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As modern recycling 'scrap yards' exist in the UK they are already dealing with stripping down and reselling EV parts, including batteries.
https://parts.asm-autos.co.uk/find-auto-parts/make/TESLA/model/MODEL%203/category/%5BELECTRICAL%5D/
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Edited by Xileno on 20/08/2023 at 22:01
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‘ It would be interesting to see a genuine birth to grave assessment of ev v efficient petrol car in a similar class regarding overall environmental and economic cost.’ How many would you like me to share :).?
I’m delighted to read them all. You often seem annoyed that I’m not 100% sold on electric here, trust me I do believe they are the way forward for mass personal transport, I own one and I drive an electric bus regularly - when the thing works. I’m just not convinced by the economic and environmental arguments as things stand today. I’ve yet to read any comparisons of environmental impact between two similar cars including the fact that the ev will either need a replacement battery pack or early scrapping, both of which seriously damage the environmental argument. I recall fairly recently Volvo admitted that a conventional XC40 would travel (from memory) 77,000 miles before the additional environmental damage done by building an electric version was offset. Now factor in that this electric XC40 will almost certainly be scrapped 7-10yrs earlier than the petrol equivalent and this looks even worse. Feel free to post links, I will read them. But I may post counter arguments as again I feel these calculations aren’t done factoring in the much reduced lifespan of EV’s. The electric buses my firm have (I won’t name and shame) have so far proven to be hopelessly unreliable and the remainder of our tax payer funded electric bus grant money will be going to Alexander Denis I believe. I’ve driven their vehicles before and they’re pretty decent, though with a top speed of 43mph they’re a bit of a road hazard on rural runs.
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Edited by Xileno on 20/08/2023 at 21:53
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Funny how the word sc***ped is a naughty word on a motoring forum,
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It's a bit simplistic, it works on text strings rather than whole words. Same reason Sc***horpe ends up being asterisked.
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It's a bit simplistic, it works on text strings rather than whole words. Same reason Sc***horpe ends up being asterisked.
:-)
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No anger on my part, just an ongoing interest in engaging over EV’s.
The 77,000 mile figure was from a scenario whereby all electricity consumed in charging came from coal burning power stations. We’re (UK) down to c2% of our electricity from coal, so the figure is much lower. We’re typically at approximately 65% from renewables, with the balance from gas. If we were in Poland, I’d be sharing your concern.
www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when.../
Neither do I share your pessimism over battery life - they’re lasting much longer, with lower levels of degradation than initially anticipated. Given that a decent proportion of cars currently go to breakers with perfectly serviceable engines and gearboxes, EV’s will be the same - except that batteries will be pulled and either repurposed or recycled into constituent parts.
I will be a touch pessimistic on one point - the continuing presence of free to use public chargers in Scotland is thought to be off putting to charge point operators and slowing the rate of installation.
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Our current energy mix (as checked this evening) shows we have just over 44% of our electricity generated by fossil fuel and biomass, both generating similar emissions. Use of coal is tiny in the UK but sadly we are still using far too much gas in that mix. The Volvo figure was based on an average global energy mix of 60% fossil fuels so yes that figure will be lower in the UK, but not massively so. Again factor in the reduced lifespan as proven by electric vehicles to date (we have to go on current evidence and not faith) and I still don’t believe electric vehicles are as environmentally friendly as they’re being portrayed.
grid.iamkate.com/
Edited by SLO76 on 20/08/2023 at 23:38
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The 'past day' or 'past year' would be a better figure to quote, rather than an instantaneous value.
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The average age of a car when it's scrapped is about 14 years, so anything making it past that is doing well. Presumably, there are quite a few of all types significantly below.
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Edited by Xileno on 21/08/2023 at 08:52
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No doubt over the energy production figures, but, equally, they’re heading the right direction (despite the current government’s intransigence over onshore wind farms). There is a huge amount to do around power transmission, but, again, things are improving rather than regressing.
Given that the only carbon-free means of getting around is walking barefoot (shoes have a carbon intensity), there is always going an impact on the environment.
And any data published today will be out of date by tomorrow - one OEM I work for recently switched manufacturer of aluminium alloy components to one that uses exclusively hydro powered smelters.
They’ve also switched leather suppliers to one that supplies lower carbon leather. All in the quest for a net carbon zero car by 2030. And these changes are happening all over the industry.
So, data is great in showing trends (and a quick Google of ‘carbon footprint EV vs ICE’ (or similar) will bring back everything from multi-hundred page reports from academics to easily digestible articles). But it’s invariably out of date almost immediately after publication. And not in a negative sense.
China, for example, produce more solar energy than the rest of the world combined, and their renewable output is soaring, but they’re also still dependent on coal to a depressingly large degree. What I can’t currently see is what percentage of Chinese car production comes from factories powered by renewables and which from coal power.
The battery longevity is an interesting one, with very little data so far (potentially because very few batteries have reached the end of their life), but the old ‘seven years and you’ll need a new battery’ myth being exposed as so by an almost universal eight year warranty on new batteries. Again, technology is improving daily, along with range and longevity.
If anyone wants to walk barefoot, good for them. But the rest of us still need/want mobility. And that comes with an impact in one way or another. But I’m confident that EV’s already show a significantly smaller impact than burning fossil fuels, and the difference between two is increasing daily.
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A quick check on "How Many Left" reveals that of Nissan LEAFs registered in 2013 just over 70% are still taxed on UK roads.
