ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg

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Sat 22 Feb 2014 14:28
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - bikerwales

Hi

I have owned various Fiesta Diesels models for 25 years and driven them over the same route. I recently bought a 6 month old ford fiesta "econetic" 1.6 diesel edge and the fuel economy is frankly appaling. I am now getting under 40 mpg on what is an urban cycle route which is way way below the government figures, the Honest John average (85% of claimed,) and also 20% less than I used to achieve on the same route with all 3 previous fiesta diesels (which all had emission levels over that claimed for this model). It has been in for inspection under warranty twice and as there are no fault codes reported, the dealer and Ford will do nothing about it.

I reckon I am now paying around £200+ a year more on fuel for this car than I would, have on my previous models.

I am so incensed by this and the lack of response from the deaer (and Ford) that I am plannng to take the dealer to small claims court to claim back these extra costs.

If anyone has had a similar experience I'd really appreciate their advice

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Sat 22 Feb 2014 16:58
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - skidpan

The figures quotes are the "Official EU" ones, nothing to do with the dealer and they are the only ones that by law anyone is able to quote. It clearly says in both the brochures and in the showroom that it is unlikely that the figures are achieveable in the real world since they are obtained in a laboratory.

Since the dealer is only diplaying and or quoting the only figures the law allows him to quote/display you would loose any court case.

If you are going to take anyone to court it needs to be the organisation that lays down the proceedure for arriving at these figures and publishes them. That is the European Parliament.

But there is one aspect that you have not mentioned, low mpg figures mean low CO2 figures and these mean low (or zero) RFL. Because of that I am happy being realistic about my MPG expectations when buying a car (anywhere between 75% and 85% of the official combined) and paying b***** all RFL.

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Sat 22 Feb 2014 17:23
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - RT

Your expectations are unreasonable - "advertising" MPG figures is banned by the ASA - but EU tested figures MUST be shown. Any court action is bound to fail.

Have a look at Honest John's Real MPG section

www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/

www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/ford/fiesta-2013/16-t...c

45-50 is a reasonable expectation.

Edited by RT on 22/02/2014 at 17:25

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Sat 22 Feb 2014 17:49
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - bikerwales

RT

If you check the link you've posted this is showing as 56% of the official figures and is also a lot lower than it was a few months ago. This is by comparison with overall averages being shown as 85% of offical figures. 85% is reasonable in my view (and is what my previous models returned on the same route) 56% is not.

As for RFL I was only paying £30 on my previous Fiesta Diesel model so compared with the £200+extra i'm now paying for fuel that is little compensation

Edited by bikerwales on 22/02/2014 at 17:50

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Sat 22 Feb 2014 20:12
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - Bromptonaut

How many miles on this 6month old car? It might take several thousand for it to loosen up completely.

It's also winter at the moment, cold and wind will both affect fuel consumption.

To get near the lab figures you'll need to drive very carefully indeed, feather feet on the accelerator and 60 rather the 80 on the motorway.

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Sat 22 Feb 2014 20:15
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - Armitage Shanks {p}

The mpg you get is the mpg you get and is not sublect to a warranty of any sort. Don't forget you will a lower mpg in the winter. My 2 litre petrol Focus is 7mg down now on what it gave me in August on like-for-like driving. 30 instead of 37.

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Sat 22 Feb 2014 23:31
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - Andrew-T

Don't forget you will a lower mpg in the winter. My 2 litre petrol Focus is 7mg down now on what it gave me in August on like-for-like driving. 30 instead of 37.

Despite looking for one, and keeping careful measurements, I have never been able to convincingly prove worse consumption in winter with my Peugeot diesels. Two or three mpg at most. But I suppose my driving habits are not typical.

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Sun 23 Feb 2014 07:39
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - RT

Don't forget you will a lower mpg in the winter. My 2 litre petrol Focus is 7mg down now on what it gave me in August on like-for-like driving. 30 instead of 37.

Despite looking for one, and keeping careful measurements, I have never been able to convincingly prove worse consumption in winter with my Peugeot diesels. Two or three mpg at most. But I suppose my driving habits are not typical.

The reduction will depend on driving pattern - the slightly reduced energy content of winter diesel would affect all patterns - but the effect of the prolonged warm-up affects short trips far more than long trips.

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Sun 23 Feb 2014 12:13
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - bikerwales

Many thanks for the feedback, ideas and discussion.


I didn't notice a big difference between winter and summer on my previous Fiesta Diesels, although at the last count mine is now only achieving 37 mpg and when I took it to the dealer in January it was returning 39.5 mpg.


