SUVs Public enemy No 1?

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 12:44
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - sammy1

France has had the guts to crack down on SUV drivers. Why doesn’t Britain? (msn.com)

A very good article from the sheer size of some of these to the extra resources used to build them and the extra weight and emissions they generate. Safe as houses for the driver but less so for the cars or pedestrians they might hit. Well with all the concerns about climate and its implications do we ban SUVs or load their taxes even more. Or is it basically another case of rich and poor ie what you can afford and carry on regardless?.

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 13:05
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - RT

France has had the guts to crack down on SUV drivers. Why doesn’t Britain? (msn.com)

A very good article from the sheer size of some of these to the extra resources used to build them and the extra weight and emissions they generate. Safe as houses for the driver but less so for the cars or pedestrians they might hit. Well with all the concerns about climate and its implications do we ban SUVs or load their taxes even more. Or is it basically another case of rich and poor ie what you can afford and carry on regardless?.

Nothing to do with rich or poor - some of us need a large 4wd load carrier, some of us just want one - I'm not rich by a long way with lower than average income but I choose to drive a big SUV.

So it sounds like jealousy of a perceived situation.

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 13:43
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - Andrew-T

<< ... some of us need a large 4wd load carrier, some of us just want one - I'm not rich by a long way with lower than average income but I choose to drive a big SUV. >>

I'm confused - you say you choose, having just said you need one ? :-)

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 14:22
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - sammy1

<< ... some of us need a large 4wd load carrier, some of us just want one - I'm not rich by a long way with lower than average income but I choose to drive a big SUV. >>

I'm confused - you say you choose, having just said you need one ? :-)

it really is had work getting a decent contribution out of some

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 15:30
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - FP

"it really is had work getting a decent contribution out of some"

What's that supposed to mean?

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 16:31
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - sammy1

"it really is had work getting a decent contribution out of some"

What's that supposed to mean?

It simply means that RT says he wants an SUV never said he needed one perfectly clear to me

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 21:26
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - alan1302

"it really is had work getting a decent contribution out of some"

What's that supposed to mean?

It simply means that RT says he wants an SUV never said he needed one perfectly clear to me

They said some people need a large one and some people want one and and he has one as he wants one...not sure what the confusion is?

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 15:17
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - focussed

Not just SUV's Paris is to ban all vehicles apart from bikes.

www.theverge.com/2022/2/18/22940512/paris-car-ban-...n

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 22:34
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - Ian_SW

Whilst many new cars are undoubtedly pointlessly bloated, the real question would be which are actually SUVs?

Something like a Landrover Defender or a Toyota Land Cruiser clearly is, but what about the Nissan Qasqai or a Kia Sportage? Both of those are really just bloated hatchbacks and actually not that more inefficient than a similarly sized saloon/estate car.

The new Ford Puma may call itself an SUV, but if they'd called it a Mk5 Focus it would have been seen as a hatchback. Similarly if Peugeot had called the 2008 a 308 (and not made the current 308) it would have been seen as a medium hatchback.

Then what would they do about the Subaru Outback? - it may be an estate car but is far more SUV like both in terms of inefficiency and ability to go off road than many things which look more like a SUV.

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 22:41
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - sammy1

Whilst many new cars are undoubtedly pointlessly bloated, the real question would be which are actually SUVs?

Something like a Landrover Defender or a Toyota Land Cruiser clearly is, but what about the Nissan Qasqai or a Kia Sportage? Both of those are really just bloated hatchbacks and actually not that more inefficient than a similarly sized saloon/estate car.

The new Ford Puma may call itself an SUV, but if they'd called it a Mk5 Focus it would have been seen as a hatchback. Similarly if Peugeot had called the 2008 a 308 (and not made the current 308) it would have been seen as a medium hatchback.

Then what would they do about the Subaru Outback? - it may be an estate car but is far more SUV like both in terms of inefficiency and ability to go off road than many things which look more like a SUV.

