SWMBO has reclaimed her car (Leo the Leaf) because it has isofix in the front passenger seat and mini swmbo likes to be beside mum whilst being chauffeured around, so I am now back to using the C class for commuting purposes and I’m really missing the Leaf for its simplicity and running costs and I’ve been looking at used examples where many a bargain lurks. Seems that the rear end has fallen out of the used EV market, particularly the Leaf so there are many stupidly cheap cars about. I can get a sensible mileage 4yr old big battery 62kwh example from Cinch for around £11k or a private sale 40kwh car for much less. It is tempting despite the £3k loss I’d take on the Merc. I’d save around £2k a year on fuel. www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202412287582428
Seen quite a few Mazda MX-30s being offered at silly prices second hand, relative to similar-aged / mileage /sized petrol cars - sometimes at 66% off off the original list price at 3yo / 30-35,000 miles (£11k - £12k).
For them (35.5kWhr battery) and similar EV with a low-ish range but where the prospective owner has a good home (and possibly work) charging capability and doesn't do much mileage per day or longer trips that often, such cars might seem more of a bargain. My local KIA dealership is now also a franchise for BYD, so it looks like the Chinese are moving in big time to the UK market.
I'm still seeing silly prices for 'standard' petrol-engined cars, especially 5-15 years old, particularly good quality TC/CVT automatics. Those in good condition visually (i.e. no body damage, rust or generally noted on the service / MOT history) and those with FSH / no serious MOT failures command ridiculous prices.
For example, a 2016 KIA Venga 3 1.6 petrol auto was recently being offered at that same dealership for just £2k less than the 2021 plate MX-30s, and you can get a 2018-19 car for the same price as the (newer) Mazda.
A shame my 19yo / 75,000 mile Mazda3 1.6 petrol has rust on the wheel arches (though apparently nothing serious on the underbody), otherwise it might be worth a good deal more than it currently is. It just passed its MOT with no adversaries, with no failures since new, and drives very nicely.
To be honest, even cr*p petrol cars are being offered (and bought) at silly money, just because they don't have any external rust showing and they aren't of the more modern 'complex' variety with loads of electronic gizmos (especially of the intrusive safety variety) and that aren't hybrids, but are EU4 or better (mine is), so you can drive them in ULEZ type zones without the swingeing extra penalties.
Does you needs / charging situation mean a bigger EV battery / range is a must?
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The 40kwh Leaf fulfills 99% of our needs really, a bigger one would be handy for holidays and the rare occasions I do a spot of hill walking in the summer. I probably won’t replace the Merc, I do like it. But this is seriously tempting me to make a daft offer as it would actually pay for itself. Only issue is that the Merc then becomes an expensive drive ornament for 99% of its life. I don’t know, my head spins daft ideas round and round all the time. My wife is rightly demented.
Nissan, LEAF, Hatchback, 2015, Other, 1 (cc), 5 doors
Price:£3,450
www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/nissan-leaf...l
Edited by SLO76 on 03/01/2025 at 21:26
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Quite like the Mazda MX-30 and it would do my daily commute no bother. I have a driveway and a charger where I can charge for 6.9p pkwh plus I can charge at work for 20p pkwh. My firm has just installed a large solar array too.
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You could always put solar on your roof and charge for free. Not so great on the short winter days but it would be excellent in the long summer days.
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You could always put solar on your roof and charge for free. Not so great on the short winter days but it would be excellent in the long summer days.
The firm got a big chunk of your tax money to install them which means they’ll pay for themselves in less than 3yrs, while the quotes for solar plus battery systems I had for the house last year would take 15-18yrs to recover the upfront costs, which makes them sadly a very poor investment as the battery pack will be due replacement at or before it’s even paid for itself. More effort is needed to force greater competition and lower prices in the domestic renewable energy market in the UK, for now it just doesn’t add up.
Edited by SLO76 on 04/01/2025 at 00:24
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You could always put solar on your roof and charge for free. Not so great on the short winter days but it would be excellent in the long summer days.
The firm got a big chunk of your tax money to install them which means they’ll pay for themselves in less than 3yrs, while the quotes for solar plus battery systems I had for the house last year would take 15-18yrs to recover the upfront costs, which makes them sadly a very poor investment as the battery pack will be due replacement at or before it’s even paid for itself. More effort is needed to force greater competition and lower prices in the domestic renewable energy market in the UK, for now it just doesn’t add up.
