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Wed 28 Aug 2013 02:38

Syrian Situation - Ben 10

There is to be a recall of Parliament this week to debate and possibly vote on action to take.

Why do WE have to raise our depleted military head above the parapit all the time. The use of chemical weapons and the deaths of countless civilians is wrong. But firing cruise missiles into Syria is going to attract "collateral" damage on the same scale.

It's always this country that wants to jump in with these things. Why not some other country for a change?

If no alternative country wants to "step up" and interfere in the same way as the USA and UK, then send in a UN peace keeping force first. If that fails, then there should be a UN mandate to send in a joint force.

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Wed 28 Aug 2013 12:55

Syrian Situation - Avant

Agree absolutely. It's nothing to do with us as an individual country: if interference is justified (as it might be if civilians are being killed for no good reason) it has to be done through the United Nations. If the UN can't agree, then there is clearly another side to the argument and the action shouldn't be taken.

Both Conservatives and Labour are too ready to assume that the USA is always in the right.

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Wed 28 Aug 2013 21:32

Syrian Situation - Leif

There have been many countries where people have been slaughtered and we stood by and did nothing. And we ignore the nasty friendly Arab states. Syria has been a nasty regime for decades. I can understand why Russia wants to side with Syria given that it has an important Russian military port. I'm not sure why America is so interested. Perhaps they see sorting out Syria as a way to get concessions from Israel, to solve the Israel Palestine problem. More likely they see Syria as a stepping stone towards dealing with Hesbollah and Iran.

I suspect politicians like the idea of doing some 'good' in the world, and Syria is Cameron's chance.

I doubt the UN will be of any use. Russia will never agree, and I doubt China will.

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Thu 29 Aug 2013 02:03

Syrian Situation - jamie745

Considering David Cameron has been the keenest for external powers to 'get involved' in Syria for the last three years, it is a bit rich of his Government to be cutting armed forces jobs here at home - even if we are pulling out of Afghanistan next year.

This is a very difficult one and it's not as simple as many would like to suggest. I can see Cameron's case and I don't see how we can condemn these acts for years yet do nothing about them. However the biggest decision for any Government is whether or not to use military force against another country. Unfortunately the days of Tony Blair has left the public incredibly sceptical about our involvement in such ventures.

Blair ordered our troops into battle 5 times in his first 6 years as Prime Minister, including an illegal invasion of Iraq and a pointless stay in Afghanistan which has outlasted both World Wars combined. I think Kosovo in 1998 set some sort of precident which we cannot back away from now.

I don't necessarily object to 'taking action' but I want to know what action? What are we actually going to do? What's the objective? Take out Assad? Smash up the Syrian Army? What?

These rebel groups have some highly unpleasant elements to them - we'd call them terrorists if they weren't opposing Assad - and leaving the country in the hands of a rebel militia could be even worse from our point of view. So really if we do anything we're signing up to assisting regime change and looking at a decade long stay in the middle east.

Great.

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Fri 30 Aug 2013 09:18

Syrian Situation - sandy56

The UK government has been lying to us for years and now they wonder why we don't believe them anymore.
Syria is in a mess of their own making, and it is up to the Syrians to fix it. Leave us out of it.
PS there is no oil( very little) in Syria so they cannot even use that stupid excuse.

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Fri 30 Aug 2013 15:02

Syrian Situation - jamie745

Well I don't quite know what to make of yesterdays developments. Usually a Prime Minister would only bother calling such a vote if they knew they could win, yet Cameron's become the first PM to lose such a vote since the mid 1800s.

Remember though that such votes are rare because the PM technically doesn't need Commons backing for War. David Cameron has the power to declare war himself yet now looks extremely unlikely to do so.

I don't know whether to call him weak or praise him for respecting the democratic process.

PS there is no oil( very little) in Syria so they cannot even use that stupid excuse.

Remind me when British Forces last invaded to seize oil stocks? Iraq has oil, but that's owned by the Iraqi's. It's not ours.

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Mon 2 Sep 2013 22:28

Syrian Situation - focussed

1. Someone gassed a lot of people with Sarin nerve gas in Syria.

2. Nobody knows FOR SURE who did it.

3. USA, UK and France are desperately foraging around looking for evidence that Assad did it, because that's what they all said initially and now they don't want to be proved wrong and have to backtrack.

4. UK parliament has said "no way David" and the other two are making noises off like "must ask congress/parliament for a vote on this" etc.

