|
Next thing someone will claim it's no longer necessary to strain new oil through a stocking before putting it in an engine.
|
|
Got a great idea to help John F save even more money. Since he is happy leaving the oil in his engine for 13 years why should he buy it new. I drain mine every year, only do 7000 miles. £30 new but would accept £15. Fully synthetic 5w 30. Plenty behind the garage, doing a dump it site run soon,
|
I seem to remember(age!) one of the major manufacturers in the 80's, or maybe 90's attempting to build sealed for life engines- life being something like 75,000 miles - with no oil or filter changes, though top-ups were allowed. Tests were done and there were rumourrs that they lasted OK but the dealers, naturally resisted.
From the little that was available at the time I believe that special long life oils were developed for this purpose, perhaps they were the precursors to today's synthetics?
I also remember that they were fitted with bigger oil filters.
Does anybody else recall anything?
|
I seem to remember(age!) one of the major manufacturers in the 80's, or maybe 90's attempting to build sealed for life engines- life being something like 75,000 miles - with no oil or filter changes, though top-ups were allowed. Tests were done and there were rumourrs that they lasted OK but the dealers, naturally resisted. From the little that was available at the time I believe that special long life oils were developed for this purpose, perhaps they were the precursors to today's synthetics? I also remember that they were fitted with bigger oil filters. Does anybody else recall anything?
Back in 2000, while I was buying a new Astra I can recall the salesman extolling the virtues of the Cadillac V8 they also had for sale which needed no attention at all in the first 100,000 miles - I think it was the North Star engine but I didn't pay full attention.
|
|
|
|
This is from The Engineer (2002):
Stuttgart's recent Engine Expo saw the launch of a sensor that brings us one step closer to the possibility of a sealed-for-life car engine.
Stuttgart's recent Engine Expo saw the launch of a sensor that brings us one step closer to the possibility of a sealed-for-life car engine.
Delphi claims that its Intellek Oil Condition Sensor will extend oil useful life up to 30,000 Km, and could, by the middle of the next decade, be at the heart of a lubrication system that will not require a complete oil change for the normal life of the engine.
While existing techniques estimate when oil change is required by predicting oil condition from factors like the vehicle drive cycle, oil temperatures, number of cold starts and, in some systems, a measurement of the oil dielectric, Delphi's sensor is said to be the first that measures oil properties directly.
Having studied different aspects of oil degradation, Delphi concluded that acidity, oxidation, viscosity and contamination are the key variables. These factors determine the conductivity of the oil, a trace of which shows excellent correlation against oil condition as measured using industry-standard techniques.
The sensor is comprised of three concentric stainless steel tubes and a temperature probe. The conductivity of the oil is established by applying a low-frequency alternating potential and the oil level is calculated through an impedance measurement.
Calculations are performed by a built-in microprocessor that allows the unit to deliver processed information rather than raw data. It also gives a near 'plug-and-play' capability, requiring only a link to the vehicle's powertrain databus and integration with the driver information system.
The sensor is configured to measure oil temperature, saving the cost of an additional sensor. This is expected to be increasingly useful due to the affect of this parameter on hydraulically controlled systems such as cam phasing and cylinder deactivation. The ability to measure oil level also allows elimination of the dipstick.
Delphi says that the gasoline version of the Sensor could be in volume production for the 2004-5 model year. Further developments are already under way to increase the range of parameters measured.
Edited by Doc on 18/04/2013 at 10:54
|
Looks interesting. I suppose one of the problems with such a device is setting it up. Unless one used a single type of specified oil I would think that it would need to be reset with some 'as new data' every time a different type/make of oil was used, otherwise change/ alarm points could be incorrect. However this might just involve a simple 'menu' selection using the dashboard screen.
On the other hand changing the oil regularly may be more dependable!
|
I suppose one of the problems with such a device is setting it up. Unless one used a single type of specified oil I would think that it would need to be reset with some 'as new data' every time a different type/make of oil was used, otherwise change/ alarm points could be incorrect.
And that is why VAG specify a particular specification oil (504/507) for variable services, if you top up with non-compliant oil (up to a litre of select alternative specs is allowed) - then the change in measured oil characteristic is picked up by their oil quaity sensor and you lose the extended mileage to the next service.
