ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 05:30
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - edlithgow

www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/driving/2023-08/governme.../

I have a preview of this, since the motorways here (ironically called "Freeways") in Taiwan are charged.

Accordingly, when my car was actually running, I didnt use them, other than for purely local journeys below the charging distance threshold.

This has the effect of decreasing safety, and increasing wear and tear, and pollution. though most locals, being less skint and stingy, probably arent deterred.

Apparently the UK is considering extending ULEZ charges to the motorway network, to keep older vehicles off them.

If effective, this will transfer pollution from the motorway network, where its local health effects will be minimal, to "free" B roads in built up areas, where they will be greater.

Slight edit.in title to clarify

ORB

Edited by _ORB_ on 10/08/2023 at 06:20

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 06:22
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - _

So when we are all paying per mile, I think EVERYwhere will get charged in the end, not just M'ways.

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 06:36
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - badbusdriver

So when we are all paying per mile, I think EVERYwhere will get charged in the end, not just M'ways.

Can's see that happening. Maybe all motorways and A roads, but not every road?

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 07:36
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Metropolis.
It is possible BBD, just think of the LTNs in residential areas, easy to imagine them installing a toll to allow people to drive through..

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 08:55
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Sofa Spud

We have a simple system of charging 'per mile' already. Fuel duty. If the government want motorists to pay more, then they could just increase fuel duty. Charging for motorway use would deter people from using them, making non-motorway alternative routes busier. Increasing fuel duty would also encourage people to drive more economical cars.

I'm not saying we should be paying more to drive, I don;t want to pay more. But if we have to, increasing fuel duty is the best way to do that.

What about electric cars, then? If cars are charged at home, then it's difficult to differentiate between the domestic electricity consumption and that used to charge the car. So maybe there could be an app that registers the number of kilowatt-hours consumed by the car in use, retrospectively.

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 09:12
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - edlithgow

We have a simple system of charging 'per mile' already. Fuel duty. If the government want motorists to pay more, then they could just increase fuel duty. Charging for motorway use would deter people from using them, making non-motorway alternative routes busier. Increasing fuel duty would also encourage people to drive more economical cars.

I'm not saying we should be paying more to drive, I don;t want to pay more. But if we have to, increasing fuel duty is the best way to do that.

What about electric cars, then? If cars are charged at home, then it's difficult to differentiate between the domestic electricity consumption and that used to charge the car. So maybe there could be an app that registers the number of kilowatt-hours consumed by the car in use, retrospectively.

I always thought that road tax should be abolished and any revenue shortfall transferred to fuel duty, and IIRC this was Labour Party policy for a while, though of course never implemented.

Wouldn't work as a specific deterrent to using the "Strategic Road Network" (as that article has it) which is the objective here, though using a ULEZ extension for it specifically conflicts with the ULEZ original stated purpose.

As you point out, it'd need a specific monitoring technique for electric cars, which removes the simplicity.

Edited by edlithgow on 10/08/2023 at 09:23

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 09:35
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - bathtub tom

Increasing fuel duty would also encourage people to drive more economical cars.

I reckon most people have no interest in fuel economy and just drive. Look at the number of folk that fill up at motorway service stations. When I talk to friends and acquaintances, they seem to have no clue about economy and economical driving. Ask about tyre pressures and they'll think they're checked at servicing.

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 09:13
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Andrew-T

So when we are all paying per mile, I think EVERYwhere will get charged in the end, not just M'ways.

If/when that happens, it will equate to a second tax on fuel, so it may as well be there to begin with. And some people may even revert to trying to drive more economically :-)

Of course the sums are a bit different for EVs .... [ as said above by Spud ]

Edited by Andrew-T on 10/08/2023 at 09:15

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 09:16
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - edlithgow

Doesnt bother me much, but AFAICT a ULEZ extension to motorways, as proposed, wouldn't be Drive-per-mile, so my original "Motorway Charging" title (IIRC) was more appropriate.

Maybe "Paying to use the motorway" in case of confusion with charging your electric vehicle in a motorway service station?

Edited by edlithgow on 10/08/2023 at 09:19

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 09:49
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - sammy1

Doesnt bother me much, but AFAICT a ULEZ extension to motorways, as proposed, wouldn't be Drive-per-mile, so my original "Motorway Charging" title (IIRC) was more appropriate.

Maybe "Paying to use the motorway" in case of confusion with charging your electric vehicle in a motorway service station?

