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Research into stopping cars by microwaves - hillman

The New Scientist magazine has an article in issue 2947 about the EU and the UK authorities funding research into devices for use by the police and military to stop speeding vehicle by firing radio pulses at them. They are cognisant of the difficulties that motorist would have if the engine of their car stopped while in a high speed chase. Difficulties like disengagement of power steering and braking.

It seems that the military already have devices that can 'fry' a vehicle's electrics.

This is something to watch.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - Ethan Edwards

Maybe some kind of trebuchet to lob big Microwaves at passing vehicles..... Otherwise I'd hate to be near the target car when the local plod unleash their EMP scattergun.

Really we need to leave the EU and install a UK Gov that occasionally takes it's head from up it's orifice.....soon.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - gordonbennet

Ethan, you speak for millions of us.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - martint123

Looks like a British creation rather than EU?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25197786 (with video)

Some experts the BBC has spoken with suggested that turning off the engine in this manner would not stop vehicles rapidly enough. Others worried about what effect it might have on a car's electronic brake and steering systems.

"Certainly if you took a 1960s Land Rover, there's a good chance you're not going to stop it,"

Edited by martint123 on 22/12/2013 at 10:56

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - TedCrilly

Have the `Others` considered that when vehicles are taken and persued by the authorities the outcome is often messy and the risks to the public high even when the brakes and steerng of the stolen vehicle are in full working order? But who is saying the device will be used in the traditional `Police Stop Action` pursuits we see on TV?

My point being it would be an ideal way of stopping a car being driven normally by occupants who did not realise they were being persued. In fact I would be surprised if the powers that be do not already have access to such devices.

Whats even more surprising is the Daily Express have not claimed one was used on Princess Dianas Merc`!!

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - RichT54

Also how long will it be before some Chinese company starts building their own version and sells them on eBay? Could prove nasty in the hands of fanatics or terrorists or even just an anti-social individiual.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - Armitage Shanks {p}

A bit like these Rich - http://www.wickedlasers.com/?gclid=CIaZsOeqxLsCFTHLtAodikoAzw. Commonly pointed at police helicopters and airliners landing

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - Andrew-T

I would have thought in my simple-minded scientist's way that most metal bodywork would be an effective microwave screen. Plastic cars, maybe?

Sounds like the rumours that went around Germany in WW2 when the Nazis were doing things in the Harz mountains, most likely to scare civilians away from their radar experimentation.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - galileo

It seems that the military already have devices that can 'fry' a vehicle's electrics

The military may well have such a device, of so I'd imagine it is mounted on a large truck with a 500kW generator to provide power for the microwaves.

Enough power to stop engines would likely make car occupants feel warm too.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - mss1tw

dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/other-shows/videos/futu...m

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - wafer
Seen stuff years back on American TV that claimed to use RF to scramble the signals in the ECU but did not do permanent damage.
Research into stopping cars by microwaves - madf

A simple Faraday cage protects from micowaves.(otherwise microwave ovens would fry their users through the window..)

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - Firmbutfair

The New Scientist magazine has an article in issue 2947 about the EU and the UK authorities funding research into devices for use by the police and military to stop speeding vehicle by firing radio pulses at them. They are cognisant of the difficulties that motorist would have if the engine of their car stopped while in a high speed chase. Difficulties like disengagement of power steering and braking.

It seems that the military already have devices that can 'fry' a vehicle's electrics.

This is something to watch.

Yes, radio signals are used in these systems but they do not need to be powerful enough to 'fry' or damage the ECU electronics/sensors in the suspect car - such action is very crude and could bring it abruptly to a halt, cause it to swerve violently or cause it to run faster and faster, out of the control of its driver - like a 'runaway' car. The design objective of the current more sophisticated systems under development is to allow the chase car to get close enough to the suspect vehicle to take full 'remote control' of the suspect car such that the steering can be controlled, the maximum engine power available can be gradually reduced and such that the brakes are applied progressively. By this means the suspect car can be brought safely to a complete halt whilst at the same time the doors and windows can be closed and locked shut to trap the supects in the car being pursued.

In future all new cars could be fitted with a standard 'remote control' transceiver that also relays data to the chase car and allows full remote control to an internationally agreed set of standards. These transceivers and associated remote control functions would be fully integrated and embedded deeply into the ECU and sensor electronics such that they could not be disabled by simply cutting a few wires or removing a plug-in module. The same transceiver technology is also being developed for use throughout the EU to allow vehicles to be automatically speed limited by roadside tranpsonders to say 20 mph when driving past schools and to say 30 or 40 mph in built up areas.