The max. benefit comes when you pair the PV array with a smart battery 'wall', so that it can (as you wish) sell large amounts of lecky back to your utility supplier at the most optimum time (rate) or use it either in a jam when you need to recharge the car and/or during a power cut as a backup of sorts.
My sister and B-I-L had one installed last year (I had previously advocated this to them) for these reasons, although they don't yet have an EV, more for the shorter payback via exporting back to the grid and a modicum of backup.
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You could always put solar on your roof and charge for free. Not so great on the short winter days but it would be excellent in the long summer days.
The firm got a big chunk of your tax money to install them which means they’ll pay for themselves in less than 3yrs, while the quotes for solar plus battery systems I had for the house last year would take 15-18yrs to recover the upfront costs, which makes them sadly a very poor investment as the battery pack will be due replacement at or before it’s even paid for itself. More effort is needed to force greater competition and lower prices in the domestic renewable energy market in the UK, for now it just doesn’t add up.
The max. benefit comes when you pair the PV array with a smart battery 'wall', so that it can (as you wish) sell large amounts of lecky back to your utility supplier at the most optimum time (rate) or use it either in a jam when you need to recharge the car and/or during a power cut as a backup of sorts.
My sister and B-I-L had one installed last year (I had previously advocated this to them) for these reasons, although they don't yet have an EV, more for the shorter payback via exporting back to the grid and a modicum of backup.
This is what I priced up, estimated savings would see repayment of initial investment of between 15-18yrs. An unwise investment in my opinion as the battery pack would require replacement before it was even paid for most likely, and I’m not even factoring in the increase in home insurance putting a battery into your home would probably cause.
Edited by SLO76 on 04/01/2025 at 16:04
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You could always put solar on your roof and charge for free. Not so great on the short winter days but it would be excellent in the long summer days.
The firm got a big chunk of your tax money to install them which means they’ll pay for themselves in less than 3yrs, while the quotes for solar plus battery systems I had for the house last year would take 15-18yrs to recover the upfront costs, which makes them sadly a very poor investment as the battery pack will be due replacement at or before it’s even paid for itself. More effort is needed to force greater competition and lower prices in the domestic renewable energy market in the UK, for now it just doesn’t add up.
The max. benefit comes when you pair the PV array with a smart battery 'wall', so that it can (as you wish) sell large amounts of lecky back to your utility supplier at the most optimum time (rate) or use it either in a jam when you need to recharge the car and/or during a power cut as a backup of sorts.
My sister and B-I-L had one installed last year (I had previously advocated this to them) for these reasons, although they don't yet have an EV, more for the shorter payback via exporting back to the grid and a modicum of backup.
This is what I priced up, estimated savings would see repayment of initial investment of between 15-18yrs. An unwise investment in my opinion as the battery pack would require replacement before it was even paid for most likely, and I’m not even factoring in the increase in home insurance putting a battery into your home would probably cause.
I suppose the payback time can vary a reasonable amount depending upon how large the PV array and battery wall is, as the installation cost isn't that much different from a smaller one to a large one.
My sister's home has a large roof and has a LOT of PV panels on it. It may also help when the government does one of these 'paying people' (handsomely) to switch off their incoming electrical supply at peak times when supplies are very low, and thus having any battery wall, and especially a high capacity one, is of significant benefit.
I think their calculated payback was nearer to 8-10 years if I recall. I do wonder at the insurance premium though, given all the negative publicity regarding unstoppable lithium battery fires, especially in confined spaces. Theirs in in their garage (their gas fired heating boiler is on the other wall!), though their ICE car is normally parked outside on the driveway.
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With the right charging point we can use the Nissan as battery storage for the house apparently as it is one of the few EV’s of its vintage and value that can flow both ways. Sadly said charging points were only available for a short period in the UK as a trial and are no longer an option which is madness to me.
The gaffer barely uses her car at the moment as she’s taking a year off to look after bambino so it could be earning its keep as storage, feeding on our cheap ev tariff overnight and powering the house by day. Thinking of the thousands of Nissan Leaf’s on the UK’s driveways, it seems daft not to utilise a huge amount of additional battery storage.
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If those Funky Cats were capable of V2G, it would be a great solution - charge from solar or the off peak grid and then feed back into the grid when both demand and price are high. Alternatively, disconnect when needed.