Here in Wales, remember that outpost in the UK, you may soon have to leave home with a packed lunch just to go to the corner shop such is the archaic road planning here. Many already avoid our only motorway as it is it was quicker on the A and B roads soon to be negated.. Pay to use the M4 well only if picnic sites are provided FOC. Millions live in a democracy, you vote, a limited few obtain power, you have the obligatory opposition and perhaps one person dictates what the policy will be. You were never asked. Oh and then you put up with it. Crazy!!

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 10:16
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - John F

Fairest system is pay by mile for all roads and all vehicles - those with a kerb weight more than say 1500kg pay more. Easily done by linking mileage info to the MoT and instituting an annual mileage declaration on the VED renewal form for random cross checking by a suitably programmed AI computer.

Apparently only a quarter of vehicle and fuel tax is spent on roads. This is unfair. Increasing other taxes might focus the population's minds more on how much government spending there is on other things.....

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 04:09
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - edlithgow

General road charging (and...er.. taxing second homes, and...er...subsidising buses or not, and...er...privatising the NHS, and ...er...being or not being a Communist...etc. Not sure about tyre drilling) wouldn't address the alleged problem in the article I linked to, which was, specific and selective overloading of the "strategic road network"

I suppose if they are calling it a strategic road network" they might want to give priority to commercial vehicles, though Andrex salesmen in whatever the current equivalent of Vauxhall Vectras is might be in a grey area.

I'd guess they are (or were. might pre-date the recent byelection results) proposing a ULEZ extension to the motorways because ULEZ already exists so the law, technology and some grudging partial public acceptance is already on-the-shelf.

The rather obvious fact that a ULEZ extension to motorways directly conflicts with the alleged environmental and public health objectives of a ULEZ does rather reek of cynical and hypocritical political opportunism, which was, like, my point.

But I suppose cynical and hypocritical political opportunism isn't much of a surprise to anyone.

(PS Y'all can call me a Communist/Socialist anytime you like.

I'm not a Communist, but I might aspire to be one, like some people aspire to be Christians.)

Edited by edlithgow on 12/08/2023 at 04:21

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 10:35
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Terry W

Increasing fuel duties and getting rid of VED would have been a possible strategy before EVs appeared. It does not work for EVs and a different technology is required.

Technology has also evolved rapidly and is now cheap to implement - number plate recognition, sat nav connectivity, charging systems etc.

The solution depends on what problem(s) the government wants to solve and fit the charging solution around that.

Building more road capacity is an unlikely policy (a few very specific projects excepted) - modifying vehicle use to meet capacity constraints seems far more likely.

  • reduce congestion at peak times
  • encourage use of smaller more economical vehicles
  • reduce private car use in towns, increase public transport
  • ensure the needs of more rural dwellers are met
  • prioritise business and freight movements
  • increase the absolute level of tax charged on private vehicles

It could be pay per mile for all miles, pay per mile for motorways and trunk roads, pay by time of travel, pay by size of vehicle, pay by number of empty seats, a mix of some/all factors etc etc.

Fuel duties and motoring taxes are 4% of government tax revenues. Income tax and NI are 42%, VAT 16%, council tax 8%. If the concern is the level of tax, making a big deal out of motoring taxes is to entirely miss the point - they are trivial overall!

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 13:18
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - movilogo

We have a simple system of charging 'per mile' already. Fuel duty.

Yes, but government never turns away options to tax twice. IHT is another example.

They will tax breathing too - if they can get away with it.

This may also clog A roads more, where people can avoid paying for motorway driving.

Edited by movilogo on 10/08/2023 at 13:19

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 13:54
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Andrew-T

<< ... government never turns away options to tax twice. IHT is another example. They will tax breathing too - if they can get away with it. >>.

Since you clearly detest the whole idea of paying tax, perhaps you could refuse to co-operate, agreeing of course to forgo all rights to anything provided out of the common purse ? Like roads, health, police, emergency services ...

But we all know that most of those things are inadequate. Maybe not enough tax is being taken ? Or is it just being frittered away ?

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 14:31
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - movilogo

detest the whole idea of paying tax

I didn't say I detest idea of paying tax, but I detest idea of paying tax twice for same thing!

We pay tax on income. So IHT is unfair.

We pay fuel duty i.e. pay per mile, so another pay per mile is unfair.

If NHS is privatized then OK by me as long as those going private don't pay NI anymore.

Extra council tax on second home - why? People pay extra stamp duty while buying 2nd property.

I admit it is difficult to agree on a fair tax scheme. What % of tax you think fare?