Edited by Firmbutfair on 11/01/2014 at 01:35

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - kerbed enthusiasm

I'm sure that I'm being completely paranoid here but I'd have some concerns about the potential for criminal abuse of such a system.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - madf

Kitchen foil round wiring and ECU will probably disable such systems... As will a hammer applied to the roadside emitters...

Or a microwave beam at the emiiters or a jamming device (which would be simple to devise)

Solved.

Edited by madf on 11/01/2014 at 11:19

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - Firmbutfair

I'm sure that I'm being completely paranoid here but I'd have some concerns about the potential for criminal abuse of such a system.

I share your concern 'kerbed enthusiasm' with so much 'hacked' software now freely available or 'on sale' on the internet - for a small fee. Only yesterday, I read an article about car thieves simply using "a little black box" to unlock unattended vehicles in order to help themselves to any valuables inside.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - mss1tw

I'm sure that I'm being completely paranoid here but I'd have some concerns about the potential for criminal abuse of such a system.

I share your concern 'kerbed enthusiasm' with so much 'hacked' software now freely available or 'on sale' on the internet - for a small fee. Only yesterday, I read an article about car thieves simply using "a little black box" to unlock unattended vehicles in order to help themselves to any valuables inside.

Funnily enough the thought entered my head the otherday as I 'blipped' my Berlingo that it must be so easy to capture and re-transmit the locl/unlock code.

Unless they work on a rolling code system but it sounds like they can work around that as well.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - Firmbutfair

I'm sure that I'm being completely paranoid here but I'd have some concerns about the potential for criminal abuse of such a system.

I share your concern 'kerbed enthusiasm' with so much 'hacked' software now freely available or 'on sale' on the internet - for a small fee. Only yesterday, I read an article about car thieves simply using "a little black box" to unlock unattended vehicles in order to help themselves to any valuables inside.

Funnily enough the thought entered my head the otherday as I 'blipped' my Berlingo that it must be so easy to capture and re-transmit the locl/unlock code.

Unless they work on a rolling code system but it sounds like they can work around that as well.

Thanks 'mss1tw' - I have found a link to the article I read - it includes a video which shows how nonchalant the theives are - unbelievable CCTV video and worrying for all of us who park our cars on the driveway overnight. See below:

news.msn.com/science-technology/high-tech-car-thie...e

Re your 'capturing and re-transmit the lock/unlock code' I can remember some time ago when central locking via an infra red key was common - and we were all warned to be careful to get really close to the car sensor before locking or unlocking our car since anyone with a PDA with built in IR link could stand close by and 'capture' our unique key code, store it on their PDA and then use it as soon as we left our car unattended. The IR link was essentially a 'near field' link but modern RF keys have a much greater range - maybe in excess of 30 metres radius and therefore the opportunities for illicit 'capture' by a potential thief are now greatly enhanced.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - mss1tw

Thanks 'mss1tw' - I have found a link to the article I read - it includes a video which shows how nonchalant the theives are - unbelievable CCTV video and worrying for all of us who park our cars on the driveway overnight. See below:

news.msn.com/science-technology/high-tech-car-thie...e

Re your 'capturing and re-transmit the lock/unlock code' I can remember some time ago when central locking via an infra red key was common - and we were all warned to be careful to get really close to the car sensor before locking or unlocking our car since anyone with a PDA with built in IR link could stand close by and 'capture' our unique key code, store it on their PDA and then use it as soon as we left our car unattended. The IR link was essentially a 'near field' link but modern RF keys have a much greater range - maybe in excess of 30 metres radius and therefore the opportunities for illicit 'capture' by a potential thief are now greatly enhanced.

Worrying for me - I'd be disappointed if my Berlingo itself was stolen, but out of a job if they took the contents (>£2000 of elecrical tools and materials)

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - Firmbutfair

Thanks 'mss1tw' - I have found a link to the article I read - it includes a video which shows how nonchalant the theives are - unbelievable CCTV video and worrying for all of us who park our cars on the driveway overnight. See below:

news.msn.com/science-technology/high-tech-car-thie...e

Re your 'capturing and re-transmit the lock/unlock code' I can remember some time ago when central locking via an infra red key was common - and we were all warned to be careful to get really close to the car sensor before locking or unlocking our car since anyone with a PDA with built in IR link could stand close by and 'capture' our unique key code, store it on their PDA and then use it as soon as we left our car unattended. The IR link was essentially a 'near field' link but modern RF keys have a much greater range - maybe in excess of 30 metres radius and therefore the opportunities for illicit 'capture' by a potential thief are now greatly enhanced.