The car had done 9,500 miles when I bought it so should have loosened up by now hopefully.


This article on the AA site
https://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuels-and-environment/official-fuel-consumption-figures.html
makes interesting reading, including suggestions that figures are now on average 21% lower than claimed. However mine is running at 44% lower so I consider that to be a whole other ball game!

Given Ford's press release regarding their new Econetic models (see here:
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/03/27/new-ford-fiesta-econetic-gets-71-mpg-in-europe/
and click the Press Release button) I would certainly have expected to at least achieve the same mpg as on my previous models, and not more than 20% less I used to get a regular 50mpg from my 1.4 TDCI for instance.


My own observation is that this model warms up much more slowly than all the previous ones I have owned and is probably not reaching efficient operating temperature, but then shouldn't that be reflected in the urban cycle test figures which are higher than quoted for all my previous models?

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Sun 23 Feb 2014 12:23
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - Armitage Shanks {p}

SFAIK the test is conducted with an engine at operating tepmerature so your long warm up isn't going to help! Assuming my ancient brain has read your last paragraph corretly!

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Sun 23 Feb 2014 12:41
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - RT

The EC test cycle is carried out at an ambient temperature of 20-30 degrees C - the car will have had 24 hours heat-soak at that temperature before starting the test.

So it's likely that cars are tested at 30 C to minimise the warm-up time.

Given the extremes in Europe of a Scandinavian winter and a Mediterranean summer, it's quite ridiculous to just use one temperature for the EC test.

Edited by RT on 23/02/2014 at 12:41

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Sun 23 Feb 2014 12:41
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - bikerwales

As you say RT:)

- sorry posted the same thing but hadn't seen your reply above

Edited by bikerwales on 23/02/2014 at 12:50

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Mon 24 Feb 2014 14:34
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - dieselnut

" My own observation is that this model warms up much more slowly than all the previous ones I have owned "

Perhaps your thermostat isn't closing properly or opening at too low a temperature.

Try driving from cold for a couple of miles then stop before the temperature guage has got to normal. Feel the top of the radiator, it should still be cold.

Also some engines have a seperate thermostat fitted to the oil cooler. If this sticks open it will have the same effect of overcooling the engine giving poor MPG.

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Mon 24 Feb 2014 19:51
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - bikerwales

Thanks dieselnut I'll check that out

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Mon 24 Feb 2014 20:36
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - Armitage Shanks {p}

Which modern, non exotic car actually has an oil cooler fitted, in 2014? Intercoolers on turbo charged cars are frequently water cooled but that isn't going to be affecting things at start up time.

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Mon 24 Feb 2014 21:01
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - RT

Which modern, non exotic car actually has an oil cooler fitted, in 2014? Intercoolers on turbo charged cars are frequently water cooled but that isn't going to be affecting things at start up time.

Some non-exotic Subaru's (Outback 2.5 petrol) and Hyundai's (Santa Fe 2.2 diesel) have engine oil heat exchangers - fed by the coolant heater circuit, they help to warm the oil up during warm up and then remove excess heat when hot - but in the versions I've seen there's no thermostat.

In many cases, autoboxes using a cooler in the "bottom" tank of the radiator have a thermostat inside the transmission.

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Mon 24 Feb 2014 21:09
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - gordonbennet

Some non-exotic Subaru's (Outback 2.5 petrol) and Hyundai's (Santa Fe 2.2 diesel) have engine oil heat exchangers - fed by the coolant heater circuit, they help to warm the oil up during warm up and then remove excess heat when hot - but in the versions I've seen there's no thermostat.

Yes, my (hardly modern) MB has a similar heat exchanger, renewed it together with the water pump whilst the engine was dismantled when the CHG started to seep in the autumn.

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Tue 25 Feb 2014 10:45
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - dieselnut

" Which modern, non exotic car actually has an oil cooler fitted, in 2014? "

Ford used to use one in their Tdci engine & it was common for them to fail open causing overcooling & poor MPG. I dont know if they still have one in the latest models.

Vw use oil coolers in a lot of their engines, certainly on the old 1.9 Tdi & their latest 2l CR engine, although no thermostat. It probably enables them to use a smaller sump getting the oil up to temperature quicker.

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Tue 25 Feb 2014 10:36
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - Scottie Boy

I once had a 2.0 diesel Kia Sportage KX3 which according to the EU figures should have done well over 50mpg. In reality it did around 36 mpg. I now have a Mondeo 2.0 Tdci and I don't expect anything near the EU tests 74mpg however it does the mid 40s on the urban travels so I am delighted. It would seem to my friend tho every individual car seems to be different, even identical vehicles for some reason.