By comparison, about 87% of Ford Focus registered in 2013 seem to still be kicking about.
The attrition rate of Mk 1 LEAFS is clearly higher than a typical Focus from the same year. I guess the question is how representative is a Mk 1 LEFA of EVs produced in the last 3 years?
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The average age is now 16yrs but that’s skewed by cars that are written-off by accidents etc. In Scotland it’s lower thanks to the climate but whenever I wonder south of the border I see loads of 20yr old plus motors on the roads and in driveways.
I doubt we’ll see any of the current crop of EV’s on the road at 16yrs plus. I hope I’m wrong though, and things certainly are improving if the Nissan Leaf forums are to be believed regarding the step up from the Mk I to Mk II, it’s still a young car though from 2018 onwards. Though the higher degradation of the Mk I 30kw compared to the smaller 24kw is a concern. Is this a flaw with the design itself or are larger batteries prone to degrade more quickly? I suspect the former.
www.asm-recycling.co.uk/blog/the-continued-growth-.../
Edited by SLO76 on 21/08/2023 at 09:42
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The degradation issue of 30Kw LEAFs is something I have also heard and I've seen enough relatively low mileage versions with a number of bars missing to think there is a problem.
I recall however there was a software upgrade as well as apparently the cars were reporting more degradation than had actually occurred?
I suspect it won't actually be batteries writing off older EVs in the future but when you look at the myriad of cameras on new cars, over the air software updates (how long before manufacturers simply "pull the plug" on older models and stop supporting them iPhone style?), the electronics and all the various things which will inevitably be added on to the MOT (i.e. collision avoidance will have to work etc.) it will be other things.
Some manufacturers can't make a reversing camera which lasts 5 years let alone Level 3 autonomous driving.
All of this applied to ICE just as much as EV.
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You still hear people say that EV batteries can't be recycled, which might have been the case 10 years ago, when there weren't many EVs around and lithium ion batteries were mostly used in small devices. At that time there wasn't a pressing need for recycling. As EVs became more popular, the time when large numbers would be scrapped was still years away. There would obviously have been a few accident write-offs or faulty batteries but not enough to support a recycling industry.
Most EVs on the roads now have been built within the last few years so they're still a long way from scrapping, but in 10 years time that will be different. The place in the video recycles 95% of the materials from batteries and all the valuable metals can be reused in new batteries.
Over the life cycle of an EV,l the reliable sources say that they do much less environmental damage than a petrol or diesel vehicle. And while battery failures do occur, there are high mileage Tesla Model S's over 10 years old still running on their original batteries (plus they have aluminium bodies, so not affected by rust). Model 3's might not be so lucky, with their steel bodywork, though!
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Edited by Xileno on 21/08/2023 at 14:42
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According to this article, there is no Li-Ion battery recycling centre in the UK and only one in continental Europe.
And, as the recyclers are not going to be working for nothing, by one estimate, the cost of recycled lithium is five times that of virgin lithium from brine-mining.
watt-logic.com/2023/08/20/electric-cars-are-not-cl.../
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According to this article, there is no Li-Ion battery recycling centre in the UK and only one in continental Europe.
And, as the recyclers are not going to be working for nothing, by one estimate, the cost of recycled lithium is five times that of virgin lithium from brine-mining.
watt-logic.com/2023/08/20/electric-cars-are-not-cl.../
There's a Li-ion recycling plant in Wolverhampton...
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According to this article, there is no Li-Ion battery recycling centre in the UK and only one in continental Europe.
And, as the recyclers are not going to be working for nothing, by one estimate, the cost of recycled lithium is five times that of virgin lithium from brine-mining.
watt-logic.com/2023/08/20/electric-cars-are-not-cl.../
There's a Li-ion recycling plant in Wolverhampton...
This one:
Wolverhampton industrial-scale battery recycling plant opens - BBC News
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Assuming a 10 year life of an EV (very low IMHO) a crude estimate of EVs sc***ped in 2023 would be equal to sales of EVs in 2013 of below 4000 units.
This compares with ~2.5m ICE cars scrapped - over 600 times as many.
It is no surprise recycling of EVs is currently questionable - volumes are far too low to be economic, processes have yet to be properly developed.
The real question is what happens in 20 years time when the volume of EVs scrapped will approach those of ICE at present. All a bit of guesswork - but the reality will almost certainly be very, very different to current situation.
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Edited by Xileno on 22/08/2023 at 07:30
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Assuming a 10 year life of an EV (very low IMHO) a crude estimate of EVs sc***ped in 2023 would be equal to sales of EVs in 2013 of below 4000 units.
This compares with ~2.5m ICE cars sc***ped - over 600 times as many.
It is no surprise recycling of EVs is currently questionable - volumes are far too low to be economic, processes have yet to be properly developed.
The real question is what happens in 20 years time when the volume of EVs sc***ped will approach those of ICE at present. All a bit of guesswork - but the reality will almost certainly be very, very different to current situation.
The accounts of this company to July 2022 look grim, posting a 2 million loss.
Notes in the accounts about raising finance etc.
Somewhat supports your view Terry. Like most industrial operations it's all about scale.
The more you do the cheaper it gets to do it etc.
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Are there independent studies of birth to grave impact if cars ev and ice somewhere?
Seems like what out there is mostly by car makers (Mazda, Volvo etc').
Since the diesel cheat of the last decade and the wave of promoted automotive research produced by the like of VAG I take a lot of salt with my reading.
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Lots of independent, academic studies out there. Here’s one example - www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/20...f
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