Worrying for me - I'd be disappointed if my Berlingo itself was stolen, but out of a job if they took the contents (>£2000 of elecrical tools and materials)

Do not worry mss1tw, the 'professional thieves' are mainly interested in stealing prestige cars 'to order' so your tools should be safe as long as they are out of sight in the boot and the vehicle is locked.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - mss1tw

Worrying for me - I'd be disappointed if my Berlingo itself was stolen, but out of a job if they took the contents (>£2000 of elecrical tools and materials)

Do not worry mss1tw, the 'professional thieves' are mainly interested in stealing prestige cars 'to order' so your tools should be safe as long as they are out of sight in the boot and the vehicle is locked.

Good point - and another plus point for driving an anonymous-looking vehicle.

(The steps on the roof are an unavoidable clue, though!)

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - hillman

Thank you "firmbutfair" post dated 11th Jan. This has given me a reason to continue refurbishing my Wolseley.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - Firmbutfair

Thank you "firmbutfair" post dated 11th Jan. This has given me a reason to continue refurbishing my Wolseley.

Ooh 'hillman' a Wolseley 1500 cc ? A very modern looking car or maybe like a Riley Pathfinder as used by the Police ?

On second thoughts maybe a Wolseley Hornet/Riley Elf - both based on the Austin 7 Mini but with a little boot added at the rear ? Any road up you should be immune from any form of remote control or 'interception' with any of the above slassic cars with their simple electro-mechanical, distributor based ignition circuits and brushes on your dynamo etc - indeed all of this classic technology including your 'splashy' contact breaker points and unsuppressed spark plug HT leads should generate more their own wideband RF interference, with the added bonus of generating an effective localised 'jamming' signal to upset/confuse the 'modern' transponders !

Edited by Firmbutfair on 17/01/2014 at 09:09

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - Avant

Somewhere I'm sure I've seen Hillman say it's a 6/110 - the big Farina-bodied one thaty came after the 6/90. Early to mid 1960s I think.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - hillman

"Ooh 'hillman' a Wolseley 1500 cc ? A very modern looking car or maybe like a Riley Pathfinder as used by the Police ?

On second thoughts maybe a Wolseley Hornet/Riley Elf - both based on the Austin 7 Mini but with a little boot added at the rear ? Any road up you should be immune from any form of remote control or 'interception' with any of the above slassic cars with their simple electro-mechanical, distributor based ignition circuits and brushes on your dynamo etc - indeed all of this classic technology including your 'splashy' contact breaker points and unsuppressed spark plug HT leads should generate more their ownwideband RF interference, with the added bonus of generating an effective localised 'jamming' signal to upset/confuse the 'modern' transponders !"

firmbutfair, I started out with a Wolseley 4/44 and if you want a project that's the one to aim for. The next Wolseley I owned was a 1500, not the same kind of animal at all. I think the 4/44 and the one that followed it (4/50 ?) were the last true Wolseleys. The 1500 seemed to be based on the Morris Minor. Everything after that was 'badge engineered', based on other models from the British Leyland line up. My present Wolseley, which I've had since the early 70s is the 6/110. That was based on the Austin Westminster. There were a few variants, including the one with the Rolls Royce engiine, which I think was bought from Army Surplus.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - Firmbutfair

"Ooh 'hillman' a Wolseley 1500 cc ? A very modern looking car or maybe like a Riley Pathfinder as used by the Police ?

On second thoughts maybe a Wolseley Hornet/Riley Elf - both based on the Austin 7 Mini but with a little boot added at the rear ? Any road up you should be immune from any form of remote control or 'interception' with any of the above slassic cars with their simple electro-mechanical, distributor based ignition circuits and brushes on your dynamo etc - indeed all of this classic technology including your 'splashy' contact breaker points and unsuppressed spark plug HT leads should generate more their ownwideband RF interference, with the added bonus of generating an effective localised 'jamming' signal to upset/confuse the 'modern' transponders !"

firmbutfair, I started out with a Wolseley 4/44 and if you want a project that's the one to aim for. The next Wolseley I owned was a 1500, not the same kind of animal at all. I think the 4/44 and the one that followed it (4/50 ?) were the last true Wolseleys. The 1500 seemed to be based on the Morris Minor. Everything after that was 'badge engineered', based on other models from the British Leyland line up. My present Wolseley, which I've had since the early 70s is the 6/110. That was based on the Austin Westminster. There were a few variants, including the one with the Rolls Royce engiine, which I think was bought from Army Surplus.

