM.
There are very few examples of this anywhere outside the US. Having had many many automatic cars in the family over 40 years, and there being many owners of automatic cars in the Backroom, I have not heard of one simple incident happening to someone I know. Has anyone else?
Where I have heard it happen is where the rubber mats did get trapped and caused the car to accelerate.
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As has been well reported over many years, almost every incident of unintended acceleration is linked to elderly drivers who are not in total control of their automatic cars.
The analysis of Toyota's firmware by Barr group was only presented in court in late 2013. Toyota has denied everyone access to their software including NHTSA and NASA who were originally tasked with the investigation. Access to this critical piece of evidence was eventually obtained under court order.
As a former firmware designer, I can assure that Barr's analysis is of excellent qualty and uncovers the slipshod approach to safety critical electronics that Toyota has and continues to deny despite being found guilty.
I expected a lot of resistance from the diehard Toyota believers here, but I am quite amazed no one here seems able or willing to read the articles and the other links they contain.
This court ruling is the first of manyhundreds that are expected to follow. $3 million were awarded in damages in this case.
In America, at least, it has been established beyond any reasonable doubt, that the electronic throttle firmware, as implemented by Toyota is responsible for at least one death.
As noted by others, other manufacturers may also have many skeletons locked away in their cupboards.
Edited by brum on 08/06/2014 at 22:22
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No resistance from this Toyota fan, this one wouldn't buy any car with a stop start button, i'll have a key thanks and i'll kill the ignition if the throttle jams wide open.
Or i'll knock the car into neutral and stop, if i can't knock it into neutral i've never yet driven a car* that the brakes couldn't easily overpower the engine, so i'll stop anyway.
I in no way attempt to defend any maker about this particular issue, nowhere near clever enough to make such a judgement.
My own point of view is there are far too many electronic driver aids on vehicles now and every year it gets worse, when all a driver has to do is turn the steering wheel, then natural driver reactions and automatic driver control, indeed driving skill diminishes, drivers become steering wheel attendants..this is happening in the commercial vehicle and PCV sectors, aided and abetted by a vehicle industry and licencing authorities who can't dumb things down quickly enough.
The more electronic carp they put on cars designed to take control of the vehicle the more potential for disaster.
I'll stick with cars that still require some driver input, i'll start my own engine traditionally, i''l let off my own parking brake and operate my own wipers and lights ta very much, when i'm too gaga to manage those simple things i'll pop down the nick and hand me licence in.
**i did own one car the engine might have outpowered the brakes, i had a 71 Mustang Boss with the small 5.7 V8, drum brakes all round with no servo, that might have been touch and go..;)
Edited by gordonbennet on 08/06/2014 at 23:17
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At last! A well thought out post that reponds to the issue I'm trying to discuss.
Although my life has revolved around developing new electronic processor based designs, I totally agree that in the last few years, electronics are getting out of hand in many areas, and as they become more complex the scope for silly mistakes and flawed designs have increased exponentially.
Many new designs are often based on bought in complex sub systems and operating systems that are not understood at all well by usually very young and very inexperienced designers. Testing is something all designers hate, they all tend to have god complexes and cannot conceive their design as flawed. And we all know, even the best funded and resourced teams dont guarantee good or perfect software.
Do we need electronic handbrakes? Is a software controlled, single stop/start button, really a good idea? I'm pretty sure that would never ever be allowed on industrial machinery without an adjacent red mushroom button that is hardwired...
Unbelievably, as part of Barrs analysis:-
They were able to pinpoint at least one anomaly that could have caused Toyota accelerators to build up speed while disabling the brake system.
Edited by brum on 09/06/2014 at 00:33
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Compare the Ford Explorer debacle to anything Toyota ever caused. The Ford "fix" to a rolly polly car was to under-inflate the tyres - causing them to overheat and burst. A complaining tyre manufacturer were told to shut up or lose thier business.over 100 passengers and drivers killed as a result. Gimmie a Toyota anytime.
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"They were able to pinpoint at least one anomaly that could have caused Toyota accelerators to build up speed while disabling the brake system."
But not proven that the anomaly did cause the Toyota accelerators to build up speed whilst disabling the braking system.
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But not proven that the anomaly did cause the Toyota accelerators to build up speed whilst disabling the braking system.
But it was proven , in a court of law in Oklahoma, using expert witnesses. Unfortunately, the prime witness died in the accident, so was unable to give evidence herself...
The court case result was decisive in Toyota agreeing to pay $1.2 BILLION earlier this year to conclude a four-year criminal investigation into the Japanese automaker's disclosure of safety problems.
news.yahoo.com/ap-source-us-announce-1-2b-toyota-s...l (not that anyone here will read it)
Anyway, its quite likely that in the future, the EU will mandate black box recording technology in all new cars, so all you old codgers who die at the wheel of your beloved vehicles, we should know better what really happened....
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The fact that the jury believed an expert who said he found flaws in the electronics that could have caused the unintended acceleration, is a distance away from proving the flaws did cause the problem.
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A city corporate lawyer once told me that US juries tend to base their decision on the one with most money has too pay, ie the manufacturer.
Vidio footage of an US incident with a driver who happened to be a policeman showed the car accelerating because the 'throttle was stuck' , then crashing - perhaps US cars are different but mine has a handbrake, brake pedal, and ignition switch.
A person in a subway who attempted to commit suicide was foiled by the train drivers quick reaction in braking, though the individual suffered serious injury, needless to say he took the New York authority to court and won significant damages.
A person who purchased coffee at a takeway, spilt it on themselves, and was awarded damages because it was hot and they suffered minor burns.
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