Can I be a revolutionary? - Happy Blue!

SWMBO's car was hit by a bus last week, when she was stationary. For a variety of reasons we ended up for a temporary period with two courtesy cars: a Fiat 500 1.2 petrol manual and a BMW 318d auto. Neither of us like either car!

Both of us expected to find the Fiat cute, a little like a small puppy nipping here and there and generally sparky. So we anticpated a revvy engine, short quick gearchange, quick reactions to the steering and a slightly nervous suspension. What we got was a huge steering wheel, dull reactions to steering and accelorator inputs and a fairly adequate ride at best. I had hoped for a grown up sort of Citroen C1 and I got instead a cut down 1970s Mercedes.

The BMW is very interesting. I like the short precise throws of the gearlever (i know its auto!), the short arc for pulling up the handbrake and the small steering wheel. The dials are clear and there is a great deal of power if you bury your foot in the carpet....But I just dont like it.

Sure the steering is precise, but I prefer the steering in my S-Max, which seem less filled with novocaine, the engine is gruff at low speed which I thought odd and even though its a saloon, i do not like the low driving position which gives me a poor view of the outside world. The heated seats work well though!

Most diappointing is the dashboard. Both the BMW and the Fiat have narrow LCD screens with limited information and you have to press too many buttons too often to get to the info you want. Neither are intuitive, with too many functions buried in hard find menus that take an age to drill down.

Compared to our S-Max and Juke, both with decent size touch screens in the centre of the dash, capable of dealing with most things within a couple of pushes so you can do things like pair up a phone at the trafic lights, rather than having to sit in the car park for five minutes.

The BMW may drive well once you have set up everything that you want, but unless I was driving over the Snake Pass each day it advantages are lost on me for 99% of the driving that I do and I suspect for most other people as well.

For a cute citycar, the Fiat is a triumph on style over substance. For half the price the Citren C1 does a similar job with more involvement from the driver.

SWMBO is so underwhelmed that despite finding my S-max too big and heavy, she has taken it over the BMW (the Fiat has gone back) and I am now climbing out of the black hole of a Bavarian drivers seat rather than elegantly steeping out of a Euro MPV.

We want our Juke back!

Can I be a revolutionary? - unthrottled

Lifeless/artificial steering seems to a stubborn problem with electric power steering systems. I wish there was still a manual steering option. When my dad drover trucks in the 60s and 70s, he was expected to spin the wheel of his artics without assistance. Do we really need mechanical assistance to manoeuvre a small car?

...and then go the gym to carry out repetitive exercises to get rid of the flab caused by a sendentary lifestyle!

Save money on power steering systems. Save money on gym membership. Win win.

Can I be a revolutionary? - veryoldbear

Yesterday me old Saab 95 estate shed its crankshaft pulley while I was making a three-point turn, thus reminding me how much hard work it is to go back to manual steering ... good exercise I suppose !

Can I be a revolutionary? - RT

Back in the '80/90s we had a Cavalier SRi and a Nova, both unassisted, but the difference in steering effort was huge - I can understand why the Cavalier/Vectra/Insignia got power steering but not the Nova/Corsa.

Can I be a revolutionary? - craig-pd130

Lifeless/artificial steering seems to a stubborn problem with electric power steering systems. I wish there was still a manual steering option.

True, the steering in our Corsa D petrol is awful, it's like turning the steering wheel on the old Atari 'Pole Position' arcade game.

The Mark 1 Mondeo had lovely steering feel, gave great feedback and weighting when you were pressing on. Having driven a couple of BMWs (mid-90s / early 2000s 3 and 5 series), they're OK but haven't deeply impressed me. On the 3 series I was probably too busy adjusting to the offset pedals, which always struck me as a glaring flaw.

Can I be a revolutionary? - Andrew-T

Lifeless/artificial steering seems to a stubborn problem with electric power steering systems. Do we really need mechanical assistance to manoeuvre a small car?

Save money on power steering systems. Save money on gym membership. Win win.

