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I have a 97 R 106 Diesel, the radiator is now leaking. Is this a regular problem with 3 - 4 yr old cars, is this a 106 problem? Would it be difficult to change myself? Should I use Radweld?
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Yes. Regular problem with Peugeots generally.
HJ
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I will be embarking on a long journey to Switzerland shortl ... in the car, will the faily slight leak be OK if I keep an eye on it, or is the radiator likely to blow in the hot coinental sun shine (I am hoping for), on a 2000 mile rond trip.
OK so I've prity much answered my own question, I should really bit the bullet and have it fixed, but what would happe if I bodged it with a radiator filler type product, and then dumped the car early next year (not a nice thought), but heaven only knows how much the local garage or even worse, PUG dealer might try to do me for.
Just as an interesting aside, I resently had a part exhaust fitted for £50, which my PUG dealer had quoted me £130 for is this not scandlous
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Adam,
As HJ says, quite common. Often encouraged by not changing the coolant two yearly.
If it is a diesel don't risk a temp "magic" repair, in particular with a long trip in mind.
What do you expect it to cost?
£150 - £200???
David
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No it wouldn't be too difficult to change the radiator yourself
DON'T use any form of radweld - it will clog the rest of the cooling system
I wouldn't think twice about changing the radiator before a long continental trip
I for one certainally wouldn't want to risk and engine failure whilst miles away from home
Rgds
David
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Got to agree with the above its just not worth taking the risk especially if you are travelling abroad. How much would it cost you if it gave up the ghost on a journey with recovery and repairs????? Had a look in Europarts catalogue 106 1.4D £69.99 and 1.5D £66.99. for a radiator. Hardly exhorbitant. Not sure wether that includes VAT or not. Some fresh antifreeze ( Peugot's own brew - see previous threads ) All in all no more than £100 if you can DIY.
Europarts 0870 150 6506 . www.eurocarparts.com
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I've only had one Pug rad changed (out of ten cars) and the new rad cost ~£100 (for a 205 Dturbo). Just a thought - have it changed on the way through France, the rad may be cheaper. My limited experience of garages in small French towns is that they may easily do the job without 'booking in'. Had a fan-belt changed on a Maxi within 1 hour of asking - but that was about 20 years ago.
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Adam,
I have never replaced a radiator in my experience but have always gone to my local radiator repair man at Derby radiators.
Have stood and watched him remove the entire core leaving just the top and bottom pieces and then replace the entire tube section by soldering in.
They are then as good as new and at a big saving on buying a new one.
I believe the new ones you buy from a motor factor are as above and have been taken from dismantled cars at breakers and re-manufactured.
Alvin
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David,
I was interested in your comment regarding leakage (or corrosion) can be caused by not changing the coolant on a regular basis. I have heard this said several times on this site but always feel uneasy on this advice when it refers to corrosion.
I was a time served Plumber and heating engineer and the principles of corrosion in heating systems are the opposite to this principle.
The materials in a heating system are principally ferrous in industrial systems with non-ferrous in domestic systems, principally the pipework.
On a new system after testing and then flushing through the initial fill was the last time new water was introduced if possible.
After a period of time in service the water becomes as black as ink and is considered to be completely inert. In other words there was no oxygen and no lime which by now had detached itself from the water and no other chemicals left in the water.
This inert water could then be left for ever in the system with no corrosion taking place. In fact steel panel radiators (which you find in your home) only consist of mild steel abot 3mm thick will last indefinitely provided there is no new water intake which can occure through primary and secondary water mixing or bad design on installation. In later years the chemical companies introduced inhibitors such as Fernox for heating systems and make a fortune from them for doing the same thing as nature itself provides. I have drained old Church heating systems down to replace perhaps the boiler, where the water could have been in for 60 years without seeing a trace of corrosion.
The only golden rule was that one must never fit a galvanised fitting next to a brass or gunmetal one, as an electrolyte action is set up where the zinc is corroded in the galvanised one.
Maybe the difference in a car is that there are more dissimilar metals where the water passes over, I don't know!!! But it certainly is not the case in a low pressure heating system. Steam boilers aghhh, a different story again. In this case several chemicals have to be introduced but not usually to resist corrosion but for other reasons.
Alvin
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Alvin,
Reasoned thoughts, why should the behaviour of the systems be so different? I just know they are.
Ex B.Gas myself and spent my early days worrying about (but not actually doing) drain downs/three star maintenance contracts/Fernox and so on. Have installed/maintained all our C/H systems over the years and have understood what you say to be true.
I also know advice to change the coolant on cars two yearly is a cheap way to minimise problems of corrosion in the system. The purpose of anti-freeze these days is as much to protect from corrosion as to stop freezing.
In my old tractor (60/70s) manual anti-freeze is regarded as a winter treat, with advice to drain it down and fill with plain water in the summer. Of course that has an all iron engine.
Now with these alloy head modern engines I think there is a far greater chance of internal corrosion.
Some newer cars have a coolant that is claimed to last "for life". I treat this in the same way as 10,000 mile oil change intervals and the like......keep to the older, more frequent intervals.
I hope we will find a chemist on the forum who will tell us exactly why we have the different behaviour of these two wet systems (c/h & car coolant). In the meantime all I can offer is my understanding that anti-freeze contains chemicals to prevent ferrous corrosion, cavitation that can damage alloy components and to keep the coolant from turning acid.