But I do think taxing twice is grossly unfair.

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 15:01
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - sammy1

""Extra council tax on second home - why? People pay extra stamp duty while buying 2nd property.""

This must surely be the grossest tax of all time if really legal. Happening in Wales at this very moment. People have bought holiday homes all over the UK for their own pleasure and some as business to rent both privately as landlords. Why tax this again It only means that unless the second home is sold the additional tax will be passed on either to a tenant who desperately needs a home or a holiday maker already facing high rentals. People with money are being dragged to the bottom with the rest. I do NOT have a second home, like many I struggle with just one but people must be free to do as they like with their money after taxation without taken more hits.

To get back to Mways not worth it in the UK and in any case how would you separate the Welsh DVLA traffic from the rest as Wales seems to have control of its bit of the M4 yet all the VED goes to central. The whole VED system neds a revamp it is discriminatory as discussed many times.

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 17:44
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Andrew-T

People have bought holiday homes all over the UK for their own pleasure.

Exactly so. Occasionally those buyers are preventing locals from getting a home, especially by pushing the price up. But historically govts have always found taxing people's pleasure is an effective way to raise money. Perhaps recreational drugs could be legalised and taxed just like tobacco or alcohol ? That should work ....

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 22:09
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - alan1302

Why tax this again It only means that unless the second home is sold the additional tax will be passed on either to a tenant who desperately needs a home or a holiday maker already facing high rentals.

If people were not buying up the homes then maybe that person could afford to buy the home rather than rent it? A load of council homes have been sold off and primate rents are soaring in cost - but it does not affect you so why would you care that people are struggling to get housing when you would rather people wanting 2nd homes are not taxed more?

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 22:59
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - sammy1

Why tax this again It only means that unless the second home is sold the additional tax will be passed on either to a tenant who desperately needs a home or a holiday maker already facing high rentals.

If people were not buying up the homes then maybe that person could afford to buy the home rather than rent it? A load of council homes have been sold off and primate rents are soaring in cost - but it does not affect you so why would you care that people are struggling to get housing when you would rather people wanting 2nd homes are not taxed more?

So private landlords who own a very large percentage of private houses and flats should not be allowed because people cannot afford to buy. This has been the case for ever indeed some do NOT want to buy. There is no need to mention " you " that is if you mean me. The buy to let market is a valid investment for some and second homes exist all over the country not just Wales.. The fact that there are not enough homes is Gov local GOV and builders problem not mine. People seeking affordable homes have my sympathy. I have grand children soon to mature to this sorry mess.

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 17:39
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Andrew-T

<< We pay tax on income. So IHT is unfair.

What % of tax you think fair? But I do think taxing twice is grossly unfair. >>

You can argue that taxation is unfair when it fails to tax adequately those really high earners who 'pocket' ludicrously high income. Those people can afford to pay for stashing their lucre out of reach of the UK taxman, but I think their inflated income is what is 'unfair', not the taxation system as such. I don't accept the argument that when your income has been taxed once it should never be taxed again, which you seem to suggest.

Several taxes are there to persuade people not to smoke or drink heavily (for example) and perhaps to persuade them to make do with one home rather than 2 or 3. You can of course argue that those persuasions don't work, which may reinforce your objection to double taxation.

Essentially the tax system should be able to cover the cost of providing the services the public expect or demand, which it doesn't just now, So the govt has to run up the national debt, which I suppose is getting us to lend them cash rather than taking it for good ?

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Fri 11 Aug 2023 09:40
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - _

Some comments deleted.

Keep it on topic.

Mod.

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Fri 11 Aug 2023 11:51
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Sparrow

reduce private car use in towns, increase public transport

That's a great idea. Round here though (Andover) the county council has voted to end subsidy for bus services to the surrounding villages. The bus operator has decided that without the subsidy it is uneconomic, and is ceasing the busses. No joined up thinking at all. Car travel increased, more pollution. Elderly people more housebound. We despair.

Edited by Sparrow on 11/08/2023 at 11:53

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Fri 11 Aug 2023 12:11
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - sammy1

reduce private car use in towns, increase public transport

That's a great idea. Round here though (Andover) the county council has voted to end subsidy for bus services to the surrounding villages. The bus operator has decided that without the subsidy it is uneconomic, and is ceasing the busses. No joined up thinking at all. Car travel increased, more pollution. Elderly people more housebound. We despair.