Yes well put some of the smaller so labelled SUV have no resemblance to the bigger ones and are also far removed from their price bracket.

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 22:42
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - Adampr

Whilst many new cars are undoubtedly pointlessly bloated, the real question would be which are actually SUVs?

Something like a Landrover Defender or a Toyota Land Cruiser clearly is, but what about the Nissan Qasqai or a Kia Sportage? Both of those are really just bloated hatchbacks and actually not that more inefficient than a similarly sized saloon/estate car.

The new Ford Puma may call itself an SUV, but if they'd called it a Mk5 Focus it would have been seen as a hatchback. Similarly if Peugeot had called the 2008 a 308 (and not made the current 308) it would have been seen as a medium hatchback.

Then what would they do about the Subaru Outback? - it may be an estate car but is far more SUV like both in terms of inefficiency and ability to go off road than many things which look more like a SUV.

It's a fair question. My Skoda Karoq is a case in point - just a 1.5 hatchback needlessly high off the ground. I'm not really sure what the point is other than I couldn't find a 'proper' car with as nice an interior and ride. If someone just made a decent mid/large hatchback again I'm sure it would do well.

In terms of efficiency, the body shape seems to make.it about 10% worse (at a complete guess). Certainly, my previous Seat Toledo performed just as well and returned 10% better mpg. It had a smaller engine, but was able to because it wasn't carting so much metal around

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 23:10
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - Ethan Edwards

I think France has bigger problems than wokistas bedwetting about SUVs.

Worried about petrol fumes? That from cars or banlui rioters petrol bombs?

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 11:37
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - focussed

I think France has bigger problems than wokistas bedwetting about SUVs.

Worried about petrol fumes? That from cars or banlui rioters petrol bombs?

Paris is governed by a far-left mayor and vociferous greenies.

We don't have "woke" or "wokistas" in France thankfully.

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 23:17
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - Big John

The new Ford Puma may call itself an SUV, but if they'd called it a Mk5 Focus it would have been seen as a hatchback.

Interesting, personally I don't get the SUV thing at all but for some reason I quite like the Puma especially now the later 1.0 engine is now cam chain instead of the awful cam belt in oil engine.

Edited by Big John on 27/07/2023 at 23:19

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 23:21
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - Sofa Spud

If they ban SUVs, then surely there's an equal case for banning high-performance cars.

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 06:47
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - RT

Whilst many new cars are undoubtedly pointlessly bloated, the real question would be which are actually SUVs?

Something like a Landrover Defender or a Toyota Land Cruiser clearly is, but what about the Nissan Qasqai or a Kia Sportage? Both of those are really just bloated hatchbacks and actually not that more inefficient than a similarly sized saloon/estate car.

The new Ford Puma may call itself an SUV, but if they'd called it a Mk5 Focus it would have been seen as a hatchback. Similarly if Peugeot had called the 2008 a 308 (and not made the current 308) it would have been seen as a medium hatchback.

Then what would they do about the Subaru Outback? - it may be an estate car but is far more SUV like both in terms of inefficiency and ability to go off road than many things which look more like a SUV.

To me, and many others, the cars you refer to are cross-overs not SUVs but their manufacturers' seem determined to muddy the definition.

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 07:22
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - gordonbennet

A suitably heart in mouth won't you think of the children article from one of the usual sources of ban everything we have a irrational hatred of, thankfully the author apparently usually writes about cycling.and urban transport so has no personal axes to grind here.

As the country morphes gradually to mirror China these people and sources will be overjoyed, until the totalitarian utopia these interfering busybodies wish for starts to affect them in ways they assumed would only affect those they abhor, when they find their views have been superceeded and/or the regime changes.

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 08:11
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - badbusdriver

To me, and many others, the cars you refer to are cross-overs not SUVs but their manufacturers' seem determined to muddy the definition.

Neither label actually means anything pertinent only to the vehicles so labelled. So the problem (if you chose to call it that) is the vagueness of those labels.