I expect its similar for BMW and other manufacturers that support long life service regimes.
|
Not sure the Vag sensor is that good. I've got my A3 on 'variable' service but change the oil at around half the usual 18,000 miles. The Oil change mileage stays the same after The oil is replaced, which shouldn't be the case if the oil is truly 'monitored'.
I believe that the 'sensor' is an computer algorithm based on the number of engine starts, oil temperature profiles, plus perhaps number of gear changes etc. I don't believe that there is anything that sits in the oil, but I'm happy t o be proved wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Got a great idea to help John F save even more money. Since he is happy leaving the oil in his engine for 13 years why should he buy it new. I drain mine every year, only do 7000 miles. £30 new but would accept £15. Fully synthetic 5w 30. Plenty behind the garage, doing a dump it site run soon,
He never ever said he left his oil in 13 years, obviously thunderbird is already suffering from selective memory loss.
However I am considering the weight of opinion here, so I ask, should I dump those 7x5 -litre cans of dexos2 full synthetic oil I have in my garage? After all, a couple of those cans are nearly 2 years old and I think the rest will have been over 6 months since their "fill date" by the time I use them. Those old ones must have turned to sludge and gunk by now......
|
He never ever said he left his oil in 13 years, obviously thunderbird is already suffering from selective memory loss.
Please check your facts before you insult me.
John F said on Tuesday 16 April at 10.14 "I drained the 13yr old oil from the 33yr old 66,600m TR7 engine yesterday evening"
Unless I am mistaken that clearly indicates the oil was 13 years old.
So Brum, I expect you to come back and apologise, but I don't expect you will since you clearly are not the the type who will honestly accept he has made a mistake.
|
|
Sorry thunderbird, apologies. My mistake for not picking that up. Old age and all that.....
However from original post by John F
I changed the oil and filter in my TR7 in 1989 [51,000m], 1993 [56,000] 1997 [58,000] and 2002 [60,800]. It still runs perfectly and I shall change it this year [67,000ish] when it gets a bit warmer.
Cant get 13 years out of that - so John F is a bit inconsistent with his information.
I must admit that I have been looking at his previous intervals of 4 years as his "normal" regime, somehow think "he changes it at approx 3 years or so". Old age and all that.....
Well, 13 years? Maybe that IS too long....
Please accept my apologies...
|
|
I think that the 'sealed for life' engine is one of those advertorials that is released to raise the profile of a company, then quietly dropped. Since the cost of an oil change isn't high, the financial incentive to develop such a system is pretty small.
All engines suffer from blowby to some degree, and with blowby comes degradation of the oil. Eventually the acid buffers are depleted and the oil needs to be changed.
|
|
"Sealed for life" might have worked better is the days when engines burnt oil - regular top-ups would mean the oil in the sump never being that old !
Most "sealed for life" automatic transmissions still seem to need checking and fluid replacements - but not inside the warranty period.
|
|
|
All engines suffer from blowby to some degree, and with blowby comes degradation of the oil. Eventually the acid buffers are depleted and the oil needs to be changed.
True, but modern engine tolerances are so good that this is not much of a problem, especially if Aunt Minnie only does 2000 miles a year. I still contend she can safely leave her oil unchanged for at least 5 years.
Mr TR7 has so far [admittedly only about 67,000m] never needed topping up between changes so it truly was 11yrs old - and still doing the job.
|
|
In gasoline engines blowby isn't caused by poor ring to-wall-sealing, but poor ring-to-land sealing which tends to be a function of pressure. That's why blowby is worst at low cylinder pressures, which is exactly what happens when aunt Minnie tootles around town.
Tight tolerences make adequate lubrication more critical. Run a worn engine and a tight engine without oil and the tight engine will seize first every time. You've seen the snake oil salesmen pouring sand into the oil filler cap while the engine is running to 'prove' that their magic additive works. The abrasive sand opens up the clearances and inhibits seizure.
|
You've seen the snake oil salesmen pouring sand into the oil filler cap while the engine is running to 'prove' that their magic additive works. The abrasive sand opens up the clearances and inhibits seizure.
