Inform DVSA (or whatever they are called today). If its that serious they will carry out a recall.
I intend to do so, I also wondered about the mechanics of finding details of other affected owners with a view to establishing a class action.
Social media. Set up a Facebook page on the subject, anyone googling the problem should find it. But a no win no fee class action would need a lot of names.
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A brake servo failure does not have to mean a total loss of brakes, a harder press on the pedal may be all that is required.
and even more alarming I lost all power applying the brakes unless I pushed very hard on the brake pedal
Even in your case the brakes were still there but they needed harder press. Unpleasant and worrying but no accident.
If multiple cars were having total brake failure I am sure any manufacturer would be organising a recall. Remember the issues with the Celerio when it was first introduced, only 2 cars affected (both in the Autocar Road Test) but Suzuki took all those already sold back into the dealerships and suspended sales. But in those it did result in total loss of brakes.
I also wondered about the mechanics of finding details of other affected owners with a view to establishing a class action.
If the DVSA won't get involved it would not be as serious as the labels may appear and remember any class action may be very expensive legally and Honda have far more money than you do.
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I’ve had ths problem, a few weeks outside of warranty. Took a month to repair. Not sure how to take this further. Any suggestions?
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I’m an affected owner. Any more of us around?
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I’m an affected owner. Any more of us around?
clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=16448.0
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I’m an affected owner. Any more of us around?
clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=16448.0
That's a helpful link - it adds to the evidence that this problem is affecting a whole range of Honda cars of a similar age.
I've contacted Which, who sent me a draft of a letter to send to the dealership that first supplied my CR-V, but so far the dealership haven't responded. I've also written to the Sunday Times, but they haven't followed it up - perhaps it needs to a case of "the more the merrier" (though I'm not feeling very merry about it!)
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I will write to both Which and Sunday Times
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Thx ma***
My Jazz has now been fixed but I’m not sure how reliable it’s going to be after this problem.
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My Jazz has now been fixed but I’m not sure how reliable it’s going to be after this problem.
Pleased to hear your Jazz now fixed - I've been waiting since before Christmas. I completely identify with your reservation about future reliability, having always had problem-free Hondas in the past.
I'm seriously tempted to sell my CR-V when its repaired and go back to runnning a Toyota!
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In other news, the 2013 CRV my son and family owned was bought some 5 years ago by one of my colleagues, did them both a turn.
During sons ownership the aircon compressor was replaced under Honda approved used warranty to the tune of some £1400 (apparently not unusual) but every year my colleague informs me of a clean MOT pass and reliable motoring, he has it serviced once a year by his indy and it still looks pristine, should have bought the thing myself.
I still reckon one of the ecu/component repair workshops could sort these brake accumulators out, Robson and Francis in London are known in Landcruiser circles to be able to fix the accumulators which fail eventually on LCs for circa £200, taken to the dealer you're into £3000+ for a combined accumulator/master cy/ABS unit.
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Yes - currently in Honda awaiting a discussion with the service manager regarding my CRV (70 reg) brake servo failure and the repair bill of £2300. Will update shortly
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My Honda Jazz Hybrid, first registered Sep 2020 has recently suffered a failure of the brake simulator. Now out of warranty and the initial quote from my local Honda dealer to fix the problem was just over £2K. They agreed to contact Honda to request a “goodwill” payment and the response from Honda was to reduce the cost of the replacement part by 40% thus reducing the overall cost to £1500. Still far too much considering the car is only 3.5 years old and has 9000 miles on the clock. There is also likely to be a considerable delay in obtaining a replacement part from Japan so my car will be off the road for quite a while. Not good enough Honda. I am considering taking legal advice.
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I'd be interested to know which component fails/breaks down in these modules. Probably a 10p resistor.
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Seems no one is interested in seeking repair of the offending item.
Those of us on the Landcruiser forums get our brake accumulators repaired in London when they fail, at a cost of some £250 when the complete ABS/master cyl/accumulator unit would be well over £2000 plus fitting at the dealer.
I'd be making some phone calls and sending emails to ecu testing/repair specialists, you have nothing to lose bar the cost of a phone call or two and some well spent research and typing time, someone's got t be the first to find a get around.
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Seems no one is interested in seeking repair of the offending item.
Those of us on the Landcruiser forums get our brake accumulators repaired in London when they fail, at a cost of some £250 when the complete ABS/master cyl/accumulator unit would be well over £2000 plus fitting at the dealer.
I'd be making some phone calls and sending emails to ecu testing/repair specialists, you have nothing to lose bar the cost of a phone call or two and some well spent research and typing time, someone's got t be the first to find a get around.
