From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 10:59
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - _

We had this a while back on the A12 near us. It is scary with the potential of a combined speed crash of 70 ish MPH meets 70+ MPH head on.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/14/frightening-...s

Edited by _ORB_ on 14/08/2023 at 11:00

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 13:10
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Engineer Andy

Seen essentially the same reported in the Telegraph today. Too many people relying soley on satnav and not partial;ly at least on their driving awareness and common sense, plus, I fear, more OAPs using sat navs - and frankly their cars in general - when they no longer have the skill or awareness to know the difference between a slip on and a slip off at a motroway or dual carraigaeway roundabout, or to spot a one way sign on a rural slip on to a dual carraigeway.

One nasty (and fatal) incident my way on that type of road where the eldery gent came out of the slip road from a petrol station and turned right into the traffic on the local dual carriageway - at night. It's actually quite hard to do this (decent slip on and well signposted), which shows why this gent should not have got 'confsued' and driven the wrong way.

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 13:28
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - barney100

Another ageist post. Ageism is as bad as racism.

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 16:14
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Andrew-T

Another ageist post. Ageism is as bad as racism.

Second that. I don't think these new stats indicate an age-distribution skewed upwards - and alcohol was a factor in some of the incidents.

I am in my mid-80s and can distinguish between on- and off- slip roads, and I would hope most of my contemporaries could too. Of course some elderly drivers will suffer from demential symptoms, but at the other end of the scale there are drivers like a contemporary of my parents, who drove to southern France every summer until he was 100.

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 17:38
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Engineer Andy

Another ageist post. Ageism is as bad as racism.

Second that. I don't think these new stats indicate an age-distribution skewed upwards - and alcohol was a factor in some of the incidents.

I am in my mid-80s and can distinguish between on- and off- slip roads, and I would hope most of my contemporaries could too. Of course some elderly drivers will suffer from demential symptoms, but at the other end of the scale there are drivers like a contemporary of my parents, who drove to southern France every summer until he was 100.

My post wasn't ageist, but factual and referring to a local incident, and I resent (yet again) being called some ist or phoibe by certain 'regulars' who appear to think that any shade of opinion other than their own is somehow extermist and should be deleted and the person's account removed or ostracised on this forum.

((Sigh))

At no point did I say that a majority or all older drivers do this, but is a fact that most such incident feature older drivers, precisely because of the higher likelihood of confusion. I just recalled a local OAP driving onto a local 'large' roundabout (with for road exists) but anticlockwise, getting all confused, stopping for a minute then driving round the corner back home. In broad daylight in good weather with decent signage.

I somewhow doubt if that sort of middle aged or younger driver would do that unless they had some serious congitive issue. As you say, sometimes people can be on the ball to very old age, but my point is that the older you get, the higher likelihood of such things happening because of cognitive degradation. I am actually concerned that my own dad may be on that downward path.

I am ageist if I say that most dangerous driving / fatal accident by age group are young (inexperienced) drivers? No - just factual. By mileage, serious fault accidents may start to include far more older drivers. Again, fact.

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 18:30
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Xileno

I've never had any feeling that Andy is ageist, however I think his second post does give context to explain the first.

We need to know number of accidents broken down by age group and mileage covered. Not sure if such data is in the public domain, insurance industry is bound to have it.

Edited by Xileno on 14/08/2023 at 18:31

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 22:42
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - HGV ~ P Valentine

People like to hide behiond a "ish" to divert from the real issue. Your article/reply is totally right.

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Wed 16 Aug 2023 15:09
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Andrew-T

<< My post wasn't ageist, but factual and referring to a local incident, >>

The second half of your post referred to a local incident ; the first part concentrated on suggesting that older drivers using their satnav inexpertly were a likely cause.

<< I resent (yet again) being called some ist or phobe by certain 'regulars' >>

You were not called ageist, your post was. Not quite the same.

<< At no point did I say that a majority or all older drivers do this, >>

It is a feeble defence to claim that having omitted the word 'majority' it is somehow OK.

<< it is a fact that most such incidents feature older drivers, precisely because of the higher likelihood of confusion. >>

Proof ? Whose 'fact' ? Of course dementia and similar failings are a feature of old age, but in the context of wrong-way driving on motorways not necessarily the usual explanation.