Er, no, unthrottled - I haven't!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ9-yx3NRV4
...but I have now!!! Must try it on the TR7.
|
In gasoline engines blowby isn't caused by poor ring to-wall-sealing, but poor ring-to-land sealing which tends to be a function of pressure. That's why blowby is worst at low cylinder pressures
I can't see it matters which side of the ring gases blow by, unthrottled. Presumably if the ring[s] are worn, it will be around the inside as their springiness will continue to force them against the cylinder wall allowing more of a gap within the piston grooves. Anyway, in Aunt Minnie's low mileage modern engine there will be very little wear and very little blowby, so in the five years it takes her to get from, say, 35,000 to 45,000 I see no good reason to change the modern oil at all, let alone x 5.
|
|
|
|
Please accept my apologies...
And mine - should've typed '11 years' not 13 - had 2013 on the brain.
|
And mine - should've typed '11 years' not 13 - had 2013 on the brain.
Thank the lord for that, only a total muppet would want to use oil for 13 years.
|
And mine - should've typed '11 years' not 13 - had 2013 on the brain.
Thank the lord for that, only a total muppet would want to use oil for 13 years.
Well, T'bird, it depended on which came first - 10,000m or down to the minimum mark. It could indeed have been 13yrs.
TM.
|
And mine - should've typed '11 years' not 13 - had 2013 on the brain.
Thank the lord for that, only a total muppet would want to use oil for 13 years.
Well, T'bird, it depended on which came first - 10,000m or down to the minimum mark. It could indeed have been 13yrs.
TM.
Only total muppets allow their oil to get down to the minimum mark on the dipstick. Normal drivers top up as the oil level drops.
|
|
Only total muppets allow their oil to get down to the minimum mark on the dipstick. Normal drivers top up as the oil level drops.
Normal drivers nowadays don't check teh oil.
Only the obsessive do..:-)
|
|
Thats sadly too true Madf, i along with a couple of my oppos had new lorries issued a couple of months ago probably £90ks worth apiece, i had reason to move one of the others last week and as soon as i turned the ignition on the low oil level message flashed up.
It takes 4 presses of menu buttons to check the oil, thank goodness for the low oil message eh?
shakes head in bewilderment
|
|
Unless I had a COE, I'd rather have check a dipstick.
|
|
So would i Unthrottled, unfortunately thats a cab tilting exercise on many lorries now and i don't like it at all, i like to see the oil level for myself and see its colour and smell it too.
Only grateful i haven't got an Iveco Stralis, the idiocy there has plumbed new depths, cab needs to be tilted even to top the oil up which it drinks.
|
|
>>Only total muppets allow their oil to get down to the minimum mark on the dipstick. Normal drivers top up as the oil level drops.
As long as it's above min (and below max) I'll leave it well alone. In fact I'll avoid topping-up and try to coincide it reaching the min with an oil change.
An exception was a Maxi that suffered oil surge off road. I tried overfilling to compensate but only succeeded in flooding the clutch with the stuff!
|
>>Only total muppets allow their oil to get down to the minimum mark on the dipstick. Normal drivers top up as the oil level drops.
As long as it's above min (and below max) I'll leave it well alone. In fact I'll avoid topping-up and try to coincide it reaching the min with an oil change.
Intelligent drivers with a modicum of engineering knowledge know that the sooner the engine warms up the better. During the winter I contend it is best to have the oil around the minimum level, as the less there is of it, the quicker it warms up.
Manufacturers tend to err on the safe side with oil capacity as they know top-ups will be forgotten in a significant percentage. My Audi takes 5 litres before it even reaches the minimum mark.
TM.
|
Intelligent drivers with a modicum of engineering knowledge know that the sooner the engine warms up the better. During the winter I contend it is best to have the oil around the minimum level, as the less there is of it, the quicker it warms up.
Manufacturers tend to err on the safe side with oil capacity as they know top-ups will be forgotten in a significant percentage. My Audi takes 5 litres before it even reaches the minimum mark.
Dangerous advice, even for VAG car owners - things like (poorly designed) hydraulic chain tensioners mean that even a momentary loss of oil pressure when under load can have disastrous consequences. Driving around on or less than the minimum mark can (and I know from bitter experience) along with enthusiastic cornering slosh the oil in the sump such that the oil pickup is exposed and instant loss of oil pressure which can take a precious few seconds to restore. Result - engine damage.