Same here in Wales most of which is rural. A city like Cardiff where you think it might be economical to rub bus routes is cutting some routes. If you are a shift worker for instance in any part of Wales you have no chance with public transport.

To go back to drive per mile this might be fairer providing other taxes are taken OFF cars, other wise if introduced will be a burden on freedom of movement for many

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Fri 11 Aug 2023 13:12
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - movilogo

London day travelcard is now £15 - same price as of congestion charge.

So if more than 1 person travelling, travelling by car is cheaper (provided you have a place to park in London).

Public transport supposed to be cheap.

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Fri 11 Aug 2023 13:26
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - _

London day travelcard is now £15 - same price as of congestion charge.

So if more than 1 person travelling, travelling by car is cheaper (provided you have a place to park in London).

Public transport supposed to be cheap.

That is for a huge 6 zone travelcard, tubes, elizabeth line and buses.

Bus only daily cap £5.25

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Fri 11 Aug 2023 14:11
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - madf

Public transport: a 10 mile journey take 75 minutes..

No thanks.

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Fri 11 Aug 2023 14:34
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Andrew-T

Public transport supposed to be cheap.

Everyone likes the things they want to be cheap. But if they were cheap, someone else has to make up the shortfall, meaning council tax or the like. So the non-users of public transport pay for something they don't use (like the library, quite likely). That's Socialism of course ....

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Fri 11 Aug 2023 15:29
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - sammy1

Public transport supposed to be cheap.

Everyone likes the things they want to be cheap. But if they were cheap, someone else has to make up the shortfall, meaning council tax or the like. So the non-users of public transport pay for something they don't use (like the library, quite likely). That's Socialism of course ....

Ah OK for you to compare these views as socialism but only yesterday I compared some of your taxation comments as a likeness to communism in a perfectly straight forward and polite way and NOT accusing you of communism and my comparison has disappeared So what is going on unless your socialism comment itself will go? Seems like censorship to me!

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Fri 11 Aug 2023 15:37
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - _

Could we please stop having public little childish spats.

There have been more complaints.

If it continues I'll be closed.

Mod.

Edited by _ORB_ on 11/08/2023 at 15:38

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Fri 11 Aug 2023 16:55
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Andrew-T

<< ... yesterday I compared some of your taxation comments as a likeness to communism in a perfectly straight forward and polite way and NOT accusing you of communism and my comparison has disappeared So what is going on unless your socialism comment itself will go? Seems like censorship to me! >>

I may have queried your comparing my remarks with anything to do with communism, but didn't receive an explanation. I think the Mods may have taken exception to your dismissing my remarks as 'a load of rubbish' ?

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Fri 11 Aug 2023 17:13
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Xileno

Not specifically but the thread was removed as it was just becoming tedious and there were complaints.

Now for the FINAL time can we get back to discussing the Motorway Drive per Mile issues and not these silly disagreements about who said what where when etc.

Any more tedium and this one will be locked.

Mods

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Fri 11 Aug 2023 17:27
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - sammy1

Not specifically but the thread was removed as it was just becoming tedious and there were complaints.

Now for the FINAL time can we get back to discussing the Motorway Drive per Mile issues and not these silly disagreements about who said what where when etc.

Any more tedium and this one will be locked.

Mods

May I respectfully ask what has happen to the ""tyre vandal" thread in general? No untold abuse in there as far as I can tell and the word rubbish is well hardly a hanging offence. There was in my opinion some very interesting content but as often the case not an awful lot of agreement. Again with respect what is the point in stifling argument if people don't agree?

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 08:15
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - expat

They do mileage charging in Singapore with a meter attached to the dashboard. The world didn't end. Singapore is very different to the UK as a whole but not so different to the bigger cities.

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 10:32
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - barney100

I'm not sure how charges will be sourced, it will take a huge investment to put up enough cameras or maybe some satellite gizmo is planned. Some folks in London are disabling the ULEZ cameras or plain running off with them. There are countless geeks out there who very clever at thwarting devices too so I imagine it won't be plain sailing. The Gov will have to raise money from motorists somehow.

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 11:37
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - John F

I'm not one of the complainants, but probably time to close this fractious thread. Another reason to do so might be the unacceptable premise of its subject. Why should 'motorways' be considered to be any different from other roads? Most of them are treated like local roads anyway, from one of their frequent junctions to the next. Many from the northern UK travelling to and from the south of England past London would welcome a new fast road with at least 30 miles between junctions from Nottingham to Gatwick.

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 11:52
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Xileno

We will keep it open while it stays broadly on topic and contributions are respectful.