David
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Most modern car radiators are made of aluminium with a plastic tank- these cannot be repaired, unlike the older all-metal rads which can be re-cored successfully by specialists.
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I have been a chemist in my time, but not a corrosion specialist. However I am pretty sure that the long-term corrosion in c/h systems is usually black (indicating Fe3O4) while the crud in a neglected radiator is 'rust'-brown, indicating Fe2O3). If I remember rightly the latter is worse news and suggests an ongoing rusting process. Black iron oxide is more of an end product.
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David,
yes your'e quite correct. What we need is a chemist or water treatment specialist to step forward and pronounce on this.
HJs theory also sounds good with the factor of having disimilar metals in close proximity. Incidentally when changing the anti-freeze I always use rain water taken from the garden (pvc) water butt through (pvc) rainwater down pipes) so as hopefully not to introduce all the chemicals introduced by the water board and also the metals picked up from the water main pipe system. Call me old fashioned as Dame Edna would say.
Alvin
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Alvin's last paragraph answers the question. It is the different types of metal in close proximity to each other (head, head gasket and block) connected by liquid that creates the corrosion battery. The reason for changing coolant regularly is not because it loses its anti-freeze properties, but because the corrosion inhibitors in it degrade.
HJ
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Maybe as the guilty pary who started this thread, I should add a little more spice to this discussion.
I have changed the anti freeze after 2 yrs and used the proper PUG stuff ( fat lot of good it did me).
As it happens I am a Chemist currently working in the automotive industry as a lab manager, although not in coolant systems, but filtration systems for diesel engines.
At another time in my life I nearly worked for Drax power station, and did a lot of study on power and cooling systems. These large power stations all run on re-heating of the same fluid which turns into steam drives the turbines and then is condensed back again in heat exchangers in those large cooling towers. The fluid then goes back to be heated again in the boilers, ie a completely enclosed system, which is made entirely of carbon steel. The way they keep this system corrosion free is by adding Amonia NH3, which is a Base, which acts as a reducing agent (rather than an oxidising agent), However this regularly needs to be re applied as acids react with the base to form salts.
I would imagine that the same is true of coolant.
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Adam
Great differences between a power station boiler and a car radiator. A power station boiler and turbine system is mostly carbon and alloy steel, but there is some copper based alloy or sometimes titanium in the condensors. It's a closed system in which the steel surfaces in the boiler and steam pipes are carefully conditioned before use, to get a stable oxide layer. The circulating fluid is demineralised water, chemical levels and oxygen levels are carefully controlled and water is blown down and/or chemical dosing is added to maintain a situation that correct chemical balance. Some imbalance occurs because there is inevitability some leakage of steam and water. Plus, there is a chemistry specialist looking after it.
And, no, the heat exchanges are not in the cooling towers, and are not exposed to the atmosphere.
A car radiator, which has a mix of materials, free oxygen, and a chemical cocktial to prevent freezing is a different environment. I think a heating system is a better analogy. Because of the metal mix and the availability of oxygen, it's necesary to replenish the active chemicals on a regular basis. If it was a power station this would be checked regularly, and regular changes/ chemical additions made. All the average car owner can do is change the coolant regularly and hope we get it right. One advantage is that the coolant can operate with an excess of chemicals - something you can't do in a power station because of the operating temperatures.
regards
John
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The difference is that the cars? cooling systems contain anti-freeze, usually ethylene glycol or propylene glycol. Over time, the hot glycols will degrade into acidic compounds in the presence of dissolved oxygen. The numerous hoses on cooling systems are probably permeable to oxygen.
With the right test equipment you could add oxygen scavengers and pH adjuster chemicals to the cooling system as you should do with heating systems as a matter of routine maintenance. If you haven?t got the right test kits or if you don?t know what corrosion inhibitors are in the anti-freeze mixture, you would be best advised to dump the solution and refill it every 2 or 3 years.
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AFM.
I think yours is probably the definitive answer on this subject.
Glycol degrading into acidic compounds had not entered my mind I must admit.
The word glycol always brings to my mind when I was a boy during the war and Spitfires receiving a hit in the cooling system. The pilots used to describe glycol suddenly appearing on the windscreen.
Well done AFM.
Alvin
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All the chemists reading this may like to look at www.problemsolved.com to get the relevant equations; follow the links for 'HVAC water'.
Alvin's on the right track in using rain water; it's the dissolved lime-scale in most tap water which you want to avoid introducing into the cooling system.
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I'M SURE IT'S QUITE A STOOPID QUESTION, BUT HERE GOES -
BASICALLY, i'M LOOKING TO BUY A PEUGOT 106 XRD (1.4d "L" REG) WHICH I'VE SEEN RECENTLY AND WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT TO LOOK OUT WHEN I'M CHECKING IT OUT (MUCH TO THE DISGUST OF THE GARAGE OWNER WHO'S TRYING TO FLOG IT!)
"IT LOOKS A LOVELY COLOUR AND VERY CLEAN" BUT OTHER THAN THAT I'M NOT REALLY SURE WHAT TO LOOK OUT FOR.
SO THE DUMB QUESTION GOES-
HOW CAN I TELL IF THE RADIATORS LEAKING WHEN IM CHECKING IT OVER AND WHAT OTHER BITS SHOULD I LOOK OUT FOR?
HOPE YOU CAN HELP...
LUCY
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