I'm surprised at your Audi taking more than 5 litres - most VAG cars I've seen (admittedly under 2 litre capacity) take between 3.5 - 4.5 litres to the max mark.
|
Intelligent drivers with a modicum of engineering knowledge know that the sooner the engine warms up the better. During the winter I contend it is best to have the oil around the minimum level, as the less there is of it, the quicker it warms u.
(Edit - gratuitious insult deleted. Do grow up Thunderbird - this isn't the schoolroom.)
Edited by Avant on 23/04/2013 at 23:27
|
|
What's idiotic about that? Oil warm-up is perishingly slow in wInter, especially if you don't do motorway driving.
|
What's idiotic about that? Oil warm-up is perishingly slow in wInter, especially if you don't do motorway driving.
If you need to ask you should not own a car but I will attempt to help you understand. If you run with the minimum oil in any oil usage will take it below min and whilst that may not be an issue in normal driving heavy braking, steep hills, sudden cornering etc can slosh the oil away from the pickup which will then such air in. And we all know (or should know) that air is a poor lubricant. It may not kill the engine immediately but over a period it will do it serious damage.
Makes me happy I only buy new cars and treat them correctly. No wonder so many people who come on here have serious engine issues either by their own misstreatment or possibly by the previous owner.
At the end of the day cold oil lubricates better than no oil.
|
|
>> If you run with the minimum oil in any oil usage will take it below min
I'd suggest the millions car manufacturers pay for R & D take this into account and that is why we're told to check the oil on level ground, some time after stopping.
|
may not be an issue in normal driving heavy braking, steep hills, sudden cornering etc can slosh the oil away from the pickup which will then such air in
This is potentially true. But in winter how much sharp braking and cornering would you actually be doing? I think it is a sensible idea.
The only downside is that if one has little margin for error if the level drops further.
|
|
Personally I think the manufacturers know best about oil levels and changes.
Anyone claiming otehrwise just needs to do a million miles of tesing in all conditions to prove me wrong.
I also suspect John F is trolling.
Edited by madf on 23/04/2013 at 18:26
|
|
"I also suspect John F is trolling."
Surely not! His ideas are good, especially the one about keeping oil level low so as to speed warm-up.
In fact, I have another similarly useful idea: why not drain the coolant out of the engine in winter? That would speed warm-up no end.
|
In fact, I have another similarly useful idea: why not drain the coolant out of the engine in winter?
No, that's just silly.
As with most parts of the engine, oil level is a matter of compromise. A high capacity gives a longer residence time in the sump for de-aeration and cooling during high speed operation. A lower capacity gives a faster warm-up. It's perfectly intelligent to alter the compromise to suit individual needs. Is a hotter spark plug "better" than a cold one? The question is of course meaningless. They're just different.
(Edit - I think FP was posting tongue-in-cheek.)
Edited by Avant on 23/04/2013 at 23:31
|
.
In fact, I have another similarly useful idea: why not drain the coolant out of the engine in winter? That would speed warm-up no end.
Porsche [VW Beetle] did that .........it seemed to work for them!
|
..it seemed to work for them!
The least said about air cooled engines, the better! "air doesn't boil" as the VW bug adverts used to say. Well, it has boiled-at -180C!
|
Manufacturers tend to err on the safe side with oil capacity as they know top-ups will be forgotten in a significant percentage. My Audi takes 5 litres before it even reaches the minimum mark.
I've had big diesels (1.9 - 2.0) from VAG and PSA and never fitted more than 5 litres in those, never mind the couple of small petrol Fiestas I had.
|
|
A big sump, 6.7 litres, and an engine oil heater/cooler is the belt and braces way - standard from the cheap Koreans!
|
, and an engine oil heater/cooler is the belt and braces way - standard from the cheap Koreans
...assuming the heat exchanger doesn't exchange more than heat!
|
, and an engine oil heater/cooler is the belt and braces way - standard from the cheap Koreans
...assuming the heat exchanger doesn't exchange more than heat!