When I traded my 306 diesel for a 207 diesel my immediate reaction to the steering was that the 306 had been more sensitive, but after 4 years I am used to it and don't find it an irritant. The newer car has electric instead of pump assistance, and I am sure that helps fuel consumption as it only uses power when steering is actually needed.

But there aren't many modern cars which buyers would choose without PAS because so many cars now have fat low-profile tyres. Older drivers especially wouldn't consider such a car. I own two 205s, one without PAS - the difference is very noticeable.

Can I be a revolutionary? - gordonbennet

Motoring writer fashion of the minute and badge kudos not top priroties then HB?

You're in good company then for i suspect many on these independent motoring forums are equally independently minded and quite happy to admit to preferring cars the archtypical badge impressed motoring hacks would deride, indeed i suspect many of us would be terribly disappointed to find our choices were endorsed by the type.

Can I be a revolutionary? - Happy Blue!

I can't remember the last time I bought a car because the press said it was good. The S-Max has a great write up, but I bought it after a two week rental during which I decided it was the car for me. The fact that it also has a great write up is a bonus. Similarly we bought the Juke after a rental. Given that we have rented about 30 different cars over the last decade, it is surprising that we have only found two cars that we felt good enough for us to consider owning long term. There is no substitute for a real long term test drive. My father's Sirion was chosen in a similar fashion.

So I fell out with 'brands' a long time ago when I realised that there were products available for lower prices that suited me better.

As I have before on this site. I can afford to buy most cars on the market, but I choose to buy something that suits my needs and is not unnecessarily expensive without being too cheapskate. My requirements now are for a seven seater. I could buy some fancy SUV (and indeed had an XC90 for three months) but realised very quickly that the S-Max offered superior driver appeal, improved economy and no loss of amenity for the family for far less money.

In fact I don't know what I would replace my car with when the time came to downsize. What I do know is that a Fiat 500 and a BMW 3 series are off the list!

Can I be a revolutionary? - jc2

Many cars are a "triumph of form over function"-they are cars people want to be seen in-almost a fashion statement.I know someone who owned a Mini(BMW not BL).He now owns a Vauxhall and finds it far superior!

Can I be a revolutionary? - daveyjp
Our Aygo was a better drive round town than the 1.2 i20 we now have. The i20 is far better in many more departments, but a revvy three cylinder and flexible gearbox can't be beaten when all you do is 20-30mph most of the day.

I suspect the 500 is similar to the i20.

Edited by daveyjp on 25/06/2013 at 20:09

Can I be a revolutionary? - Bobbin Threadbare

A former colleague of mine bought a Fiat 500 - he likes cars with a lot of driving enjoyment normally. He flogged it very quickly and bought a 3-series M-sport.

Can I be a revolutionary? - drd63

Many cars are a "triumph of form over function"-they are cars people want to be seen in-almost a fashion statement.I know someone who owned a Mini(BMW not BL).He now owns a Vauxhall and finds it far superior!

Why wouldn't you buy a car as fashion statement? We pay a lot of money for them and want to look back or get in and think that looks fantastic. Now, just buying a brand because of image, that shows a gross lack of imagination.

Can I be a revolutionary? - Avant

"Why wouldn't you buy a car as fashion statement? We pay a lot of money for them and want to look back or get in and think that looks fantastic."

No reasion why not, if that's what you want. Personally - precisely because I'm paying a lot of money - I want it to be good to drive.

Can I be a revolutionary? - Andrew-T

We ... want to look back or get in and think that looks fantastic. Now, just buying a brand because of image, that shows a gross lack of imagination.

But most of them don't - they look just about the same. Hence the mindless rush to obese versions of otherwise normal cars which someone started a few years back, and all the makers had to join in.

Can I be a revolutionary? - Avant

'Form over function' indeed. I think there are a lot of people who aren't worshippers at the altar of BMW. Very good cars, but they're there to be driven hard and fast, ideally on twisty B-roads as road testers seem to do when making their judgements.

There are lots of us like me and, I believe, Happy Blue, who are professionals who enjoy cars and motoring, like to get a move on but need a car to do an everyday job as well as look good and perform well in extreme situations. The S-Max and Juke score well here, as does my Octavia.