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Wed 16 Aug 2023 16:30
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Engineer Andy

<< My post wasn't ageist, but factual and referring to a local incident, >>

The second half of your post referred to a local incident ; the first part concentrated on suggesting that older drivers using their satnav inexpertly were a likely cause.

<< I resent (yet again) being called some ist or phobe by certain 'regulars' >>

You were not called ageist, your post was. Not quite the same.

Splitting hairs rather thinly there, I think.

<< At no point did I say that a majority or all older drivers do this, >>

It is a feeble defence to claim that having omitted the word 'majority' it is somehow OK.

<< it is a fact that most such incidents feature older drivers, precisely because of the higher likelihood of confusion. >>

Proof ? Whose 'fact' ? Of course dementia and similar failings are a feature of old age, but in the context of wrong-way driving on motorways not necessarily the usual explanation.

How often do you read a newspaper report or see a local TV report that says this happened to a young or middle-aged person? At best, such people will blindly follow their satnav's directions down 'the wrong' road' and end up at a cliff face, some other dead end of obviously the wrong direction.

Every instance I've heard of regarding the far more dangerous (unitentionally, differentiating between that an an intenbtional act of a criminal evading the police) going the wrong way down a dual carraigeway or motorway (especially at night) - and sadly there has been a lot over the past few years, increasing as more people have in-built satnavs, is older people.

Again - for the record - I do not believe that ALL or even a majority of older people do this, but as cognative abilities deteriorate with age (at variable rates), so obviously will the ability to judge the road environment, conditions and manage / operate the tech on board, because each younger generation grows up with the latest tech, this also makes using it easier for them, plus many older folk (my dad included) didn't get to grips with computer tech earlier in life and find it hard to learn (old dog, new tricks) - much to their frustration.

The combination of this and other factors such as getting tired (physically and mentally) more quickly, unresolved sight issues (see next one) often, as others have said, with a stubborness to 'keep driving' well beyond the time they should is, in my view, a receipe for disaster.

I have no problem with those (of ANY age) who can demonstrate adequate ability to operate their vehicle in any reasonable time or condition using it. Sometimes that does mean reducing what you can do driving-wise if you realise you're not up to - say - driving at night or for longer than an hour. My mum recently gave up driving and my dad is now not doing longer trips.

Just for information, my dad worked in insurance for all of his working life, so he knows quite a bit about who claims for what and risk, even if he doesn't always look at his own driving behaviour quite so objectively.

I suspect you are taking this personally precisely because you are in that age group as well as me mostly being on the other side of debates of a political nature. You shouldn't, as I'm not having a go at older folk or trying to force them or you to give up driving. Only for people to keep an eye on their own driving behaviour, and to be objective as to when they should reduce their driving activities and when to stop altogether.

I realise doing that is a big step, as being independently mobile is a big factor in keeping active and in touch later in life. Unfortunately, some times the body says 'no' well before the mind realises. That's why trusting of family and friends to be honest, objective and reasonable is paramount, as it's in everyone's best interests.

I don't want anyone - my dad or you included, to end up as these unfortunates have, or, more importantly, for someone to stubbornly keep driving when they should, whereby they cause an accident that kills or seriously injures innocents - ruining more than just the life of the driver at fault.

That's hardly unreasonable, is it?

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Wed 16 Aug 2023 16:57
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - _

Quote (That's hardly unreasonable, is it?) unquote.

If I may say so a very reasoned post.

I hope that I will have the wisdom to listen to Dr youngrovergirl if she comments.

I have no wish to stand in front of a magistrate or judge having caused injury or worse to another.

Edited by _ORB_ on 16/08/2023 at 16:58

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Wed 16 Aug 2023 17:19
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Andrew-T

<< I suspect you are taking this personally precisely because you are in that age group as well as me mostly being on the other side of debates of a political nature >>

Everyone is entitled to their suspicions, however unfounded. Knowing my age, you would never accept that I am not taking it personally, just speaking up for an age-group different from yours. And I hadn't noticed any political element anywhere in this thread, tho I am not surprised that you might try to introduce one :-)

Anyhow, I will never stand accused of dumbly following a sat-nav, as neither of our cars has one, and I still prefer a 'proper' road atlas, doing a bit of homework before I venture onto an unfamiliar route. I willingly recognise that they are indispensable for delivery drivers and the like, but I am well past that kind of activity.