5. Hopefully an epidemic of severe cold feet will ensue and Assad will be left to sort out the toxic mix of rebel terrorists alone.

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Wed 4 Sep 2013 15:39

Syrian Situation - Happy Blue!

Why is the west getting involved?

This is an internal Syrian problem, being fed by non-west external powers (Russia & Iran on one side and Saudi and the Gulf States on the other). There is enough weaponry around there that any more is not necessary.

What we have learnt from Iraq, Afganistan, Egypt, Tunisia and Libya is that some Arabs may want democracy, but most think this equates to an Islamic based constitution and legislation - which cannot be democratic. A minority (without weapons) are more secular or Christian and want genuine democracy, whereas another minority want total Sharia law and going back to the Dark Ages.

In practice this means years of fighting without end, lack of development or rights for minorities and a humanitarian disaster; which the west will make worse. If Assad remains in power (and had Mubarrak and Saddam remained in power), secular Arabs and Christians would have been protected, as would women's right to independent lives.

Do nothing.

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Thu 5 Sep 2013 23:18

Syrian Situation - Leif

1. Someone gassed a lot of people with Sarin nerve gas in Syria.

2. Nobody knows FOR SURE who did it.

I am sure you can know with almost 100% certainty e.g. satellite photos taken at the time, and the method of delivery as determined by the UN inspectors. To deliver the weapons would require specific hardware e.g. trucks or tanks, and photos can prove who had what where and when. Chemical weapons are hard to deliver. How do you think the rebels delivered them?

3. USA, UK and France are desperately foraging around looking for evidence that Assad did it, because that's what they all said initially and now they don't want to be proved wrong and have to backtrack.

4. UK parliament has said "no way David" and the other two are making noises off like "must ask congress/parliament for a vote on this" etc.

As others have said, the memory of Blair and Campbell and their lies is strong.

5. Hopefully an epidemic of severe cold feet will ensue and Assad will be left to sort out the toxic mix of rebel terrorists alone.

Many are what we would call freedom fighters, some are extremist Islamic nutters. Assad is a vicious thug who has maintained power by terrorism.

Sadly either side 'winning' might be a disaster for a large part of the population.

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Sun 8 Sep 2013 22:43

Syrian Situation - jamie745

We shouldn't forget that something extremely heinous has happened in Syria. People have been gassed in the street. I understand the thoughts of those disgusted by the fact Britain 'seems to think its okay' considering the WW2 wasn't that long ago.

I'm pretty sure Britain doesn't think it's okay though. I don't think any sane person thinks it's okay, but we are asking questions of our Government in a way we didn't do - and shoud've done - with Afghanistan and Iraq. If it wasn't for those wars, British bombers would probably be on their way back from Syria by now because people would view it differently.

My problem is that I don't see how dropping 100 missiles on Damascus helps anybody. I also think it's pathetic of America to suggest involvement would be limited. You don't drop 100 bombs on the middle east and just walk away. That's crazy talk. 'Mission creep' lurks right round the corner.

My other problem is nobody has thought this out. What if we drop so many bombs that we take Assad out entirely? Who takes over then? The same terrorist organisation who knocked the towers down? What does America do then?

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Mon 9 Sep 2013 15:02

Syrian Situation - galileo

Today the news reported that Assad is to be asked nicely to hand over all his chemical weapons (presumably to the UN for disposal).

If everyone agrees that chemical weapons should not be used (and the US, UK and others destroyed all theirs years ago, with the exception of tear-gas) it seems a bit late to ask the question now instead of years ago when Syria was relatively stable.

It also seems like a triumph of hope over expectation to think that Assad would agree.

Edited by galileo on 09/09/2013 at 15:03

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Tue 10 Sep 2013 22:18

Syrian Situation - focussed

Battlefield delivery of chemical weapons is usually achieved by missile or shells, however, Sarin is extremely volatile and could have been delivered by the simple expedient of planting a small delayed-action IED containing Sarin.I also recall that there was an incident in Japan when terrorists used it in an underground train station.

In short, anybody that had got the stuff could have used it, government or rebels.

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Fri 13 Sep 2013 16:57

Syrian Situation - jamie745

I noted the BBC propaganda machine held Question Time in London and packed the audience full of every non-white non-athiest they could find. The media elite have been very keen to scream about how the country is wrong and the Westminster elite are right, that we should get on with bombing right this second.

However it seems there's a chance Assad might give these weapons up without anybody getting bombed. It's obviously a stretch but it's amusing watching John Kerry trying to pretend he's pulling the strings on this.