Good point - must check when the coolant anti-corrosion inhibitor needs replacing - especially as the autobox is "water"-cooled as well !
|
Manufacturers tend to err on the safe side with oil capacity as they know top-ups will be forgotten in a significant percentage. My Audi takes 5 litres before it even reaches the minimum mark.
I've had big diesels (1.9 - 2.0) from VAG and PSA and never fitted more than 5 litres in those, never mind the couple of small petrol Fiestas I had.
It's a 1998 2.8V6 and 5litres gets it to 1mm above the minimum mark on the dipstick.
Insults like muppetry and accusations of trolling do not win arguments!
Incidentally, the original Mercedes gullwings had engine problems because they had too much oil [three gallons] which never warmed up properly during normal road use. You really can have too much of a good thing!
Anyway, it's been a fairly good debate - approaching the 100 mark! I trust HJ will eventually admit that it's OK these days for Aunt Minnie to leave her oil in for considerably longer than a year. I wonder if 'thunderbird' even scraped a pass in Physics 'O' level? [I had the 'A' level aged 17]
|
|
Changing the trolling for a little.....
What about the oil filter though?
Sure, the first filter will pick up all the manufacturing/running debris, but after that wont the next filter be simply a backstop in case of catastrophic engine failure (maybe even due to overdue oil changes).
Q. If a person only does 5000 miles a year and the manufacturers recommendation for oil is 10,000 miles/1 year, would backroomers think its OK to change the oil every year, and the filter every 2 years?
|
Q. If a person only does 5000 miles a year and the manufacturers recommendation for oil is 10,000 miles/1 year, would backroomers think its OK to change the oil every year, and the filter every 2 years?
Mileage is a convenient but fairly useless reminder to change oil. I would advocate an alternative oil change interval for every 500 or so cold starts irrespective of mileage covered but unfortunately there isn't a cold start indicator, just an odometer!
Based on the fact that I use the car roughly 5 days a week and average two cold starts a day, that works out at about a year for me.
|
Sure, the first filter will pick up all the manufacturing/running debris, but after that wont the next filter be simply a backstop in case of catastrophic engine failure (maybe even due to overdue oil changes).
There's always some metal-to-metal contact in a running engine, not just during the running-in period, so subsequent filter changes aren't useless!
Laboratory used oil analysis will include a metals analysis, so operators can monitor which parts are subject to the most wear and take corrective action.
|
I wonder if 'thunderbird' even scraped a pass in Physics 'O' level? [I had the 'A' level aged 17]
What the fek has a physics O level got to do with being able to follow simple good practice and change your oil according to the manufacturers recomendations.
|
What the fek has a physics O level got to do with being able to follow simple good practice and change your oil according to the manufacturers recomendations.?
Absolutely nothing. Anyone can unquestioningly follow dogma. It's to do with being able to understand stuff, especially stuff that moves and interacts with other stuff, and to be able to argue and question in an intelligent manner about such stuff.
|
|
So it's OK to use "fek"? Seems like a sneaky way to bypass the swear filter to me.
It beats me why people have to get into this sort of language on a forum such as this.
|
So it's OK to use "fek"? Seems like a sneaky way to bypass the swear filter to me.
It beats me why people have to get into this sort of language on a forum such as this.
I agree - it's the same word, spoken in a different dialect, spelt phonetically.
|
|
Doesn't have the same level of vulgarity in Oirish though. Bit like American "ass" is not synonymous with its British counterpart.
|
|
At the risk of upsetting everyone I have a reasonable handle on the oil change myth –or myths. There are two, one myth is that manufacturers insist on certain oil change intervals – they don’t, the other myth is that oil never needs to be changed because its n millions of years old and wont degrade.
Manufacturers have always suggested oil change intervals based on mileage for cars and trucks hours for other equipment. BUT this is the important bit they will hide somewhere in the service manual ,advice to contact the dealer if you use the vehicle in a certain way – they will give scant details. For example the Fiat 1.3 diesel engine has a service interval of 20,000 mls but FIAT recommend 10,000 miles for oil changes if you do short journeys and even less if a oil level warning light comes on indicating that the oil is depleted.
The normal situation I see is the guy who justifies never changing his oil and points to the fact that his car only covers 2,000 mls per year. Fine, your car engine will last 10 years.
