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Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - alirio1

I received 2 NIP's for speeding offences committed on the same day,May 31st,recorded by the same camera on the Cheshire/Derbyshire border.The first I knew of this was a reminder I received about 5 weeks after the offences,I hadn't actually received any initial notification.I wrote to Cheshire Constabulary to explain this and was then sent the NIP's allegedly sent to me originally.As my husband and daughter,as well as myself had been driving the car in the area on the day in question,I wrote again to ask that the photographic evidence be sent to me.These photos duly arrived but show only the number plates,it is clearly not possible to identify the driver from them.We were on a bird-watching outing that day so were constantly stopping the car and getting out to look at birds,so the 3 of us would each be driving at different times,almost randomly.I wrote again to explain that there were 3 possible drivers at the time of each of the offences,and last week both my husband and daughter received letters but they are as unsure as myself as to who was driving at the times in question.Obviously there is photographic evidence that offences have been committed,but who should accept culpability? My husband is prepared to take the blame,he has 40 years driving experience with no speeding convictions at all. I myself have a 25 year unblemished record,while my daughter has 7 years experience with one speeding conviction.I am now being threatened under Section 172 and don't know what to do.Should I accept my husband's offer to take the blame,as one of us would appear to have to accept it? I f not,what should I do? Help!!!

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - RT

The Pepipoo website will give more detailed advise but after the Hune case you need to be very careful about perjury - it's just as much to take the blame if you're not sure as naming the wrong person !

It's not sensible but that's the law.

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - Andrew-T

From what you say it seems that no-one is disputing the offence, or has any evidence to prove who was driving, so take the points or pay the fine or go on the course. Not worth complicating things unnecessarily.

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - Andrew-T

(duplicated).

Edited by Andrew-T on 23/08/2013 at 15:02

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - Palcouk

The law doesnt allow for such circumstances; If you tell the truth that you do not know who was driving at the time, the registered keeper will receive a summons for failing to disclose, you would then need to attend court (together with your wife & daughter) and offer your explanations. Haveing dated photographic evidence, or diaries, of your bird watching for the day would help. Its then upto the magistrate as to how it is dealt with.

Similar circumstances to yours have resulted in no penalties been imposed

Alternatively someone puts there hands up

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - alirio1

Court would be risky,possibly 6 points each offence and a consequent ban.My husband got his NIP on Aug 17,so we've got nearly 4 weeks to think it over.Obviously someone putting their hand up would be safest.

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - FP

"...possibly 6 points each offence and a consequent ban."

Technically, yes. But the normal punishment for a speeding offence is 3 to 6 penalty points, depending on how much over the speed limit the driver was and any other circumstances of the offence; then there is mitigation, which would include the driver's past record.

It's a difficult one. Perhaps one of you should just carry the can, purely to avoid the minefield you would be in otherwise?

P.S. www.pepipoo.com has a section on speeding - you may like to ask for advice there.

Edited by FP on 23/08/2013 at 11:09

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - Cris_on_the_gas

perhaps you should cough to one each and ask if you can have a speed awareness course instead of the points.

Never know it might save your life or someone elses in future

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - timblackprince

I have just been given 6 points and a £600 fine for not remembering who was driving my car. You may well see adverts by lawyers saying they get a huge percentage of section 172 cases dropped. Do not belive these claims. I have paid a heavy price as it is very obvious in court that you will not be believed. Simple as that. You will be regarded as an "enemy of the State" and as such you will be punished. The Police cannot and will not, allow a poor recollection of events as a reason not to pursue you. You will be convicted despite the fact their is NO evidence against you. Anyone out there thinking of taking on the system as a point of principle, don't. You live in a society where the Police will hound generally law abiding people for the most minor motoring infringements and they will be backed up by the courts. I re-iterate, even with NO evidence you will be convicted.

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - Dwight Van Driver

Don't blame the 'State'.

Section 172 carried a perfectly legitimate defence which in true Brit fashion was abused so much that the Bench no longer believe claims on it.

As always honesty is the best policy.

dvd

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - concrete

There is an old saying from our American cousins: "You can't fight City Hall and win".

However, as DVD put it, honesty is the best policy. If you are absolutely convinced you all cannot swear as to who was driving when the offence occured, then go to court and say so. Your driving records and presumably lack of criminal records should demonstrate to the magistrate that you are a very respecable and law abiding family who find themselves in a genuine dilema. It could work. The court will have to decide who to blame for the offence and it will probably be the main driver of the vehicle. My niece is a magistrate, and although hypothetical cases are anathama to her, she did say she would be persuaded by the presence of the family in court and their general demeanour. If the case was put sympathetically then she would incline to dismisal or possibly the normal £60 fine for the main driver with minimum court costs of about £100 and discharge the other two. You are of course relying on the justice system to deliver just that, along with all the time and effort and possibly a solicitor. Perhaps discretion is the better part of valour and just have one of you take the hit, draw a line under this and move on. The choice is yours. Best of luck with your deliberations and please let us all know what transpires. Concrete

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - timblackprince

I do blame the "State". I fail to see how the Bench can make arbitrary decisions with NO evidence. Mr DVD you may be as pure as the driven snow but I hope you come up against the State at some point and see how far honesty gets you. The Bench might simply not believe you!

