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Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - Cluedo

I was reading an article this morning that BMW will be focusing on electric technology as that is the only way they can meet future emmissions regulations - even if that is not what customers want. It is no secret that they are sharing hybrid technology with Toyota - presumably to play catch up. I must now smile at all the negative comments posted on various forums regarding hybrid technology and all the people that criticised Honda and Toyota claiming diesel was superior. it now seems that Toyota and Honda were right all along - even if we think that diesels are better - it seems we will not be ble to afford the technology needed to get emmissions down. Not sure I would be happy buying a hybrid with my own money but looks like in years to come we will have no choice.

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - craig-pd130

looks like in years to come we will have no choice.

It's not a question of which manufacturers have the 'best' technology, or which type of fuel is 'better' than another.

The type of propulsion in the cars we drive is now dictated by emissions regulations that manufacturers have to meet. These regulations are not based on what is best, or most efficient from an engineering point of view, but are purely a set of targets.

The manufacturers then have to work out what compromises they need to make in order to meet those targets. Engine design now starts at the exhaust tailpipe, and works forward from there.

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - RT

We will still have a choice - there's a good many things hybrids will never do - hauling heavy loads for instance, not just HGVs but vans, pickups and those towing trailers/caravans.

Now when fuel cell technology starts to become affordable, that's a different matter.

Edited by RT on 29/11/2013 at 09:52

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - harryletterman

This might change so quicly in this world :)

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - gordonbennet

Hybrid is still in early days, once otherwise wasted (via braking, dwnhill, coasting) energy storage has been compacted enough it will find its way into all modes of transport...if you try to drive a fully loaded lorry without braking as much as possible but slowing down on the vehicles exhaust or other retarder you soon begin to realise just how much energy is being wasted, if, as in hybrid, it could be collected and re-used then all sorts of possibilities arise.

Hybrid may seem expensive now, though i believe Toyotas version are already cost effective for many, but give fuel costs another 15 years and we might all be buying into hybrids or other fuels of one form or another.

BMW and the like will catch up, they and others sell what people want of the moment, and recent years have seen high cost German cars the ultimate image purchase...once BMW and their competitors jump on the bandwago, and the image conscious and/or fashionable celebs start buying in then Hybrid will be the new must have.

I hope Toyota are selling their technology at a good mark up.

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - Ethan Edwards

Hybrid is still in early days,

Really?

Haven't Hybrids been available for purchase by the average UK Joe since about 1997? Seems like quite a while to me. I recall early Honda Insights and weird looking Pruis' Plus didn't Honda make a IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) version of the Civic for a while

Though still more expensive than the equivalent Petrol or Diesel but it seems to me it's only reasonably recently that they have begun to approach a more affordable price with the introduction of the Jazz and Yaris Hybrids. I think the Hybrid technology is more suited to small cars anyway. Colour me happy with my Yaris Hybrid anyway.

Edited by Ethan Edwards on 29/11/2013 at 12:40

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - RT

Certainly, hybrids are more suited to uses where there's a high proportion of stop/start commuting and a low proportion of long distance cruising - but that's the sort of use where public transport can be a viable alternative.

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - mss1tw

We will still have a choice - there's a good many things hybrids will never do - hauling heavy loads for instance, not just HGVs but vans, pickups and those towing trailers/caravans.

Now when fuel cell technology starts to become affordable, that's a different matter.

Apart from all those diesel electric trains... ;-P

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - RT

Apart from all those diesel electric trains... ;-P

They aren't hybrids - they have no form of electrical energy storage, at least not for traction.

The generator/cable/motor arrangement is just a transmission.

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - mss1tw

Apart from all those diesel electric trains... ;-P

They aren't hybrids - they have no form of electrical energy storage, at least not for traction.

The generator/cable/motor arrangement is just a transmission.

What's that Vauxhall Ampera classed as then? ;-)

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - RT

Apart from all those diesel electric trains... ;-P

They aren't hybrids - they have no form of electrical energy storage, at least not for traction.