"SUV" in particular is absolute nonsense, up there with MPV and people carrier. So it amuses me no end when owners of what they consider, "proper SUV's", start arguing that the label shouldn't be applied to what they think of as a crossover.

Sport Utility Vehicle?, hmm. Take a Landcruiser as an example, what is sporty about it?. Thats right, nothing. Utility can certainly apply to it, but any more so than a Qashqai, Golf estate or even a Fiesta?. Depends on what you need. And a Landcruiser is certainly a vehicle, but then so is a bicycle!. As far as I am concerned, the label SUV would be most applicable to a sporty van or pickup.

Crossover is at least reasonably clear in that it combines elements from two or more cars. So that would possibly be a more apt label for an SUV than SUV. But it could equally be applied to a crew cab van or pickup.

Edited by badbusdriver on 28/07/2023 at 08:32

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 09:02
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - nellyjak

"SUV" in particular is absolute nonsense, up there with MPV and people carrier. So it amuses me no end when owners of what they consider, "proper SUV's", start arguing that the label shouldn't be applied to what they think of as a crossover.

I would have thought MPV can be quite an accurate description.?..that is, applied to a vehicle that is truly multipurpose.

My Estima is an estate car, load carrier, campervan, dayvan, passenger carrier, mobile office et al...how multipurpose do you want..?

Edited by nellyjak on 28/07/2023 at 09:03

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 09:24
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - badbusdriver

"SUV" in particular is absolute nonsense, up there with MPV and people carrier. So it amuses me no end when owners of what they consider, "proper SUV's", start arguing that the label shouldn't be applied to what they think of as a crossover.

I would have thought MPV can be quite an accurate description.?..that is, applied to a vehicle that is truly multipurpose.

My Estima is an estate car, load carrier, campervan, dayvan, passenger carrier, mobile office et al...how multipurpose do you want..?

MPV is certainly applicable to your Estima.

But if you look at MPV's sold in the UK, they don't have anything like that sort of versatility and are no more multi purpose than any other 5 door car with folding seats.

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 09:55
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - mcb100
I think the first time we as a European market came across the SUV tag was Qashqai, launched in 2006. A crossover of regular hatchback driving characteristics and off road 4x4 styling.
And from that point, seemingly every manufacturer jumped on the crossover bandwagon.
Then, mysteriously, the crossover tag all but disappeared as marketing departments decided that they were SUV’s.
There is no tick box of features to determine whether a car is definitively a crossover or SUV, it’s down to how it’s marketed.
I’ve just spent a few weeks in a Renault Austral, which is described as an SUV, despite having no off-road credentials at all, whilst one of its predecessors, the Koleos, I demonstrated off road for the launch event and was sold as a crossover.
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Fri 28 Jul 2023 11:29
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - badbusdriver

There is no tick box of features to determine whether a car is definitively a crossover or SUV, it’s down to how it’s marketed.

Thats it exactly, SUV, Crossover, MPV and People carrier are all labels invented by marketing type to pigeonhole certain types of car.

If memory serves, when I first started becoming aware of the SUV monicker, it was to describe something a bit less butch and capable than a "proper" off road workhorse. Whereas now it is, and owners of these seem to take umbrage at the term being applied to something like a Qashqai. Maybe the sport part is to do with using something like a Lardcruiser or Defender as a means to take part in sports where you may need to go some way off the beaten track to do, such as rock climbing or white water kayaking?

But I think the term crossover may be disappearing because most buyers are choosing them for the same attributes as they would an SUV (just in a smaller package), so marketing types have sussed that it isn't really necessary.

If you compare a smaller MPV like a Ford C-Max, the only real difference between it and an equivalent sized SUV as that the former has no pretence at being able to go off road. Otherwise they have the same benefits of sitting you a little higher (in some cases, a very little higher!) and having a little more space and practicality than an equivalent family hatchback.