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - galileo

You were advised to admit to one each: that would probably have meant 3 points each and a lesser total in fines, or you may have been able to take the awareness course, no points and about £85 - 90 cost each.

Your choice was not to take that advice.

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - wrangler_rover

Honesty is the best poilcy?

It looks like the original poster told the truth in that they couldn't remember who was driving and was hit with the full force of the law.

One problem seems to be that the police and judiciary get so used to dealing with the dregs of our society that eventually, they treat everybody as such, even respectable law abiding citizens.

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - Ordovices

Do law abiding citizens actually get NIPs.

What is the cut off for defining the dregs of society, perhaps a list of qualifications would help me to work out where I belong?

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - wrangler_rover

Yes, "Law abiding citizens" do get caught doing things like inadvertantly exceeding the speed limit, exceeding 30 mph is easily done.

For dregs, read habitual and career criminals who are repeatedly in court, some of the characters seen on the likes of "Police Camera Action."

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - RT

Yes, "Law abiding citizens" do get caught doing things like inadvertantly exceeding the speed limit, exceeding 30 mph is easily done.

However easy it is to speed, it's never "inadvertant" more like due to lack of attention or judgement - but it's breaking the law nevertheless so can never done by "law-abiding citizens".

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - wrangler_rover

Let he who is blameless (or in this case who has never crept above the speed limit inadvertantly, or due to lack of attention or an error of judgement) cast the first stone!

My definition of "Law abiding citizens" people who don't go out to intentionally break the law but may transgress due to an error of judgement or lack of attention to the speed limit. As opposed to non law abiding citizens who choose to go out and break the law such as burglars, car thieves, shoplifters etc.

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - RT

Let he who is blameless (or in this case who has never crept above the speed limit inadvertantly, or due to lack of attention or an error of judgement) cast the first stone!

My definition of "Law abiding citizens" people who don't go out to intentionally break the law but may transgress due to an error of judgement or lack of attention to the speed limit. As opposed to non law abiding citizens who choose to go out and break the law such as burglars, car thieves, shoplifters etc.

I'm certainly not blameless, having failed to abide by speeding laws a few times - but I take my "punishment" - what you're trying to do is to de-criminalise speeding - you can't!

There's a difference between murderers and burglars just as there are between burglars and speeders - but none of them are "law abiding".

Edited by RT on 20/10/2013 at 16:10

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - Armitage Shanks {p}

Semantics!

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - RT

Semantics!

You can't just redefine the meaning of "law-abiding citizen" to suit the varying standards of acceptable behaviour.

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - kerbed enthusiasm

Circumstances, place, time and society determine acceptable behaviours. The application of a binary notion of law abiding and not law abiding to describe behaviour which should be considered within the above parameters is unhelpful. Those who transgress a speed limit through circumstance are not judged as 'law breakers' by society, nor do the courts treat such perpetrators as criminals. Your argument, as has been suggested, relies on semantics.

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - Ordovices

If binary doesn't work, then who will categorise which laws are "real" laws and which aren't "really laws".

I'm sure that many people caught speeding don't regard it as a breaking the law, there again Anders Breivik didn't regard what he did as breaking the law.

I would have thought that a simple acid test would be:

Can I be prosecuted for what I have done?

Yes - Law breaker. No - Law abiding citizen.

You could then add your mitigation for excessive speed, can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'm sure there must be hundreds of valid reasons.

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - concrete

You could then add your mitigation for excessive speed, can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'm sure there must be hundreds of valid reasons.

The best one I heard was this:

Policeman pulls over man for speeding and says to the man

"It's the end of my shift, I have had a good day, so if you can give me the best reason I have ever heard for speeding, I will let you go"

The motorist says " Some years ago my wife ran off with a policeman. I though you might be bringing her back!"

The Policeman said " Thank you sir, have a nice day"

I wonder what the OP has decided to do. Any news yet??

Cheers Concrete

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - Ordovices

For dregs, read habitual and career criminals who are repeatedly in court, some of the characters seen on the likes of "Police Camera Action."

Does that include habitual speeders?

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - wrangler_rover

ome might say that habitual speeders were: Unlucky / careless / unable to learn from past mistakes

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - galileo

ome might say that habitual speeders were: Unlucky / careless / unable to learn from past mistakes

Certainly this applies to those repeatedly caught offending.

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - StephenDresty

So what are the other alternatives of it? May it favorably works for them...Find functiosn of body kit

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - FP

Well, hello to you too, Stephen.

Toyota Yaris - Speeding Section 172 - alastairq

re-exceeding the speed limit?

How's about folk who simply just..do not care?

To whom ignoring the speed limit is simply a matter of what is convenient, or inconvenient, for them at the time?

Flouting the Law [which we all vote for, one way or another...and can change by similar means if we so wish....but far too many cannot be bothered?}]....in this respect is a purely selfish act.

We do it for our own convenience......because it suits us to ignore the Law.

However, once brought to account, we endlessly seek the most feeble excuses to justify our behaviour.

Fact is, most simply do not care when ignoring the rules. They do not care what effect their law-flouting has on other road users, or the quality of life of others, who may live nearby?

And, if the argument that [in this instance] unintentionally exceeding the posted limit should not leave us vilified, what about the notion of failing in our duties as drivers of motor vehicles, to exercise proper care and attention to the task we have been given a licence for?

Or, as I suspected years ago, are our licences now universally seen as mere personal travel passes?