Agreed, if it's a known problem, then surely someone like BBA reman would have heard of it and have a fix at considerably reduced (sensible) cost.
When my climate control failed on my BMW, I sent it to a guy in Cornwall who repaired it for £25. One thing I like about this country after watching some of the car restoration programmes is the number of talented people in companies and one man bands in sheds in the middle of nowhere who can put things right however difficult it initially looks.
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"if it's a known problem, then surely someone like BBA reman would have heard of it and have a fix"
BBA reman went bust/closed down some time ago.
find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk...5
find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk...2
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"if it's a known problem, then surely someone like BBA reman would have heard of it and have a fix"
BBA reman went bust/closed down some time ago.
find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk...5
find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk...2
I should have checked, it's been a while since I read about them. There are others.
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Seems no one is interested in seeking repair of the offending item.
As the OP who first flagged this issue in January (in my case a CR-V but I am aware of several Jazz affected) - I'll reply.
It seems that all the units have failed on 2020 vehicles, just out of the 3 year warranty.
As such I am still seeking recompense from Honda UK (via the Honda agent who sold the vehicle) under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 which attributes liability to the manufacturer for manufacturing faults up to 6 years from date of construction.
Under these circumstances I don't want to jeopardise my claim by using non-Honda parts, and in any case would be reluctant to seek repair of a safety component on a 3 year old car - whereas I would certainly follow up your suggestion for a component affecting a non-safety critical issue such as air-conditioning.
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Under these circumstances I don't want to jeopardise my claim by using non-Honda parts, and in any case would be reluctant to seek repair of a safety component on a 3 year old car - whereas I would certainly follow up your suggestion for a component affecting a non-safety critical issue such as air-conditioning.
Ironically aircon failure is something else that effects Hondas too, thankfully in my sons case they bought the vehicle with Honda approved warranty and it failed within the 12 months guarantee, a £1400 job.
I can understand your reluctance but there must come a point when you resign yourself the maker is not going to behave as one might expect and seek other methods to keep yourself mobile at sensible cost, who's to say the new replacement part won't fail again unless its been modified and if it has then they definately need to stump up, the very last thing i would want to do if they continue to baulk is put another penny of my hard earned their way and would be seeking alternative workshops etc for all future work servicing etc, i appreciate others see things differently, hope the maker does the right thing in these cases.
The Toyota brake accumulator motor failure issue happens rarely, with vehicles typically in their late teens or twenties and with seriously high mileage, the London workshop (Robson and Francis rewinds) rebuilds the accumulator motor which is the usual culprit, at a cost of around 1/10th that of replacing the whole brake unit.
Might be interesting to give Robsons a ring and see if they've had any of the Honda units in for refurb already.
Edited by gordonbennet on 15/04/2024 at 14:38
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I spoke to my dealership on Friday and again this morning. I've taken advice from a local trusted garage (who also has a Jazz in for Servo repair), Which and I have reviewed the DVSA complaints process. Below is a brief resume of Fridays dealership discussion:
- the conversation was frank and clear and I must commend the service manager for their pragamatic and professional attitude throughout.
- I stated that it was my view that the car was sold to me with a part that was not fit for purpose or of suitable quality. It should be expected that the brake servo should be expected to last the lifetime of the car.
- I was aware that under the consumer services act 2015 that it states that goods can be fully refunded or repaired at the sellers cost if they suffer major failure within 6 years of purchase if they were not fit for purpose at the point of sale.
- that I was aware that this was a wider problem via the online discussions, evidence from local garage (70 Reg Honda Jazz in for brake servo repair) and the 9 vehicles that the dealership currently had in for repair for the same issue.
- I asked about the timelines for repair and was informed that there was a likely 6 week wait. This reaffirmed my view that the part is in high demand due to the incidence of failures.
- I was offered a possible 40% goodwill discount on the repair and then asked what my intended outcome was. I stated that the repair was required due to a manufacturing fault and As it was not fit for purpose then I expected a repair at Hondas expense. This was to be escalated to Honda UK for resolution.
My bottom line is that this is a manufacturing fault present at the point of sale. Honda needs to acknowledge this and recall the affected models before the DVSA compels them to do so.
One final point. It was clear that Honda UK are passing this problem down to the dealers rather than addressing this at the National / European level. This needs to change as the dealerships cannot absorb the repair costs and have no option but to pass it on to the customer.
This IS DEFINITELY a Honda manufacturing fault and the Brake Servo was not fit for purpose or of suitable quality at the point of sale.