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Tue 25 Feb 2014 11:08
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - skidpan

No car myself and the wife have owned since the about 2000 has done anthing like the official combined but there again when we bought them we did not epect them to. Our usage has remained pretty much the same and the Actual figures were calculated over at least 35,000 miles except for the Seat Leon which we have only had for 8 months.

2002 Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCi 130 PS Official combined 47 mpg Actual 38 mpg Diff -20%

2005 Ford Focus C-Max 1.6 TDCi 110 Ps Official Combined 57 mpg Actual 45 mpg Diff -21%

2008 BMW 118D 143PS Official Combined 63 mpg Actual 48 mpg Diff -24%

2010 Kia Ceed SW 1.6 CRDi 115 PS Official Combined 60 mpg Actual 51 mpg Diff -15%

2013 Seat Leon 1.4 TSi 140 PS Official Combined 55 mpg Actual 45 mpg Diff -18%

If we used the car more in town the actual mpg figures would be lower and as I said above being realistic I would accept that.

No manufacturer has overcome the laws of physics despite what the official figures suggest. It still takes pretty much the same amount of bhp to cruise at 70 mph as it has always needed and although the fuel needed to produce that power has reduced slightly due to improved design those improvements are nothing like those indicated in the official figures. Our actual figures do appear to have improved over the years and our RFL bill has plumeted, very happy with that.

But at the end of the day every 1.6 diesel will do about the same mpg so in truth it does not matter which you buy from an economy point of view, just buy the car you like.

All makes have these crazy eco models that have stupidly high figures but the tests are carried out on a rolling road and these eco models are undoubtably optimised to maximise the the test proceedure. In the real world stop/start makes little (if any) difference and the stupidly high gearing the eco warriers are saddled with probably makes things worse on the road since you are forever changing gear.

Anyone who buys a new car simply to save money is immediately onto a looser due to depreciation, no improvement in fuel economy will pay for that.

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Tue 25 Feb 2014 16:25
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - Scottie Boy

I think though cars have come a long way with regard to mpg as 20 or so years ago a standard family saloon such as a Vauxhall Viva HC with an underpowered 1256cc engine , a four speed gearbox and single stromberg carb would struggle to hit 85mph and give 28 mpg while now a 1.0 Ford Fiesta will easily give excess of 100 mph and 55 mpg. I think the big problem to all & sundry is the price of petrol and diesel. It is so expensive the motorist is cgecking returns more than ever when at one time no one really was that bothered!!

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Tue 25 Feb 2014 16:40
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - thunderbird

20 or so years ago a standard family saloon such as a Vauxhall Viva HC with an underpowered 1256cc engine , a four speed gearbox and single stromberg carb would struggle to hit 85mph and give 28 mpg

20 years ago? The Viva HC was a 1970's car, that's 40 years ago and most had died before the end of the 80's.

20 years ago a standard family saloon was probably something like a late Sierra or early Mondeo. Easily do 100 mph but not much better on mpg.

Back in the 70's I had a Viva HC with the 1800cc engine. Still underpowered with a 4 speed box (like virtually all 70's cars) and a single carb but it would just struggle to 100 mph given a following wind and a long hill. In winter it would average about 16 mpg on my 4 mile commute.

Anyone for the good old days?

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Tue 25 Feb 2014 17:25
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - Scottie Boy

I stand corrected , I believed the HC ran from 1971 to 79, from J reg to V reg and they were awful!!! I was forgetting what age I was for a moment Thunderbird , The Ford Sierra I think came out in 1982, a 1.6 base or standard pumped out 75bhp and did about 103 mph and not terribly great on petrol, compare that to my 2013 Mondeo 2.0 Tdci pushing out 163 bhp and 137mph combined with fantastic fuel economy , I think progress has been amazing in automotive circles

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Tue 25 Feb 2014 16:47
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - nortones2

I was intrigued by the 28mpg for the Viva. Motor road test annual I have gives 28mpg overall, as you say, and 36.6 touring! However, the test was published 18 December 1965. Quite a while ago:) More interesting cars on test that year included the 6.9 litre Oldsmobile Toronado (fwd) with chain transfer from the TC to the 3-speed planetary gear train. 128mph, 8.1 0-60. Drum brakes. 9.1mpg overall.

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Tue 25 Feb 2014 16:58
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - RT

I used to get 30mpg, just, from a '72 1.1 Escort mk1 which spent much of it's life at an indicated 80+ on the M6/M74 and A94/A92 between NE Scotland and the Midlands.

