|
My idea of driving pleasure is 6+ cylinders (or 4+ cyls blown) and a proper torque converter auto box.
Diesels tend to be good with TC auto boxes.
You couldn't pay me enough to consider an automated manual, might be just about bearable on the open road but at slow speeds heavy traffic junctions or manoeuvering, words fail me....DSG is nice on the open road but has the automated manual's disadvantages.
Only my opinion, other find the two latter types fine.
I've driven lorries with automated manuals now for about 10 years full time, and early examples back in the 90's, apart from Volvo which it must be said are the best at these things, the rest are several shades of putrid and i haven't got a good word for them.
|
|
|
|
If I had a lot of city/stop-go (even the usual motorway phantom jams) driving to do, I’d have an automatic; and I did so in the past when I had those circumstances.
But, I’m presuming that most people on this forum ‘enjoy’ ‘driving’, and for me, changing gear with a stick is part of the enjoyment of activity of driving. If you take away the gear stick and the clutch pedal, I only have to steer, accelerate and brake. If they ever get around to automating those too, then ‘driving’ will be dead and I’ll be no more than a passenger.
So it’s a question of degree. I’d happily have an automatic again if circumstances dictated, but to me it doesn’t feel like ‘proper’ driving unless it’s a manual. (But I am, at least, too young to demand an ignition-advance control on the steering column.)
Maybe it IS a European thing: I guess with the vast distances, and broad highways that are sometimes arrow-straight to the horizon, Americans (for example) might prefer to be able to set everything on autopilot and just have a kip on the back seat. ( ? )
|
|
Thanks for these posts which help my thinking. If it weren't for concern that diesel is unsuitable for my mileage and motoring, rarely motorway and never long distance, I'd have a better choice. I like Volvos but few petrol automatics and I've frequently read to avoid diesel Volvos over 4 years old. For me driving is just getting from A to B safely with as little stress as possible rather than enjoyment. Some cars have been ruled out because of electronic handbrake ( can't stand ) and/or no spare wheel ( may or may not ever matter but I like to have one ). If only I could come by a fortune and have one made specially to my preferences !
|
|
|
I guess with the vast distances, and broad highways that are sometimes arrow-straight to the horizon, Americans (for example) might prefer to be able to set everything on autopilotautopilot<*** style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% transparent ! important; border: medium none ! important; display: inline-block ! important; float: none ! important; height: 10px ! important; margin: 0px 0px 0px 3px ! important; min-height: 0px ! important; min-width: 0px ! important; padding: 0px ! important; vertical-align: super ! important; width: 10px ! important;" src="http://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png" alt="" />
The irony is that this type of driving is where a manual would shine-just change into top and leave it there for 200 miles.
I wouldn't dismiss CVTs as far as small engine/auto box combinations are concerned. Yes they whine when you step on it, but with conventional autoboxes, the torque convertors have to be so loose when mated to small engines. that they drone almost as much in stop start traffic.
Madf has one. All that yoga has rendered his left leg imobile. Maybe he'll chime in.
p.s. Sorry about that stupid hyperlink. Website 'feature' I presume.
Edited by unthrottled on 04/04/2014 at 19:40
|
|
My 2012 Honda Jazz has a CVT mated to a conventional torque convertor. Transmission losses are minimla according to Honda- mpg is slightly better than a manual.
VERY smotth gearchange - no jolting.. makes town driving in stop/start and parking very very easing. Just point and go.. When you get to my advanced years and senility coupled with physical decrepitude (thanks unthrottled :-).. you appreciate these things...
Heard no bad reports at all.
It's a 7 speed CVT with floppy paddles but I have used the paddles tice in nearly 2 years.. Yes if you acclerate hard, it changes down several gears so you get 4,000 rpm and the VTEC engine gets on cam.. and it is a little noisy - but mainly engine noise.
Far better than a traditional torque convertor and huge transmission losses. Automated manuals? designed by the devil. When they go wrong, lots of garages make things worse trying to fix them... and they DO go wrong.
I'd drive a CVT any day vs a manual.