I'll keep the said Octavia vRS at least till early next year, but in case I go for a replacement that has a long waiting list, it's test driving and shortlisting time now. Part of the test is getting back into the Skoda afterwards and seeing if I feel underwhelmed and miss the test-driven car.

BMW 330d Touring - sorry, but no. It just wasn't superior enough for the extra £15,000. And try as I might I just couldn't get comfortable. Audi Q3 - not really, although I did like the high driving position. Ford C-Max - not as high up as I expected, and, typically of a big Ford dealer, the demonstrator wasn't the model I wanted. The 1.0 Ecoboost would be great in a Fiesta.....

Golf GTI - ah, that was different. Was it the slightly higher bhp (217) in the new Golf, was it the direct steering, was it because it was a manual rather than DSG like mine.... It produced a terrific wallop of acceleration when wanted, yet was a doddle to drive gently as one has to for 90 % of the time.

Next stop - try the new Octavia vRS when it comes out next month.

But going back to the point - I thnk there are far more fellow-travellers with Happy Blue and me than the motoring press (with the honourable exception of HJ, who tells what he finds) would have you believe.

Can I be a revolutionary? - Andrew-T

There are lots of us who are professionals and like to get a move on but need a car to do an everyday job as well as look good and perform well in extreme situations. The S-Max and Juke score well here, as does my Octavia.

It may perform well, but I can't accept that a Juke 'looks good'. I assumed the name was a hybrid of Joke and Puke ...

Can I be a revolutionary? - madf

It may perform well, but I can't accept that a Juke 'looks good'. I assumed the name was a hybrid of Joke and Puke ...

Agreed.

In my view the Juke is a moving and overwhelming testament to the lack of taste, finesse and good sense of the owner. The owner really is a styling nihilist.

A triumph of styling over function AND looks.

Can I be a revolutionary? - RT
But going back to the point - I thnk there are far more fellow-travellers with Happy Blue and me than the motoring press (with the honourable exception of HJ, who tells what he finds) would have you believe.

I'm certainly with you - and possibly even more obsessive about function over style - and like everyone, except billionaires and motoring journalists, my car has to be a compromise as I can't afford one car for each sort of occassion.

At a mundane level, I could never work out why the motoring press rated Fords as "drivers" cars but not Vauxhalls when both were workhorses, intended as such by their makers and bought as such by their owners - and if you really wanted a "drivers" car you wouldn't be considering either !

Edited by RT on 26/06/2013 at 08:53

Can I be a revolutionary? - Happy Blue!

Having spent a few more days in the BMW I can say that I really like one thing about it - the performance is superb; bury your foot and wow it just goes.

However the relationship between the auto box and engine at lower speeds is poor, the wrong gear is frequently selected when tootling along with the traffic (either too high or too low) and the need to press the brake pedal to move between Neutral and Drive is more than irritating. I like to move the selector into N at lights and slip it into D when they go amber. If I have to use the detent button OK, but the brake pedal as well???

Anyway, it is going today as we are getting a smaller car which SWMBO will drive and I can get my beloved S-Max back. Its not that hot out there, but with leather, I miss my ventilated seats.

I do think Fords are drivers cars more than Vuaxhalls. Richard Parry Jones developed the suspension for the first Focus and every Ford since then has had just very nice steering and handling.

Can I be a revolutionary? - Happy Blue!

Oh No!

They have replaced the BMW with a BMW 118d manual. Just sitting inside it makes me think style over substance. Can't get comfortable and SWMBO will hate it so I won't be getting the S-Max back. Drat...

Can I be a revolutionary? - 1litregolfeater

I quite fancied a Fiat 500 so I won't get one now. My son's Corsa C is nice to drive but you do have to put some air in the tyres! The more the better.

Can I be a revolutionary? - Happy Blue!

Have now driven the accursed 118d. Ugly interior with hard and cheap plastics making the interior of a 20 year old Hyundai a more pleasant place to sit. Stupid dials with the steering wheel boss so large that you can eitehr see the top of the instrument binnacle or the bottom, but not both at the same time without craning your neck.