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Tue 25 Feb 2014 17:30
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - Scottie Boy

Thst would be a Vauxhall Viva HB with an even more underpowered 1159cc engine and bodywork so thin tinfoil was thicker than most of the panels

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Tue 25 Feb 2014 20:23
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - bikerwales

If we're heading off down memory lane then my first Ford (a 100E Popular) did about 25mpg, went from 0-60 in 34 seconds on a good day and the windscreen wipers didn't work going up hills.

Despite this I had been a loyal Ford fan for 46 years, until I bought this gas guzzling "Econetic"!

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Wed 26 Feb 2014 10:19
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - Andrew-T

I think though cars have come a long way with regard to mpg ...

This thread started out about diesels, and I'm sure car diesels have come a long way in mpg. Petrols, I'm not so sure. Back in the mid-60s I got 44mpg from a Morris 1100 touring round the western States - probably about the optimum conditions for mpg. In the early 90s a similar car (1.1-litre 205) could manage about 50mpg. That was before rules and regs started increasing the weight of cars, and users got to enjoy all the toys manufacturers put on to make them buy.

Even now, not many petrol cars will manage much over mid-50s. Am I right?

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Wed 26 Feb 2014 10:33
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - NorthernBoy

do you have the 'live' mpg reading on your car? i use it on my fiesta econetic and get around 70 out of it - found if you slighly press the pedal further down it drinks like a fish. its about how you drive it if that makes sense.

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Wed 26 Feb 2014 10:51
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - skidpan

This thread started out about diesels, and I'm sure car diesels have come a long way in mpg. Petrols, I'm not so sure.

Had mostly diesels since the mid 90's, the last petrol car we had for any length of time was a Ford Puma, 1700 cc, 126 PS and averaged about 33 mpg. Prior to that in the mid 80's to mid 90's I had 2 Golf GTi's, 1800 cc, 112 bhp and an average of about 34 mpg. They were all quickish cars but nothing to set the world alight, compared to a modern 2 litre turbo diesel the overtaking acceleration was positively leisurely.

Move forward to last year when I bought a new Seat Leon 1.4 TSI. 140 PS, incredible performance, much better than you would think possible from a petrol considering it weighs considerably more than the Golfs and Puma and its averaging just over 45 mpg (calculated). Way quicker than the old Golf GTi's which were a benchmark in their day and are still considered the best classic hot hatch.

Trust me, some petrols have come a long way.

When we bought the Seat we also tried a Kia Ceed 1.6 GDi. 135 PS but unlike the Seat no turbo, it was a slug unless you were over 4500 rpm all the time. On a 2 hour test drive the dispay showed 33 mpg over a mixed route at legal speeds. Suppose in isolation that was good compared to a 70's Vauxhall Viva.

As I said, some petrols have come a long way.

Edited by skidpan on 26/02/2014 at 10:53

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Wed 26 Feb 2014 10:56
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - galileo

do you have the 'live' mpg reading on your car? i use it on my fiesta econetic and get around 70 out of it - found if you slighly press the pedal further down it drinks like a fish. its about how you drive it if that makes sense.

Older members may remember the Mobil Economy Runs which took place in the 50s and 60s and the amazing mpg figures achieved from 'standard' cars (such as 35 mpg from a 2.6 litre 26cwt Ford Zephyr). Joe Public could never get near these figures in normal driving. Not sure how 'standard' the cars were though!

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Wed 26 Feb 2014 20:19
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - bikerwales

northern boy - yes I do have the live mpg and I have tried my best to change up when the arrow tells me. I haven't been using a heavy boot as I actually wanted to get the best out of it, but whatever I try I'm still getting under 40mpg round town, whilst I used to get around 50 on my 1.4 tdci which I drove for 8 years on the same routes and in the same driving style

Part of the reaon for buying the "Econetic" was that I thought the Stop Start would improve mpg (some claims out there it makes 10% difference) but that rarely kicks in - the dealer gave me a huge list of conditions when it won't work (not all accurate mind you) - but so many that it seems a complete waste of space to be honest!

Edited by bikerwales on 26/02/2014 at 20:22

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Wed 26 Feb 2014 21:42
ford fiesta econetic 1.6 diesel - taking ford dealer to court over low mpg - Scottie Boy

I am employed as an HGV Driver and the company I work for has a large fleet of mostly MAN, DAF & Mercedes artics , the Mercedes Actros' on the fleet have an economy feature that when driving along on cruise control at the set speed if it overruns the revs drop to 'save' fuel then when they kick back in the engine requires a big gulp of diesel, meanwhile the DAF XFs that do not emoloy this system sre much better on fuel, strange eh?

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