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Wed 23 Aug 2023 08:57
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - barney100

The original post has many faults, generalisation is one. 'Elderly people' should not be driving, when does elderly start? To put all older drivers in the same group is ridiculous, many older people are very sharp in their minds and quite capable of driving safely. Generalisation has long been regarded as poor reasoning.

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 22:39
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - HGV ~ P Valentine

I think it is ridiculious that a 99 year old is healthy enough to safely operate a vehicle, I bet you I could have pointed out more then several things on a test drive that wouild convince me he should no longer drive.for example

1 . Was his eyesight still good enough

2 . If someone pulls out in front of him, could he react quick enough to avoid a collision.

3 . How long could he concentrate without getting too tired to drive.

4 . Does he get close to the speed limit or cause a mobile road block on country lanes, or where the speed limit is 60.

5 . How much of the highway code does he know ? Could he pass even 20 questions I could ask him. or for that matter the national theory test, which will be easier because unlike that test I wont give him the answer.

6 . Can he spot trouble, before it becomes a problem ?

Ps if the friend is a female replace he with her.

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Wed 16 Aug 2023 15:20
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Andrew-T

I think it is ridiculous that a 99 year old is healthy enough to safely operate a vehicle, I bet you I could have pointed out more then several things on a test drive that would convince me he should no longer drive.for example.

Referring to 'le centenaire' who drove from Luton to Provence every summer to visit his son, he took his time, staying overnight once or twice en route, and using only RN roads, not the péage, because he knew France well, having lived there for several years after the war. I met him when he was about 98, and he was hale and hearty, but I didn't witness his driving. It may seem 'ridiculous' but some people just age gracefully ... :-)

Anyhow, what age would you suggest that all drivers should stop ? :-))

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 22:31
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - HGV ~ P Valentine

How is moaning about an iriot going the wrong way being ageist ? There are too many old people on the road who should have given up driving a long time ago, and not because they are old but because they are no longer able to drive, safely.

deleted People do not want them on the road because they are dangerious.

You offend me with such comments.

No need to refer to another forum member in that way even if you strongly disagree with them. Mod

Edited by _ORB_ on 16/08/2023 at 17:29

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Wed 16 Aug 2023 17:29
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Andrew-T

There are too many old people on the road who should have given up driving a long time ago, and not because they are old but because they are no longer able to drive, safely. People do not want them on the road because they are dangerous.

Correction - people do not want dangerous drivers on the road, of whatever age. Some dangerous young drivers can present a greater hazard than most OAPs. I suggest your comments sound much more ageist than Andy's ?

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 13:22
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Metropolis.
I am not sure sat navs could be to blame, unless the sat nav is hopelessly out of date and the motorway junction has changed drastically?

Must be very unnerving to see a car coming toward you head on.

It does remind me of a good film however, was it vanishing point? Would rather not repeat that in real life though..
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Mon 14 Aug 2023 13:24
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - sammy1

I would hazard a guess at the increasing number of lawless people escaping the police. The drink drivers the old people who get lost when 100 yards from home, Foreigners who drive on the other side and forget. Those high on drugs or prescips. Confusion at roundabouts and poor road signs. Some driving some 20 miles or more at night, we had a recent case on the M4. The brazen who do commit this crime get little punishment .

Edited

MOD

Edited by _ORB_ on 14/08/2023 at 13:46

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 13:47
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - FP

Sammy wrote: "I trust suitable research was done before posting this link, you cannot it seems take anything at face value as it upsets some especially coming from the wrong side of the political spectrum."

If you think there is something wrong with the story linked to and/or credibility of the source of the story please say so. Otherwise your comment just seems to be a bit of sour grapes concerning what was posted in another thread.

P.S. Apologies for any confusion. I see the post I was replying to has been edited by the mods.

Edited by FP on 14/08/2023 at 13:49

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 13:41
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - FP

I read this story too and came to the conclusion that it's not the fault of satnavs. More likely, some drivers do not interpret their satnav's instructions properly.

For example, where a dual carriageway meets a roundabout, there will be (for drivers on the roundabout) an exit on to the correct carriageway and an entrance from the other carriageway. When the satnav's instruction is to take the second exit or whatever, I'm thinking some drivers are counting "openings" on to the roundabout, not "exits".