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Sun 15 Sep 2013 23:18

Syrian Situation - Leif

Battlefield delivery of chemical weapons is usually achieved by missile or shells, however, Sarin is extremely volatile and could have been delivered by the simple expedient of planting a small delayed-action IED containing Sarin.I also recall that there was an incident in Japan when terrorists used it in an underground train station.

In short, anybody that had got the stuff could have used it, government or rebels.

That is why you listen to what the UN weapons inspectors say. To kill that many people, you would need a lot of it. Chemical weapons are not easy to use, as they float around uncontrollably. What you are suggesting is rebels drive up, leave drums, drive off. I'm sure that would leave evidence e.g. empty fragmented drums in middle of attack area.

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Sun 15 Sep 2013 23:23

Syrian Situation - Leif

It looks like a victory for those soft peace loving Russkis. They have negotiated a deal whereby Syria releases control of its chemical weapons to the UN, and they can carry on slaughtering civilians with nice lovable conventional weapons. So all's well that ends well. Ah, how sweet.

Russia gets to look good, by being the good guy. Syria is happy as they have avoided an attack. America is happy as they have not had to spend money on an attack.

Oh yes, and Russia gets to keep its important naval base. Not that it bothers them, who needs regionally important naval bases eh? Nah, not those cuddly lovable Russian peaceniks.

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Fri 22 Nov 2013 18:54

Syrian Situation - sandy56

Syria is a sovereign state/ nation and has the right to do what it wants within its borders.
I don't see us/USA or the UN demanding that China/Russia/ Saudi Arabia/ changes its way of treating political opponents. They are much to powerful politically and militarily to take on.

The only reasons why the USA and the UN hasn't got involved is two fold- very little oil to worry about and
Syria has a modern air defence system that would make it VERY expensive to try and bomb them.
At the end of the day this is Syrians fighting Syrians- a civil war and the UK needs to keep out.

The fact that we are now rather toothless militarily is also an important factor.

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Fri 22 Nov 2013 19:10

Syrian Situation - Soichiro

Air defence system, pah.
I'd like to see it take on twenty tomahawk missiles.
Don't need planes to bomb a country.

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Mon 25 Nov 2013 21:25

Syrian Situation - sandy56

Correct you don't need planes but Cruise missiles are about 1 million US dollars each.
Even USA has to count them these days. That's why they developed the stealth plane so they could drop cheap bombs on them instead.

But those nasty clever Ruskies have figured out ways of finding them so that they are not stealthy anymore and the Chinese are getting frisky so maybe they will need them ( cruise missiles and stealth fighters) for a real war...

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Sat 23 Nov 2013 23:13

Syrian Situation - jamie745

I don't see us/USA or the UN demanding that China/Russia/ Saudi Arabia/ changes its way of treating political opponents.

Even the Saudi's don't gas people in the streets or round them up in sports halls before hosing them down with AK-47 fire.

very little oil to worry about

Syria exported quite a bit of petroleum until very recently, 90% of it to EU countries. I don't see your point though because people made this argument with Iraq, yet Britain doesn't own Iraq's oil. That belongs to the Iraqis.

You don't need to shoot anybody to get petroleum. You just need to pay for it.

Syria has a modern air defence system that would make it VERY expensive to try and bomb them.

The British a***nal of Storm Shadows would make pretty light work of Syrian military inferstructure to be honest.

At the end of the day this is Syrians fighting Syrians- a civil war and the UK needs to keep out.

It's the Syrian State fighting I believe four opposition groups. What I don't understand is why William Hague is still in post. He's been very keen to arm these rebels, despite the fact we know one of the rebel forces is an Al Queda militia group and we know another one has used suicide bombers, not against Assad, but against other civilians.

The fact that we are now rather toothless militarily is also an important factor.

I give it a year before Dave uses our run down forces as an excuse for merging with a European Union sponsored continental army.

It's coming.

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Sun 24 Nov 2013 11:22

Syrian Situation - gordonbennet

I give it a year before Dave uses our run down forces as an excuse for merging with a European Union sponsored continental army.

It's coming.

Handy too, when the UK finally goes bankrupt, for quashing the resultant unrest, may we yet see jackboots in the street of Britain.

It won't have to be our 'heroes' after all beating our own people to a pulp, paramilitary style thugs as seen on the streets of Greece when they dared to oppose the rulings and effective ownership of the fourth reich.