Yes, I can remember the Wolsely 1500 now, a very good looking 'modern' saloon car. My pride and joy was my Austin A35 van - with windows and rear seat conversion, with its 948 cc OHV engine which I rebuilt with new mainbearing shells, hepolite oil control rings and new exhaust and inlet valves - all ground in by hand, oh plus of course a new clutch assembly - happy days. With grateful thanks to my Dad who borrowed a portable hoist from work (New Holland Engineering R & D Dept) to facilitate the engine removal and replacement.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - Avant

This thread's come a long way - no matter, 'thread drift' is part of the fun. I'm glad it's Hillman refurbishing a Wolseley rather than the other way round: my memories of Hillmans were that they were underpowered and not very reliable - not a good combination.

Just to be nerdy for a moment: the original Wolseley company (the car-making part anyway) went bust in the late 1920s, when there were just too many makers for too few buyers. William Morris bought the company and from the 30s Wolseleys started to look like upmarket Morrises, using mechanicals in common. So you can take your pick as to which you think the last 'real Wolseley' was.

The 4/50 and 6/80 (early post-war) were based on the Morris Oxford and Morris Six: then came the 4/44 (early 1950s) which didn't have a Morris body equivalent but shared basically the same bodywork with the MG Magnette. The 15/50 (mid 1950s) was a 4/44 with the BMC B-series engine, so was a bit livelier.

My first ever car was an Austin A50 with that B-series engine: interestingly it shares with my current Octavia vRS (with the VAG TSI petrol engine) the admirable low-down torque that in between times was mostly found in diesels.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - galileo

My present Wolseley, which I've had since the early 70s is the 6/110. That was based on the Austin Westminster. There were a few variants, including the one with the Rolls Royce engiine, which I think was bought from Army Surplus.

The Princess 4 litre RR engine was a short-stroke version of the military engine, I think, specially developed for BMC for this vehicle.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - hillman

Still, it would need a helicopter with a pretty big magnet to stop the Wolseley 6/110. It's still got copper plug leads so it might interfere with the helicopter electrics.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - RT

My present Wolseley, which I've had since the early 70s is the 6/110. That was based on the Austin Westminster. There were a few variants, including the one with the Rolls Royce engiine, which I think was bought from Army Surplus.

The Princess 4 litre R engine was a short-stroke version of the military engine, I think, specially developed for BMC for this vehicle.

The Rolls-Royce B-series of 4/6/8 cylinder engines were NOT car engines - they were designed for military and commercial vehicles, a mixture of all cast iron and cast iron block/alloy head versions.

The FB60 used in the Princess R was indeed an all-alloy version of the B6, specifically designed/built for Austin by R-R. Production was planned at 5,000/year but Austin could only sell 6,500 in 4 years and then dropped. With no penalty clauses, it lost R-R a lot of money.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - hillman

One of my work-mates in Zambia had a Rolls Royce engined Princess and he told me that he had been riding through the suburbs of the town when the engine ran out of cooling effort and blew. I can imagine that because it got quite hot in the hot season and if the car was crawling along there wouldn't be an awful lot of air going through the radiator.

Back to electromagnet interferance - I once had a problem in the UK, in late evening with weather much like we are having now, of coughing and rough runing of the engine of the Wolseley when I started it up. When I lifted the bonnet in the dark it was like Blackpool illuminations in there. The spark was going along the surface of the plug leads as much as through the core. My neighbour, a very experienced mechanic, advised me to change the plug leads because the insulation had deteriorated. Think what that would do to the present day mobile phone reception.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - RT

I once had a problem in the UK, in late evening with weather much like we are having now, of coughing and rough runing of the engine of the Wolseley when I started it up. When I lifted the bonnet in the dark it was like Blackpool illuminations in there. The spark was going along the surface of the plug leads as much as through the core. My neighbour, a very experienced mechanic, advised me to change the plug leads because the insulation had deteriorated. Think what that would do to the present day mobile phone reception.

All my old cars were like that - that was how I knew when to replace the plug leads - especially when they changed from copper-cored to carbon-impregnated string core.

Research into stopping cars by microwaves - Engineer Andy

Sounds a bit like the old 'microwave jammer' as seen on 'Knight Rider' of old! :-)