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NIP * 2 - Bromptonaut

Two employees, Fred and his son George, use a van owned by their employer. While they're working at any given time either could be the driver.

They're caught by an average speed camera driving above the speed limit for their vehicle.

A NIP/S172 notice goes to their employer. Employer after all diligence cannot say with certainty who was driving, just that it would be one of Fred or George.

Can the police send an S172 notice at the same time to each inviting them to say who was driving or what assistance they can provide to identify the driver?

Edited by Bromptonaut on 26/06/2024 at 21:01

NIP * 2 - Brit_in_Germany

Did the employer ask its employees who was driving at that time?

NIP * 2 - Bromptonaut

Did the employer ask its employees who was driving at that time?

Not clear whether they did but the employees are adamant that they have no way of knowing.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 27/06/2024 at 13:15

NIP * 2 - skidpan

Did the employer ask its employees who was driving at that time?

Not clear whether they did but the employees are adamant that they have no way of knowing.

Last place I worked at had a log book in each vehicle that the user had to sign, disciplinary if you didn't. When a NIP arrived fleet manager knew who to name.

NIP * 2 - Middleman

They can send a s172 request to whoever they like, so the short answer is “yes”. However, needless to say, it is not as simple as that.

Under s172 there are two different levels of duty to respond:

The “person keeping the vehicle” (which I’ll call the Keeper) must provide the driver’s details.

Any other person” must provide “…any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver.”

I see two possible scenarios in the circumstances you describe:

The first is that the vehicle is taken out by different people (and is, as such, a “pool” vehicle). In that case, the employer would almost certainly be seen as the Keeper.

The second is that the vehicle is provided to one individual on a semi-permanent basis. That person usually uses it every day and perhaps takes it home at night. In that case, the individual employee would almost certainly be seen as the Keeper.

I appreciate that my scenarios would not necessarily fit every situation However, there is no definition of “the person keeping the vehicle”. If there is any dispute, that fact would be for the prosecution to prove and for a court to decide.

If the employer is deemed to be the Keeper and is a “body corporate”, then he cannot take advantage of the “reasonable diligence” defence unless he either keeps records (of who has the vehicle) or shows that it is not reasonable for him to do so. So on receipt of the s172 request, he must either name the driver or show why records were not kept. If the court agrees that it was not reasonable to keep records he can then go on to offer a defence based on “reasonable diligence.”

If an individual is deemed to be the Keeper, he must name the driver or rely on the reasonable diligence defence. To succeed with that he must show that he did not know who was driving and could not, having exercised reasonable diligence, establish who was.

In the circumstances you describe, if the employer responded to a s172 request by naming two possible drivers, I believe the usual practice for the police would be simply to prosecute the employer under s172. It will be assumed that the employer is the Keeper and his duty is therefore to provide the driver’s details. Naming two possible drivers does not fulfil that duty. If the employer wants to defend the s172 charge on the basis that he was not the Keeper (and so has fulfilled his duty by providing all the information he has) it will be for the prosecution to prove that the employer was the Keeper.

Do you know the circumstances of how this vehicle is “kept”? Does it relate to one of my two scenarios or is it something in between, perhaps? It may help the employer if he gets his retaliation in first by responding that he is not the Keeper and in naming the two possible drivers, he has provided all the information he has. It does not necessarily mean the police will not prosecute him but it might persuade them to take a different tack.

Edited by Middleman on 27/06/2024 at 14:25

NIP * 2 - Bromptonaut

In Middleman's scenario it's a pool vehicle. The two I've called Fred and George use it for their work travelling to and between tasks. The employer keeps record to the extent that he knows the van was with Fred and George on the day in question but they're not required to keep a log of who drove it on each sector or whatever during their working day.

We don't believe the employer has been prosecuted for failure to name.

A further twist would be if the van was leased to the employer and the initial NIP went to the lessor.

NIP * 2 - Orb>>

If Fred or George were using the vehicle to go to a job, the emploer should know which job fits the time of the offence, either going to or coming from .

The road details ie A22 at the junction of the M25 for instance ???

If it was over a certain wight it would have a tachograph fitted so more evidence.

NIP * 2 - Middleman

In Middleman's scenario it's a pool vehicle...

Then the Company (as the Keeper) would be responsible for providing the details of the person they believed was driving. If it was signed out to "Fred and George" they (the Company) are opening themselves up to problems. They should sign it out to (say) George and make it clear to him that if a s172 request is served on the Company they will name him as the driver. I will then be a matter for George and Fred to resolve between them to state who was driving when George receives his own s172. If George goes on to name Fred and he does not confirm he was driving I can see both of them being on the wrong end of a s172 charge.

There really are only two possibilities in the circumstances where the Company names two possible drivers: either the police will send a s172 request to both or the Company will be prosecuted under s172. In most circumstances my money would be on the latter.

Section 172 is a piece of legislation full of conundrums. It virtually requires "Bodies Corporate" to keep a record of drivers of the vehicles of which they are Keepers. If they don't they will be in a very difficult position if they do not know who was driving because they cannot then take advantage of the "reasonable diligence" defence.

But it places no such obligation on individuals. In fact, following the case of "Atkinson vs DPP" the High Court ruled that Keepers of vehicles have no ongoing duty to exercise diligence in respect of the drivers of their vehicles or even begin to find out who was driving them until a s172 request is served.

Debbie Atkinson was selling her motor scooter. She allowed a potential buyer to take a test drive and whilst he was doing so, he committed a speeding offence. Ms Atkinson did not have his details and was prosecuted under s172. She was convicted in the Magistrates' Court but appealed to the HIgh Court by way of a "Case Stated". The High Court found in her favour:

Atkinson v Director of Public Prosecutions | [2011] EWHC 3363 (Admin) | England and Wales High Court (Administrative Court) | Judgment | Law | CaseMine

There is a clear distinction in s172 between the duties of those "keeping" vehicles and any other person. There is also a clear distinction between the obligations of "bodies corporate" and individuals. Your scenario contains a mixture of all of these.

My view of the conclusions a court might come to as far as the Company goes if they face a s172 charge is this:

That the Company is the "person keeping the vehicle".

As such, as a "body corporate" they must keep records of who was driving their vehicles if they want to take advantage of the "reasonable diligence" defence.

That the records the Company keeps are inadequate. The idea of keeping records in such circumstances is so that when there are a number of possible drivers (e.g. with a "pool" vehicle) the driver can be readily identified. Signing a vehicle out to two people does not achieve that aim. If he court finds this, then the reasonable diligence defence is not available.

The Company will not be able, from their records, to identify the driver, so they will be convicted.

In the event that a s172 notice is sent to both drivers:

If neither of them admits to being the driver they are likely both to face a s172 charge. How successful they would be in defending that depends on whether a "reasonable diligence" argument succeeds.

A further twist would be if the van was leased to the employer and the initial NIP went to the lessor.

The leasing company would simply name the Company to which they leased the vehicle. The twist might come if this extra step took the speeding allegation close tto "timing out". If there was any inkling of this the police would probably take s172 action against somebody.

NIP * 2 - Middleman

If Fred or George were using the vehicle to go to a job, the emploer should know which job fits the time of the offence, either going to or coming from.

But they already know where it happened. And....

Employer after all diligence cannot say with certainty who was driving, just that it would be one of Fred or George.