(prior auto experience includes Mercedes E series, Jaguar XJ6 and a BMW 6 series.. and various US hire cars.)
|
|
Quite fun to drive: it changes up through the gears without fuss if you are averse to CVT mode. SWMBO wasn't keen going up 1 in 3, but there aren't that many and you can counter that by selecting a suitable gear manually. When they bring out a pokier motor I can see us changing back to Honda and either their CVT or twin-clutch auto: maybe 2015?
|
|
|
|
|
The Europeans fascination with manuals is perplexing. Nothing will make a 1.2 Corsa fun. VW Scirocco maybe, but not a Corsa.
Get an automatic. Why make life more difficult?
Each to their own - my 1.0 Corsa was a lot more fun to drive with it being a manual. At least in my opinion.
Never fancied getting an automatic to be honest - I prefer to have something to do when driving and changing gear is all part of the fun.
|
|
When tired , changing gear in traffic moving at 5mph for 5 miles is a pia.
|
|
Each to there own I suppose - I get traffic each evening coming home from and enjoy trying to see just how slow I can creep along! LOL
|
|
Thanks everyone, especially madf. I understand the mercedes A class CVT is linked to a torque converter which would make it similar to your experience, that would be excellent if I find it the same when I test drive. I am now much better informed and prepared.
|
|
|
Each to there own I suppose - I get traffic each evening coming home from and enjoy trying to see just how slow I can creep along! LOL
People who leave a one car gap in front of them in a queue at the traffic lights then slowly creep, stop, creep forward when the lights are still red - why? If I'm behind them I stay where I am until the lights change.
Maybe it wouldn't bother me so much if I had an auto, but I still don't see the point.
Not pointing any fingers at you alan1302 :)
|
Each to there own I suppose - I get traffic each evening coming home from and enjoy trying to see just how slow I can creep along! LOL
People who leave a one car gap in front of them in a queue at the traffic lights then slowly creep, stop, creep forward when the lights are still red - why? If I'm behind them I stay where I am until the lights change.
Maybe it wouldn't bother me so much if I had an auto, but I still don't see the point.
Not pointing any fingers at you alan1302 :)
LOL I'm not guilty of that one!
Edited by alan1302 on 05/04/2014 at 23:02
|
|
|
|
|
When tired , changing gear in traffic moving at 5mph for 5 miles is a pia.
Leave a gap.
Also I generally don't shift gears at 5mph. Tickover in first will do just fine. ;)
|
When tired , changing gear in traffic moving at 5mph for 5 miles is a pia.
Leave a gap.
Also I generally don't shift gears at 5mph. Tickover in first will do just fine. ;)
And you have to brake and dip the clutch when slowing down and accelerate and release clutch when youy want to move.
With a CVT you can creep on idle and just use the brake to slow you down.. When your legs ache after hard exercise or through cold or old age then an auto takes all the hassle out of creeping ..:-)
|
|
madf I will not buy a car unless I have tried CVT. Can anyone here confirm if Mercedes A/B class CVT is mated with a torque converter ? that appears to make a big difference rather than just CVT in general. One of my problems is trying to get the best option for both shorter town driving and longer holiday runs.
|
|
Don't know about the specifics of Mercedes, but all CVT trannies have to have a means of modulating drive from standstill. Otherwise it's rather like starting a racing bike from a run-up! Can be a centrifugal clutch (original Honda CVT and Honda Cub bike) or a TC (current Jazz CVT), simply to take up the drive.
Edited by nortones2 on 05/04/2014 at 21:49
|
|
|
|
hen your legs ache after hard exercise or through cold or old age then an auto takes all the hassle out of creeping ..:-)
But what about DVT? I find the frequent leg extensions to be useful against aches and cramps. Conversely, it's the right leg that aches because of the constant small movements of throttle control and nowhere to stretch it out.
|
hen your legs ache after hard exercise or through cold or old age then an auto takes all the hassle out of creeping ..:-)
But what about DVT? I find the frequent leg extensions to be useful against aches and cramps. Conversely, it's the right leg that aches because of the constant small movements of throttle control and nowhere to stretch it out.