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I spoke to my dealership on Friday and again this morning. I've taken advice from a local trusted garage (who also has a Jazz in for Servo repair), Which and I have reviewed the DVSA complaints process. Below is a brief resume of Fridays dealership discussion:
Thanks for the update ... I am in complete agreement that this should be recognised, and repair funded by, Honda UK - rather than individual dealers as the fault must relate to components fitted in the manufacture of the vehicles.
I understand that the brake servo units fitted to the CR-V and Jazz differ, but my dealer acknowledged that the likelihood is that both have a common component which is failing after 3 years of normal driving.
I am still awaiting a response to my email and (signed for) letter sent to the Honda dealer that I purchased my CR-V from in 2020, quoting the Consumer Rights Act 2015 - but as I live 160 miles away I have not had a face-to-face discussion!
Edited by Theophilus on 16/04/2024 at 13:17
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Still no response from the Honda dealer that sold me the CR-V but I have sent a report to the DVSA detailing my concern that "there is a serious safety fault affecting the brake servo module on Honda CR-Vs and Honda Jazz manufactured in 2020, although it appears that other years have also been affected".
I did this online at Vehicle recalls and faults.
The DVSA seem to have taken my experience seriously, asked for more details, and have contacted Honda UK giving 28 days to respond.
If the DVSA receive more reports from owners of other vehicles this will add pressure to Honda to recognise that this requires a recall, and hopefully liability for the costs of both parts and fitting will be acknowledged.
The DVSA emphasised that they do not get involved in any financial settlement, but if they receive more reports it should seriously strengthen our case for Honda UK to fully cover the costs.
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Following an email to the MD of Honda UK I received a phone call from a member of his staff to say that although my Jazz was 6 months beyond the warranty Honda were now prepared to pay the total cost of the part but I would still have to bear the labour cost, around £500. However, when I went to pick up my car on Monday of this week The dealer told me that Honda would now fund the total cost of replacement, parts and labour. It seems that Honda have now realised how much this problem is damaging their reputation.
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Following an email to the MD of Honda UK I received a phone call from a member of his staff to say that although my Jazz was 6 months beyond the warranty Honda were now prepared to pay the total cost of the part but I would still have to bear the labour cost, around £500. However, when I went to pick up my car on Monday of this week The dealer told me that Honda would now fund the total cost of replacement, parts and labour. It seems that Honda have now realised how much this problem is damaging their reputation.
It sounds very much like that Honda Motor Europe UK have had "words of wisdom" from the DVSA and modified their approach to the problem, in that it's their faulty product.
Having said that, I would be concerned that if faulty units are being replaced, are the replacement units used as replacements built to a higher/ modified standard than the original failed units?
Otherwise it just kicks the can down the road until the units fail again.
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That's great news Chris ... hopefully indicates a change of heart by Honda UK (incidentally what email address did you find for the MD?)
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The email for the Honda UK MD is:
Jean-Marc.Streng@honda-eu.com
Edited by Xileno on 30/04/2024 at 15:08
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I don't think that we should be publishing this private information, and Xileno is otherwise engaged today. I will discuss with him and we will respond.
Moderator.
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OK- perhaps a PM with the address would not be problematic.
It seems strange in this day and age that a public company would not make email contact details for senior personnel accessible, but phoning the customer support line has been totally unhelpful, just repeating the mantra that I should have taken out an extended warranty.
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I've checked and the email address is in the public domain so it's fine to post it here. I've put it back in the post.
Apparently it's on the clubjazz website and it's also here: www.ceoemail.com/
Edited by Xileno on 30/04/2024 at 15:10
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Hi Chis52, that’s an amazing result for you. I was interested to read about your success and just wondered what type of things you might have said in your email, that finally convinced them to now offer this support?
I have had this exact same problem develop in my Honda E 2020, it’s been a nightmare. It was also only around 6 months over 3 years old (fully serviced by Honda) and has been off the road for months now, whilst they sourced the part. I’ve been calling Honda 2-3 times a week, but I get a different person each time and they never follow it up. I’ve been quoted £2700 by the garage to fix it when it’s done with the same 40% reduction on the part, which leaves me with £2100.
Any help on what to write/include would be really appreciated.
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I pointed out in my email that I was aware that this fault had been recognised by Honda in Japan as being due to a manufacturing fault and that in Japan those cars affected had been subject to a recall. I said that I was also aware that a number of Honda owners in the UK were also being affected by the problem and that Honda’s response so far had not been what was expected from a company which until now had a good reputation for reliability of their cars.