Edit: if you can install a CCS charger, apparently the Cat is at least V2H.
Edited by Brit_in_Germany on 04/01/2025 at 21:42
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The economics of PVs and batteries are still barely convincing.
PVs generate most energy April-October when daytime demand is typically lowest. In winter months when energy demand is highest generation is low.
Over a year a 4kw array will generate ~3500 kwh pa. The "4kw" assumes full sun and optimal alignment - the UK gets cloudy, dark, and the earth rotates. A 4kw system installed is ~£6k and may last (say) 15 years. The cost per kwh is ~11p.
Batteries can store energy from PVs, or the grid at low night rates and sold back to the grid. Rates per kwh for sale back to the grid vary between 3p and up to 27p in particular circumstances - eg: peak periods. Rates vary by energy company.
The cost of a (say) 10Kwh battery seems highly variable but ~£5000 installed may be a reasonable ball park. Used to the max it could store/sell 3650 kwh. Over (say) a 10 year period the cost per kwh would be £5000/36500 = 13p per kwh.
Conclusions
- the cost of PV and battery installation would cost ~24p kwh - close to the current cost of buying from the grid
- the price of sale back to the grid may typically be 10-15p per kwh - so investment in PV and batteries makes no financial sense
- installing PVs could be worthwhile if the output is used to charge an EV as it offsets grid costs of ~25p. May only work for part of the year as output in winter is low.
- if installation is motivated by environmental concerns or some degree of energy independence (power cuts etc) it becomes a personal choice
All the fairly crude estimates above are based upon current legislation and values. Over a 10-20 year horizon the:
- costs of gas could vary widely based on political and economic events,
- the price of PV panels and batteries could fall materially,
- government legislation may better regulate export to the grid
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<< Batteries can store energy from PVs, or the grid at low night rates and sold back to the grid. >>
Would I be right to assume that the working life of solar panels is a good bit longer than that of any batteries ? Our PV panels are now 13 years old and seem to be generating as effectively as when installed, but there are too many variables to be sure.
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<< Batteries can store energy from PVs, or the grid at low night rates and sold back to the grid. >>
Would I be right to assume that the working life of solar panels is a good bit longer than that of any batteries ? Our PV panels are now 13 years old and seem to be generating as effectively as when installed, but there are too many variables to be sure.
I suspect it very much depends upon the design and build quality of the panels and related equipment (and the quality of the installer can make a difference too), plus how much damage the panels get from the weather (including debris from nearby trees hitting them) and local wildlife.
When I was working in Construction, I had heard of some touting a 25 year lifespan, others 15, but these were ones used by the 'industry' on commercial buildings, major refurbs and newbuild homes on a bigger scale, not those seemingly only available to private home owners as retrofits, if that makes any difference (possibly some outfits use cheapo quality panels, etc and aren't as good at the installations).
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<< I suspect it very much depends upon the design and build quality of the panels and related equipment (and the quality of the installer can make a difference too), plus how much damage the panels get from the weather (including debris from nearby trees hitting them) and local wildlife.>>
I have the advantage of living in a bungalow and the panels are arrayed facing a small flat roof, so I can occasionally give them a wipe over with a squeezy floor mop. Also worth remembering just now that if snow settles on the panels output drops to zero :-)
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<< I suspect it very much depends upon the design and build quality of the panels and related equipment (and the quality of the installer can make a difference too), plus how much damage the panels get from the weather (including debris from nearby trees hitting them) and local wildlife.>>
I have the advantage of living in a bungalow and the panels are arrayed facing a small flat roof, so I can occasionally give them a wipe over with a squeezy floor mop. Also worth remembering just now that if snow settles on the panels output drops to zero :-)
Like with cars, I'd bet that PV panels don't react well long term to animal poo. Another use for Flash, though I'd give that mop a good clean afterwards just in case it picked up something 'waste related'! It could well have been the main reason why your panels have lasted in tip-top condition for so long.
Not sure my sis and BIL could do the same, given they effectively have a three-storey house. Maybe a hose-down every now and then, assuming the water pressure is sufficient...either that or employ a well-trained monkey. ;-)
Daft thing is they just got a new car as well, but it isn't a plug-in hybrid (definitely not an EV) as far as I know. Maybe their next car will be, so they can take advantage of the large number of PV panels they now have and presumably quite large capacity battery wall.
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