Remember when it happens people, you voted (turkey/Christmas like) for it and will do so again and again.

Edited by gordonbennet on 24/11/2013 at 11:23

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Sun 24 Nov 2013 16:04

Syrian Situation - jamie745

The UK went bankrupt 10 years ago, we just took a decade to notice.

We're not quite Greece, thankfully. Greece saw its democratically elected Prime Minister removed by Brussels because he dared to consider asking the public their opinion. Such horrors would never happen here because the chances of David Cameron ever asking us what we think.....

Remember when it happens people, you voted (turkey/Christmas like) for it and will do so again and again.

Slightly unfair. I think the public at large has woken up to what our career politicians have done to this country. In the 2010 election, the two big parties, Labour & Conservative only gained 65% of the popular vote. Compare that to 89% in 1970, when Edward Heath came to power & 96% in 1951, when Winston Churchill returned as Prime Minister.

The membership and voting base of both the Labour & Conservative parties have been falling for decades, especially since the rise of nationalist politics in Scotland and the formation of the SDP.

Edited by jamie745 on 24/11/2013 at 16:05

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Sun 24 Nov 2013 19:41

Syrian Situation - galileo

Gordonbennett, you point out exactly why some believe Governments of all parties are so keen on reducing private possession of firearms (just as Licensing was brought in here after they feared the populace might be inspired by the 1917 Russian Revolution).

Can't do with the masses throwing them out by force.

T-shirts are available in the USA which are printed " I love my country but fear my Government", I wonder how many one could sell here?

Edited by galileo on 24/11/2013 at 19:44

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Sun 24 Nov 2013 22:00

Syrian Situation - galileo

Now I think about it, the last military takeover here was by Oliver Cromwell and his Army.

Conspiracy theorists might ask why our Government is cutting down the Services to such minimal proportions.

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Mon 25 Nov 2013 10:30

Syrian Situation - Andrew-T

Conspiracy theorists might ask why our Government is cutting down the Services to such minimal proportions.

Jamie will have an answer then, as this website's leading conspiracy theorist? :-)

Reverting to topic: however painful we find the occurrences in Syria, we should remain onlookers unless we can see a certain way of making things better. The whole history of Afghanistan and other 'Arabic' nations shows that their society operates in a way that Western society finds it very hard to relate to. Leave well alone.

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Mon 25 Nov 2013 16:43

Syrian Situation - jamie745

Jamie will have an answer then, as this website's leading conspiracy theorist? :-)

A conspiracy theory isn't really necessary because the actual facts outdo any potential theory. The fact is ever since Valery Giscard d'Estaing drafted the European Constitution, it's been clear the European Union views itself as a state. It already has centralised power, legal personality, a flag, a currency, a monetary union and a shameful ripoff of Beethovens 9th Symphony as its anthem.

Thankfully the European Commission is still all at sea on foreign policy, but a united European armed forces is the intention. David Cameron is probably even keener on European integration than Tony Blair was, and is therefore quite relaxed about the British forces being run down. The way he or his successor will eventually sell it though, will be 'well we're so small and pathetic with no money, we have to join forces with the French...'

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Mon 25 Nov 2013 21:18

Syrian Situation - sandy56

Re the French forces- one of the reasons that the CON/LIB initially asked for the new UK carriers to be fitted with a catapult and arrestor system was so the French (and USA ) could use it.

The only reason they gave that up was BAE was going to charge them a huge amount of money (PROFIT) for the change. Blame our defence dept for not knowing how to write contracts (total idiots).

We do and have done a lot of combined operations with the French they still have an Army a Navy and an Air Force- although with their current financial position I wonder for how much longer.

At least with the French you know where you are -they will let you down- with our allies across the pond they try to pretend they wont shaft us but we all know they will..

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Mon 25 Nov 2013 21:33

Syrian Situation - sandy56

Syria's oil production is not significant in the big world. Even the USA is now a net exporter and even the Saudi's are going to be affected by that- note that the price of oil has dropped recently.

I doubt we can afford to send a bunch of very expensive missiles into Syria, especially without UN agreement and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
The new Russian air defence system is very effective and mobile and that makes it quite difficult to find then hit. I remember that the USA had about 3 weeks of constant air attacks on Iraq before the ground war started- I don't think we have anywhere near enough Storm Shadows. Maybe we should keep them for the next real war that directly affects UK interests?

Agreed the EU army navy and airforce is coming. Mind you we need it as we have very little left.

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