However, even if that is what actually happens, it requires a pretty bizarre bit of steering to join the wrong carriageway and people who do not realise at that point they are doing something wrong really shouldn't be driving.

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 14:21
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - gordonbennet

People should not be following the instructions of some peice of electronics stuck in or on their dashboard.

A satnav is a superb pocket sized street map of the country(ies) programmed in, it should be used to confirm a route already chosen by the driver, its a brilliant bit of kit for spotting roads lacking signage and for honing in the last few miles in a strange area...what it should not be is directing a human being where to go, that's why huge artics end up wedged in lanes and hamlets barely navigable by Landrover because the driver trusted a piece of electronic junk.

Thankfully in all my years i'm yet to find someone coming at me on a motorway or dual carriageway.

Once again i'm of the opinion that cars lacking good outward visibility have a bearing on this problem.

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Wed 23 Aug 2023 18:43
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Manatee

>>what it should not be is directing a human being where to go,

I think that horse has bolted. I drove from west Herts to Cromer and back yesterday. I could have found my way there unaided, but I followed Waze for the most part because it knows where the congestion is.

I did overrule it a couple of times.

Of course a large goods vehicle or a caravan outfit is a different case.

I still see the technology as near-miraculous even without route planning. The amazing bit is having a map with a dot on it at your location! Pre-GPS, vast amounts of time were wasted trying to work out where we were.

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 14:32
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - sammy1

No sour grapes on my part and mod has sense of humour failure! Nothing to do with you.

"""However, even if that is what actually happens, it requires a pretty bizarre bit of steering to join the wrong carriageway and people who do not realise at that point they are doing something wrong really shouldn't be driving."""

Sometimes the road layout themselves are confusing. Take junction 27 M4 The slip road does a complete u turn on itself it goes back under the mway roundabout instead of as you might imagine away from the roundabout totally confusing any sense of direction you may have.

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 16:22
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Andrew-T

No sour grapes on my part and mod has sense of humour failure! Nothing to do with you.

From where I sit, Sammy, I cannot tell when your own 'sense of humour' is active, because you make no attempt to help us. All we can see is plain text on a screen, which (if we make the effort) we have to interpret as serious, humorous or facetious, because you refuse to add any emoticons. As long as that continues, so will our uncertainty.

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Mon 14 Aug 2023 22:09
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Bromptonaut

Sometimes the road layout themselves are confusing. Take junction 27 M4 The slip road does a complete u turn on itself it goes back under the mway roundabout instead of as you might imagine away from the roundabout totally confusing any sense of direction you may have.

I agree that some road layouts are confusing but High Cross interchange is like a lot of older junctions with tight turns.

M1 J6 going south and M6 J15 going north are just a couple of other examples.

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Tue 15 Aug 2023 03:46
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - expat

Another problem is people used to driving on the left going to the continent and accidentally going on the wrong side of the road. A Swiss friend of ours told us it happens every year. The opposite also happens with continental visitors to left hand drive countries. Two incidents of tourist accidents reported in the UK press recently. They do not say they were on the wrong side of the road but I think that may be a possibility.

news.stv.tv/highlands-islands/american-and-german-...9

I know that many people drive safely in foreign countries and many of them are on this forum however I would never do it myself. I have to even take great care when walking across the road in foreign countries.

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Tue 15 Aug 2023 09:54
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Bromptonaut

Another problem is people used to driving on the left going to the continent and accidentally going on the wrong side of the road.

I've been caught out occasionally, usually after a stop;easy to drive on left of a lane.

Oddly, the only times I've experienced other foreigners getting it wrong they were from countries that drive on the right. Swiss wrong way on French roundabout and Dutch guy in a one way system between viewpoints in rural France.

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Sat 19 Aug 2023 22:17
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Metropolis.
Interesting. I wonder if it is because driving on the left side of the road is actually more natural, with a right-eye and right-hand bias on most humans. Is it a myth that Napoleon had an influence being left handed or is there some truth to that?
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Sun 20 Aug 2023 11:35
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Engineer Andy
Interesting. I wonder if it is because driving on the left side of the road is actually more natural, with a right-eye and right-hand bias on most humans. Is it a myth that Napoleon had an influence being left handed or is there some truth to that?

I suspect it has as much to do with the French (and some other nations) top dogs (as they still do) having a bee in their bonnet about the British and just doings things another way 'just because' we do it in some fashion, and sour grapes after we bested them in several battles / wars.