For a BMW with fancy alloy wheels you think they might have included reversing sensors. instant economy guage and climate control as well. I have to manually adjust the fan last night - haven't done that for a few years!

Edited by Happy Blue! on 27/06/2013 at 11:25

Can I be a revolutionary? - RT

Ugly interior with hard and cheap plastics making the interior of a 20 year old Hyundai a more pleasant place to sit.

That has to be the ultimate insult to any car!

I'm a great fan of the way Hyundai have gradually improved to catch the rest up but 20 years ago they were grim.

Can I be a revolutionary? - Happy Blue!

I have just reminded myself of one of the members of the Back Room from a few years ago who retired. He bought a Mitsubishi Lancer as a car that simply did what he wanted without any unnecesary distractions.

Anyone who wants a small hatchback with reasonable speed and economy has got to be able to find a better car for less money that the BMW. I can think of no USP that would make me want to buy that 118d.

Can I be a revolutionary? - RT

The Mitsubishi Lancer may be nothing outstanding - but it forms an excellent basis for the Evo !

Can I be a revolutionary? - Happy Blue!

Yes and a BMW 1M is no doubt a great speed merchant, but as a basic car there are far better. At the time, the Lancer was a perfect choice for the criteria of the purchaser. I can think of no criteria that would force me into a 118d.

Can I be a revolutionary? - unthrottled

Anyone that thinks that a small driver's car needs reversing sensors probably doesn't understand what the car is about. I'm not the biggest fan of the 3 series lite but panning it because the fan needs manual adjustment is churlish.

I'd rather walk than buy an S-Max, but I wouldn't deny that it is a very well designed and constructed vehicle.

Can I be a revolutionary? - madf

Anyone that thinks that a small driver's car needs reversing sensors probably doesn't understand what the car is about.

Anyone who makes that statement has never reversed into a dark garage crowded with lots of items like mowers, wheelbarrows and low slung handles not visible when reversing.

Can I be a revolutionary? - unthrottled

Anyone who makes that statement has never reversed into a dark garage crowded with lots of items like mowers, wheelbarrows and low slung handles not visible when reversing.

Yes I have. There are two types of drivers. Those that can drive, and those that need a machine to do the job for them but won't admit as much. I'm lousy at parallel parking. My shortcoming-not that of the car for not being to manoeuvre itself.

Can I be a revolutionary? - madf

Anyone who makes that statement has never reversed into a dark garage crowded with lots of items like mowers, wheelbarrows and low slung handles not visible when reversing.

Yes I have. There are two types of drivers. Those that can drive, and those that need a machine to do the job for them but won't admit as much. I'm lousy at parallel parking. My shortcoming-not that of the car for not being to manoeuvre itself.

OK I admit it.

I think driver aids are great. They make reversing much simpler.

No doubt you will tell me that synvromesh is a sriver aid and good drivers don't need it. Having driven a noin syncomesh car, I assure you it is essential.

And a modern auto is far easier and less tiring to drive in traffic than any auto.

And power steering makes aprking easy.

Guess I 'm a wimp... :-)

Can I be a revolutionary? - unthrottled

No doubt you will tell me that synvromesh is a sriver aid and good drivers don't need it. Having driven a noin syncomesh car, I assure you it is essential.

You can't float gear changes with synchronised transmissions. So you need a clutch depression for every gear change. Like a lot of labour saving devioces, it generates more work.

Can I be a revolutionary? - Bobbin Threadbare

I have just reminded myself of one of the members of the Back Room from a few years ago who retired. He bought a Mitsubishi Lancer as a car that simply did what he wanted without any unnecesary distractions.

I had one of those for work once - it was tinny and plasticky and the rain sounded extra loud bouncing on the roof.

Can I be a revolutionary? - sandy56

Just got my first auto car after a looooong time with manuals.

I must admit I think its great. Enough power - 2L diesel -and a great kick down for when you want it.

Can I be a revolutionary? - Ed V

HJ's favourite - ever - is the current BMW 320 I thought?