The generator/cable/motor arrangement is just a transmission.

What's that Vauxhall Ampera classed as then? ;-)

A plug-in hybrid.

The difference between hybrid cars and diesel-electric trains is that the trains have no traction battery - the term diesel-electric is used to differentiate the transmission type from diesel-hydraulic and diesel-mechanical.

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - colinh

Some interesting figures in the DT yesterday from a CAP report:

DEPRECIATION BY FUEL TYPE

Fuel type/average retained value after three years

Petrol/electric hybrid 45.3%

Diesel 44.7%

Petrol 43.6%

Electric 20.2%

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - Snakey

So we're all being edged slowly to hybrid cars or pure electric cars.

But on the other side, airports are being expanded all over the places, and there are no plans for electric planes as far as I can see (how would that even work!), so the green penalties are enforced more and more against motorists!

I'm all for more efficient use of our fuels, but the hypocrisy is staggering, especially from the likes of the greenpeace lunatics who protest at oil being drilled for in the oceans, yet turn up to those protests in great big diesel devouring ships, presumably because they're better than us and allowed to use fossil fuels.

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - daveyjp

"that is the only way they can meet future emmissions regulations"

It's the only way their current business model allows them to meet emissions regulation. There are other ways, but they must believe hybrid is the most cost effective.

Edited by daveyjp on 29/11/2013 at 13:12

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - bazza

My understanding is that the move away from diesel particularly in Europe was driven by EU legislation and especially Euro VI which will require very complex NOx emission reduction which adds significantly to vehicle cost. Also the likes of Toyota have a head start in meeting the very strict emissions (CO2) targets by using hybrid, don't forget that all manufacturers are obliged to reduce their overall CO2 emissions as part of EC law or face huge penalties. Probably why BMW is moving into hybrid territory and cheaper to licence it in from the experts than re-invent the wheel. Also why we see many small engine 3 cylinder turbos, which perform well during the emission test cycle (but less well in reality)

When you think that only 15 years ago, hybrids were a minority interest, they are now becoming mainstream with applications such as Auris and Yaris hybrid offering genuine economy at reasonable cost - although still a bit high for me! A medium size petrol car averaging around 60mpg has to be worth considering though, whether you're "green" or not, simply on running cost and reliability, being well proven, is not a problem. There is a resistance to change, particularly from petrol head journos who like to hear the aural soundtrack of conventional power, as the CVT noise is a boring drone by comparison.But I think we have to accept we'll all be driving them in 15 years. By then genuine EV power will probably have developed to offer proper range.

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - SteveLee

In order to think of a new way to tax wealth or production of any sort, the left decided that plant food is a "poison" which causes "climate change" (it does change that's why it's called "climate") and because diesels emit less plant food they have become the most prevalent vehicles (for BIK tax reasons) - the fact that they are pumping out billions of tonnes of real pollution clogging up our children's lungs seems to have bypassed the eco-loons. Diesels are a real problem, inner city pollution levels are now dangerous and there has been a massive explosion in lung/breathing-related issues with kids. The move to petrol hybrids is sensible - now if they could just ban the catalytic converter and let us get really lean with fuel mixtures we could be driving around in genuine 100mpg petrol/hybrid family cars - yes they would require particulate filters, but it's the cat that what's really holding petrol engine economy back as you're required to run a relatively rich mixture to keep the exhaust gas temps in range.

Toyota & Honda - Toyota and Honda have the last laugh - Oli rag

I think Honda and especially Toyota having launched models before other say less reliable manufacturers, helps the credibility of hybrids.

If the first models on the UK market had been riddled with problems ( and we all can think of manufacturers to whom this might have applied), the technlogy may have fallen at the first fence.

Hybrids having the highest retained value doesn't surprise me, although there is a possibility of some potential expensive failures with these cars, they seem fairly bulletproof.