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I pointed out in my email that I was aware that this fault had been recognised by Honda in Japan as being due to a manufacturing fault and that in Japan those cars affected had been subject to a recall. I said that I was also aware that a number of Honda owners in the UK were also being affected by the problem and that Honda’s response so far had not been what was expected from a company which until now had a good reputation for reliability of their cars.
T
Thanks a lot, I appreciate you replying and will feedback if I have any luck.
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I pointed out in my email that I was aware that this fault had been recognised by Honda in Japan as being due to a manufacturing fault and that in Japan those cars affected had been subject to a recall. I said that I was also aware that a number of Honda owners in the UK were also being affected by the problem and that Honda’s response so far had not been what was expected from a company which until now had a good reputation for reliability of their cars.
That's helpful Chris - the more emails the MD receives the more likely he is to become fed-up with the issue and instruct Honda UK to get on with a general recall (??)
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I pointed out in my email that I was aware that this fault had been recognised by Honda in Japan as being due to a manufacturing fault and that in Japan those cars affected had been subject to a recall. I said that I was also aware that a number of Honda owners in the UK were also being affected by the problem and that Honda’s response so far had not been what was expected from a company which until now had a good reputation for reliability of their cars.
That's helpful Chris - the more emails the MD receives the more likely he is to become fed-up with the issue and instruct Honda UK to get on with a general recall (??)
Yes that is what I am hoping Theophilus
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Honda UK Ltd hasn't existed since 2015 when it was dissolved - it is a trading name of Honda Motor Europe LTD
So you are waiting for HME to recognise that there is a problem.
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Technically correct, however the Head Office is in Bracknell and an email to the MD will get a response.
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Thought people might be interested in this.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=By0__W7GWKs
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Result - almost!
I also emailed the Honda MD and got a phone call just over a week ago from his assistant - very apologetic and promise of a cheque (but not arrived yet) repaying the total cost of the repair.
I await the arrival of the promised cheque!
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Result - almost!
I also emailed the Honda MD and got a phone call just over a week ago from his assistant - very apologetic and promise of a cheque (but not arrived yet) repaying the total cost of the repair.
I await the arrival of the promised cheque!
Slight latecomer to this important thread. My wife’s 21Reg Honda Jazz Hybrid was serviced only a few weeks ago; has only 6,000 miles on the clock; 3 year warranty expired just over a week ago . On Saturday we had an “ on the driveway” mobile repair of 2 alloy wheel trims via the insurance provided by the dealer when we purchased the car.
Minutes after the wheel repair guy departed we started the car and multiple warning lights came on. The main one flashing was the tyre deflation waning but we tried over 10 times to reset this via Settings. It kept on saying “ Failed”. We eventually phoned the garage and my wife took the car in this morning. They charged £138 just for the diagnosis ( this shocked me in any case) but then said that the car needed a new brake pedal simulator and quoted ( verbally) “ about £1750”. They didn’t even explain the additional labour costs.
We were incensed and when I went in my car to pick my wife up we explained that: a) we would eventually discuss the issue amicably but pragmatically ( = it’s what adults should do- but Honda would also have to be adult); b) we were absolutely not prepared to pay this large £ amount after only 6,000 miles ; c) we would seek and obtain technical and legal advice.
On our return home we immediately found the YouTube clip which is also mentioned earlier in this thread. Then we found this thread. We’d be very very keen to hear people’s updates. Thanks in advance ??
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There seems to be a major issue around the brake pedal simulator in Honda Jazz Hybrids . In Japan, Honda did a Recall on well over 100,000 cars but in the UK, indeed in Europe, Honda is fudging this major issue.
My wife’s Honda Jazz Hybrid is a 2021 Reg and has only 6,000 miles on the clock. It was serviced only a few weeks ago and its 3 year warranty expired only a week or so ago. On Saturday the car had an “ on our drive” mobile repair of 2 alloy wheel trims. Minutes after the repairer departed we started the car and instantly there were multiple warning symbols on the screen.
The car was checked at the dealership today ( the diagnosis itself was billed at £138 !!) and we were then told that the car needed a new brake pedal simulator which would cost around £1750. We assume that labour costs would take the actual fee to around £2,300.
There is ample written and YouTube evidence describing the major Recall by Honda in Japan. Equally, there is ample evidence that an increasing number of UK Honda Jazz and other hybrids are experiencing this selfsame brake pedal simulator problem. But with the issue being left to the dealership to resolve, very often with Honda offering an average 40% contribution to the cost of the replacement part.