The subject thread itself may be controversial but it's in the news so fair to discuss.

It's only a consultation, so doubtful it will go any further than that.

Mods

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 18:33
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - sammy1

The right decision! I personally cannot understand this current thinking of keeping on topic. Most threads would not get past five replies on subject. Regarding the thread from JF above I have read this again from start to finish and for the life of me I cannot see that much deviation not as I say I think it matters. It is extremely difficult to keep on track and not meaning to be at all clever one of the mods up thread asked for it to be keep on thread and then comments on tube travel and the Elizabethan line! Our friend in Taiwan early this morning, going to bed for him? brings up about 10 recent threads in his usual quirky way mentioning the "tyre Drilling"" thread. I will respectfully ask again where has it gone? The OP who started it must be wondering also. There are adults on here most of the time and I think most can handle what might be thrown as long as it is not abusive

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 19:07
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Xileno

I'm sure this has been covered before. In the Motoring forum we try and keep discussions related to Motoring. Yes threads deviate in the same way discussions do as if chatting in a pub. The issue is that often these deviations are into contentious subjects, it doesn't take much for politics, Brexit, climate change etc. to get raised. Sometimes (especially the first two) they are bound up with Motoring and some discussion is OK but we get enough comments and emails to know that the probably silent majority do not come to HJ to see these intense drawn-out battles that frequently result. They want to come here and have a fun and beneficial time discussing motoring.

If people want to discuss non-motoring subjects then the General forum is the place. People can then read, contribute or ignore completely. Forum rules still apply and that is why the thread you refer to was removed, despite a request for no sniping it was becoming tedious to moderate. People have their entrenched views, it seems to become a tedious battle of wills as much as anything with certain members needing to have the final say at all costs, whether they are right or wrong.

Sometimes a thread might get split if the deviation is of value but this is tricky to do, it all works by index id so if there are many 'replied to' posts and spam woven in then it's a lot of work and you only get one chance - there's no 'Undo' button here and no Log to retrieve things from. There used to be with the old software but not now so once deleted that's game over. Most know we are volunteers, there's only so much time we are prepared to spend (and should have to spend) moderating, if a thread just becomes too bothersome then it's likely to get chopped.

There's no yardstick to apply regarding deviation, I'm sure if someone was bored they could trawl through the Backroom and find examples of inconsistency - it's as much a gut feeling as anything else and how people are responding to each other. It might also depends on how busy we are. If people are being civilised then we are less likely to intervene than if silly spats are going on.

Mods

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 19:25
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - FP

I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for what the moderators here do and I feel they are more tolerant than those on many other forums.

Whatever decisions they make, someone will be unhappy. I think it's accepted as bad etiquette to disagree with moderators' decisions publicly. The mods can be reached by e-mail.

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 20:36
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - sammy1

I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for what the moderators here do and I feel they are more tolerant than those on many other forums.

Whatever decisions they make, someone will be unhappy. I think it's accepted as bad etiquette to disagree with moderators' decisions publicly. The mods can be reached by e-mail.

They have my respect also. Bad etiquette now that's an old phrase and I am aware of how the site works. There is no need to comment as the mod as done this already. As far as the mods are concerned they are volunteers as you well know and I for one try not to add to their workload. Your constant attacks on me does not help the situation this being another and again mentioned in the MODs reply about this sort of thing so take heed. If the mods are happy to comment and post threads why should they not be occasionally asked why in forum without going through the back door. It is after all a public forum is it not?

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 21:22
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - FP

I am going to choose my words very carefully.

It is very unfortunate that my innocent post supporting the mods has been turned into something else.

I do not make "constant attacks" on you. I may well criticise what you post; there is a difference.

"... so take heed." Your comment is out of order. I will not take instructions from you.

This being a public forum has no bearing on the fact that questioning the moderators' decisions openly is asking for trouble - and in fact adds to their workload.

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 21:44
ANY - Motorway Drive per Mile Charging - Xileno

Moderation issues are dealt with by email, this has been the position since the Backroom first started in 2000 so should not be news to anyone. It's in the Sticky thread at the top of the forum as well. As well as keeping any potential private matters off the forum, it also just keeps things tidy.

The post above was raised as it was felt by us that an explanation about why we try and keep threads from deviating too much in Motoring might be useful to the wider audience. We occasionally receive complaints about threads getting hijacked.

Anyway seeing as nothing new relating to the original subject has been posted since 11:37 this one has probably run its course and is best put to bed now.

Mods

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