One of the theories put forward as to why we drive on the left is very reasonable, in that in the times of old (well before any mechanised transport), it was decided that riders on horseback ride on the left so that knights / soldiers could more easily use their swords to attack oncomers using - as you say - their favoured side for gripping it.

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Sun 20 Aug 2023 22:00
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - alan1302

One of the theories put forward as to why we drive on the left is very reasonable, in that in the times of old (well before any mechanised transport), it was decided that riders on horseback ride on the left so that knights / soldiers could more easily use their swords to attack oncomers using - as you say - their favoured side for gripping it.

If that is true though, why do the majority of countries not drive on the left?

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Tue 22 Aug 2023 12:34
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Engineer Andy

One of the theories put forward as to why we drive on the left is very reasonable, in that in the times of old (well before any mechanised transport), it was decided that riders on horseback ride on the left so that knights / soldiers could more easily use their swords to attack oncomers using - as you say - their favoured side for gripping it.

If that is true though, why do the majority of countries not drive on the left?

See my other comment.

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Tue 22 Aug 2023 13:17
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - alan1302

One of the theories put forward as to why we drive on the left is very reasonable, in that in the times of old (well before any mechanised transport), it was decided that riders on horseback ride on the left so that knights / soldiers could more easily use their swords to attack oncomers using - as you say - their favoured side for gripping it.

If that is true though, why do the majority of countries not drive on the left?

See my other comment.

Ah, going with that...some countries used to drive on the left and changed to driving on the right...can't see that they did that because of some 'beef' with the UK.

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Tue 22 Aug 2023 13:59
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Bromptonaut

Ah, going with that...some countries used to drive on the left and changed to driving on the right...can't see that they did that because of some 'beef' with the UK.

There are varying accounts as to why countries moved away from riding on the left with sword or whatever to hand to travelling on the right.

Napoleon Bonaparte is said to have decreed it to be that way but because much larger vehicles, with multiple horses, were replacing simple carts. Driver's visibility and need to keep the whip hand free are amongst the reasons given,

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Tue 22 Aug 2023 21:30
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - alan1302

Ah, going with that...some countries used to drive on the left and changed to driving on the right...can't see that they did that because of some 'beef' with the UK.

There are varying accounts as to why countries moved away from riding on the left with sword or whatever to hand to travelling on the right.

Napoleon Bonaparte is said to have decreed it to be that way but because much larger vehicles, with multiple horses, were replacing simple carts. Driver's visibility and need to keep the whip hand free are amongst the reasons given,

I'd rather go with that thought than because France didn't like the UK they drive on the otherside of the road...more logical. I expect it's one of things we may never know the real answer to and is lost in the mists of time.

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Wed 23 Aug 2023 06:46
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - _

I'd rather go with that thought than because France didn't like the UK they drive on the otherside of the road...more logical. I expect it's one of things we may never know the real answer to and is lost in the mists of time.

As I used to joke with my (first) French mother in law, You have never forgiven us for Aziincourt.....

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Tue 15 Aug 2023 10:01
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - Andrew-T

Sometimes the road layout themselves are confusing. Take junction 27 M4 The slip road does a complete u turn on itself it goes back under the mway roundabout instead of as you might imagine away from the roundabout ...

The north-side roundabout at J12 on the M56 was remodelled and enlarged a few years ago with a full set of traffic lights. Approaching from the A56 heading for Manchester (i.e. turning right) one has to counter-intuitively join the leftmost lane - actually a short slip road - and wait for the green. Everything works smoothly and is (mostly) well signed.

Of course there are quite a few junctions where it is necessary to slip off left and wait for a green to cross the main flow. Commoner on the continent I believe.

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Sat 19 Aug 2023 22:03
From the Guardian Frightening wrong ways - On Motorways - daveyjp

Not only motorways, I was southbound on the A9 today approaching the exit to Killiecrankie which due to the main road speed is a sweeping off lane.

Coming the wrong way towards the main road was a car. Thankfully nothing was exiting and my horn and lights flash alerted him to his error as I saw the reverse lights go on.

I suspect a non UK driver in a hire car simply forgetting to drive on the left.

I almost saw another accident on Skye with a driver who turned right, but into right hand, not the left hand lane of the road to Carbost.

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