However, the quintessential fact is that as clearly evidenced by the mass Recall in Japan, this is a manufacturing fault and as such it existed in each car at the time of purchase. Legally this entitles the Purchaser to a free of charge replacement for a period of up to 6 years. Honda in the UK is clearly in a dereliction of its statutory obligations. Moreover, such is the obvious and ongoing increase in Honda vehicles experiencing this manufacturing fault that Honda’s reputation will much sooner rather than later take a deserved battering.
We are about to take up the issues with the dealership and with Honda UK so any advice, sharing of experiences with the same issue would be hugely welcome. Thanks in advance.
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The legal position is that you do not have a contractual relationship with Honda Motor Europe Limited. You do have a contractual relationship with the dealer who sold you the car, they are the vendor.
Feel free to involving Honda Motor Europe in your negotiations, but the bare truth is is that it is the dealer who sold you the car who is liable in law.
Forget warranty terms and conditions, warranty is something the manufacturer gives you over and above your legal rights, if they feel like paying out.
It's worth mentioning to the vendor dealership that if you don't get a reasonable deal as regards the cost to yourself for what is now an unsafe car through no fault of yours, you will be prepared to sue them in the small claims court for the full cost to you plus whatever expenses you are allowed to claim. If they lose they will just present the claim to Honda and they will pay it without a court case because it's called something like "pass through" I forget the legal term.
You have six years to claim as the law stands at the moment.
There is no process for the vendor to claim legal expenses from you if you lose, nor can you claim legal expenses from them either.
helix-law.co.uk/what-costs-can-be-recovered-on-the.../
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Result - almost!
I also emailed the Honda MD and got a phone call just over a week ago from his assistant - very apologetic and promise of a cheque (but not arrived yet) repaying the total cost of the repair.
I await the arrival of the promised cheque!
Very pleased you got a response via the MD’s office. Our dealership today offered us the standard 40% reduction but we refused. However, after my wife spent a long time crafting a carefully worded email to the MD/CEO all 3 possible addresses failed and the email just bounced back as undeliverable.Very disappointing and we wonder if emails are now being deliberately blocked.
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The information on this thread was very helpful. My Jazz Hybrid experienced this problem and Honda offere my Dealer the standard 40% goodwill. I spoke to Honda Customer Support on 0345 20080000, making clear I was aware of the circumstances, and emphasising that this is the 6th Jazz purchased from new. Honda have now authorised full cover of parts and labour and the cost of the diagnostic testing, and arranged a courtesy hire car.
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Very pleased you got a response via the MD’s office. Our dealership today offered us the standard 40% reduction but we refused. However, after my wife spent a long time crafting a carefully worded email to the MD/CEO all 3 possible addresses failed and the email just bounced back as undeliverable.Very disappointing and we wonder if emails are now being deliberately blocked.
I did (eventually) receive a cheque from Honda reimbursing me for the full cost of parts and labour.
The email address that Honda used when replying to my correspondence was:
customer.headoffice@honda-eu.com
Don't accept anything less than 100%!
Disappointingly I have just received a reply from the DVSA (Driver & Vehicle Standards Agency) regarding my complaint that this is a major safety issue which should be the subject of a recall ... their letter to me states "DVSA do not consider that this failure meets the criteria of a safety defect. DVSA will now close your case, However we will continue to monitor this issue with the manufacturer".
If everyone who experiences this issue contacts the DVSA it will hopefully eventually result in a recall.
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Hi All
There's a great youtube video here: www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=By0__W7GWKs
There's also a good forensic study of the problem here:https://www.hondaeforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1568
Cheers
Joe
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I have always refused to be an early adopter of anything.. A policy which has worked over the past half century of rapid change.
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Hi All
There's a great youtube video here: www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=By0__W7GWKs
There's also a good forensic study of the problem here: https://www.hondaeforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1568
Cheers
Joe
That chap Dan is a diamond when compared with the car manufacturer who from all accounts have been considerably less than helpful. He's in communication with ECU testing so hopefully between them they can come up with a fix for everyone else if ECU testing can source the relevant parts.
Edited by gordonbennet on 18/09/2024 at 18:52
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What an amazing and detailed report by Dan.
Be interested to learn how many subscribers to this site would risk this intervention?
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It’s hard to believe Honda s behaviour in this matter. They could always be trusted to put customer satisfaction first and even recalled all their cars sold in the Northern Hemisphere to check and repair rust when necessary.
Perhaps Toyota philosophy to implant a member of staff in all their suppliers premises has reduced the risk of sun standard components reaching the production line ?
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