My car has its oil changed every 10,000 miles, 4 times a year I expect the engine to last 10 years.
Lets face it things have moved on, when I first started work in the motor industry 20,000 miles on a set of pistons was remarkable now if you look after an engine it could cover 500,000 miles; taxis frequently achieve this. (But then they change their engine oils more frequently than the service recommendation (usually))
It’s all about acids in the oil, modern engines, oils and fuels are better at dealing with them but eventually the oil will become saturated and the engine starts to dissolve and the oil is like grinding paste, that white stuff you find in the sump is almost certainly aluminium from the pistons.
To others who suggest that there have never been any timing chain failures, go out a buy a 1963 mini 850, you will change the timing chain every year. Modern “chain” engines have also been known to fail too, due to poor oil change management.
|
The normal situation I see is the guy who justifies never changing his oil and points to the fact that his car only covers 2,000 mls per year. Fine, your car engine will last 10 years.
I don't justify 'never', just every 10,000 or every 5yrs [could arguably be 10yrs], whichever comes sooner. The average age of my three engines is 23 [TR 33, Audi 14, Focus 12] and the 33yr old with very infrequent changes is just fine.
My car has its oil changed every 10,000 miles, 4 times a year I expect the engine to last 10 years.
That's 400,000m. We shall see. [I did get 240,000 out of one of our Passats - still consuming less than a litre per 1000m when sold - cheap semi-synthetic every 10k]
Lets face it things have moved on, when I first started work in the motor industry 20,000 miles on a set of pistons was remarkable
You must be ancient - my father's 1958ish Rover 105S had a lot more than that on the clock when I drove it down to Cornwall in 1967 - I don't remember any engine repairs but the gear lever connector rod did once snap.
but eventually the oil will become saturated and the engine starts to dissolve and the oil is like grinding paste, that white stuff you find in the sump is almost certainly aluminium from the pistons.
Sorry, Earthman, I just don't believe this. Perhaps this was one extreme neglected case with a completely clogged filter? Has anyone on this site ever drained 'white stuff'? Are you perhaps confusing it with the salad cream you get when the head gasket goes?
To others who suggest that there have never been any timing chain failures, go out a buy a 1963 mini 850, you will change the timing chain every year.
I don't believe this, either, Earthman.. There were loads of minis around in my youth and although lots went wrong with them the chains usually lasted longer than a year.
|
|
a 1963 mini?? white stuff in the sump?? huh?
Triumph TR7 aka "The Shape of Things to Come" - I remember them as just a joke of a sports car when they were launched....
Do most people really care about keeping a car going for 400,000+ miles?
Or for 20+ years?
In my experience cars start dropping to pieces after about 100,000* miles and after about 150,000* miles become too expensive to keep running. i.e. they become scrappers
*all figures are approximate and subject to "best guess" and "can't be bothered to think too much about it" errors.
WARNING: There now follows a number of trolls about how this that and other make/model of car easily lasts for 400,000+ miles with the right maintenance of course......
But who really cares?
Edited by brum on 25/04/2013 at 22:07
|
|
Like axes and brushes that regularly get parts replaced, any car will last for ever as long as it doesn't rot and all parts are renewed as required - whether there's any point though is questionable.
The TR7, like the Princess, was one of those BL cars that had the exterior styling sketched and then put straight into production without any real structural design exercise being carried out.
I can remember seeing Tony Pond's TR7 on the first gravel rally - retired half way through as the floorpan collapsed !
|
Triumph TR7 aka "The Shape of Things to Come" - I remember them as just a joke of a sports car when they were launched....
They were indeed, but when they brought the production down to Canley from the unspeakable Speke they made a convertible with a decent gearbox [LT77] and created virtually a different car. Harris Mann's design does indeed seem to polarise opinion - which is arguably a good thing!
Unfortunately by about 1980 there were about 2.4 dollars to the pound so they were uncompetitive in the US so production was stopped.
Those of us with these well built reliable cars are now having the last laugh.......how many of you have had a car which has depreciated by only £50 a year - and only needs the oil and filter changed every 10,000m or 5yrs [or more], whichever comes sooner, and is still fun to drive?
|
|
|
|
|
|