Same here, it's holding the foot in place that makes my muscles ache
Seeing as we're designed to walk miles a day I think I can live with the heavy cable clutch in my Berlingo (Not moaning, love the fact it's cable. Less to go wrong. )
|
|
I've got cable as well. Every time someone moves my car they whine about the weight of the clutch pedal. I don't notice it.
Now, if I get round to putting a stiff spring on the fridge door, I'll have a full body workout sorted!
|
|
CVT, paddle shift and cruise control. The best of both worlds and you can put your feet wherever you like!
|
|
If I want exercise for my leg muscles, I do squats or walk miles.
Pushing a pedal is bad for the muscles in your foot.. Try standing on your toes after driving.
|
|
unthrottled you need a go in my car.
You can take your foot off at 70mph and it just keeps going. Move your legs about all over the place before it starts slowing down.
Actually it'll do that at 30 as well tbh.
|
|
Small car with low power engine then manual every time. Large car with powerful engine then auto please. Draw the dividing line at your discretion.
|
small car with low power engine than manual every time.
I'm an auto sceptic but I'd quibble with this under certain circumstances. A torque convertor can multiply torque when below the stall speed of the stator . This can flatter acceleration from a standing start. Shifting under load is a double edged sword: better acceleration, but shorter lifespan of clutch bands.
To my mind robotised manuals take the worst aspects of manual and automatic transmissions. You still have the weak point of the drivetrain (clutch plates), but none of the advantages of a torque concertor (torque multiplication, vibration damping effect etc.
|
Small car with low power engine then manual every time. Large car with powerful engine then auto please. Draw the dividing line at your discretion.
Modern CVTs have better acceleration than the manual equivalent - you cannot change gear as quickly manually - nor select the best speed at which to change gear as well... And better fuel consumption as well...
Edited by madf on 06/04/2014 at 13:17
|
And better fuel consumption as well...
42mpg. pfft!
I get that from the old meggie with a bigger, (much) older engine. V belts need a lot of tension (hydraulic losses) and there's still slippage. CVT has advantages but efficient it is not.
|
|
Are you jesting unthrottled? You must know that the Honda CVT (and VAG too) use segmented steel belts. Very little slippage, and as efficient as a manual IMHO. Rubber v-belts on scooters maybe, but not on larger engines.
|
|
It's the same principle. Tension and slippage is the price you pay for lacking the positive engagement of cogs' teeth
CVTs get flattering numbers on NEDC because of the low engine torque requirements of the test and hence low tension and slippage.
The presence or absence of a transmission cooler is a good indicator of transmission efficiency. Manuals virtually never have them. CVTs and conventional autos normally do. I wonder why!
|
|
Interesting. I suppose it's a balance between the gains through better ratio choice and the current greater frictional losses of belt/chain CVT compared with MT. I've read recently that 6DCT loses about 10%, compared with 15% for a push-belt CVT.
|
I wouldn't dare to argue with the engineering principles. My comments in support of manuals in small low powered cars and autos in large powerful ones are based merely on my personal preferences of how they feel to drive.
I quite like ragging around in a little petrol manual and I also quite like wafting about in a big lazy auto.
Just that really. Nothing more.
|
|
Absolutely - nothing technical is it: just a feeling, which I share. I want a small car to be nippy and - just as important - to feel nippy: whereas the bigger the car the more I feel like cruising.
Even with an engine the size of mine (2.0 TSI), the last Octavia had DSG and there was still the feeling of being held back by the transmission - none of which happens with the current one, with a manual gearbox.
Maybe you need to go over 2 litres for an automatic car to sound truly effortless.
|
|
The 'nippy off the line' was based on my friend's mobility Corsa B. It only had a 1.2 litre engine but I'd say it was quicker than a manual from a start to about 20-30mph. And it was smooth. No lurching in first. Above 30 mph, though, the autobox was tiresome. It constantly droned, and it it sapped a fair chunk of what little power the engine had.
But around Oxford's traffic-light blighted roads, it was very effective.
And of course slush box rules the roost amongst drag racers!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