Edited by badbusdriver on 28/07/2023 at 11:30

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 12:40
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - japdriver

My Suzuki Vitara 1.4 petrol weighs less than a Vauxhall Astra, does 51.4 mpg, and suits my family needs perfectly.

I’d struggle to think of a similarly sized hatchback that could tick the same boxes for me.

Maybe the original poster has issues with weight rather than size?

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 12:44
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - movilogo

SUV haters need to understand the difference between CUV and SUV.

Most SUVs are actually CUVs - which are cars with just bit of extra ground clearance.

SUVs are true off road vehicles with ladder chassis.

CUVs are unibody cars, mostly 2WD.

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 12:57
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - mcb100
‘ SUVs are true off road vehicles with ladder chassis.’

So what does that make a Range Rover? Amongst the best off-roaders in the world, but a a unibody construction. As it the current Defender.

Edited by mcb100 on 28/07/2023 at 12:59

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 13:05
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - movilogo

So what does that make a Range Rover?

An offroad minibus :-)

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 13:33
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - badbusdriver

Most SUVs are actually CUVs - which are cars with just bit of extra ground clearance.

SUVs are true off road vehicles with ladder chassis.

CUVs are unibody cars, mostly 2WD.

They are all just cars though, like a Ford Fiesta is!

So what does that make a Range Rover? Amongst the best off-roaders in the world, but a a unibody construction. As it the current Defender.

The 4th gen discovery was designed as a unibody, but in their wisdom LR decided to give it a chassis too. One of the reasons why it was sooo heavy.

But whether or not a 4x4 has a separate chassis has no bearing whatsoever on how competent it will be off road. That is down to things like ground clearance, axle articulation/wheel travel, traction, and approach/departure angles, ramp breakover angle, manoeuvrability etc. That last part can be the most important aspect depending on where you are off roading.

Back in 1977 when it first appeared, the unibody Lada Niva was one of the most competent off roaders available that could also be used as a normal car. While its independent front suspension did compromise its ultimate off road ability, the vast rear wheel travel afforded by the live axle on coils meant that it wasn't hampered too much. At the time, the Series 3 Landrovers had leaf springs front and rear, limiting the suspension travel and also restricting the steering lock (a lwb Landy needed a ludicrous amount of space to do a u turn!).

The original Fiat Panda 4x4 (also unibody) was and still is hugely competent off road, despite its fairly primitive 4x4 system and lack of a low ration transmission. Simply because of its lightness ground clearance and manoeuvrability.

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 15:08
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - corax
But whether or not a 4x4 has a separate chassis has no bearing whatsoever on how competent it will be off road. That is down to things like ground clearance, axle articulation/wheel travel, traction, and approach/departure angles, ramp breakover angle, manoeuvrability etc. That last part can be the most important aspect depending on where you are off roading.

Back in 1977 when it first appeared, the unibody Lada Niva was one of the most competent off roaders available that could also be used as a normal car. While its independent front suspension did compromise its ultimate off road ability, the vast rear wheel travel afforded by the live axle on coils meant that it wasn't hampered too much. At the time, the Series 3 Landrovers had leaf springs front and rear, limiting the suspension travel and also restricting the steering lock (a lwb Landy needed a ludicrous amount of space to do a u turn!).

The original Fiat Panda 4x4 (also unibody) was and still is hugely competent off road, despite its fairly primitive 4x4 system and lack of a low ration transmission. Simply because of its lightness ground clearance and manoeuvrability.

The original Range Rover was good, G wagen too with it's lockable diffs. Can't see how the latest Range Rovers can be any good at all. There is very little ground clearance, you would get caught up on a deep rutted track in no time. The original concept disappeared a long time ago.

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 15:25
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - mcb100
They’re still pretty good….
Air suspension and phenomenally complex traction control does the heavy lifting.

youtu.be/ohR3-PrvxQk
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Fri 28 Jul 2023 15:59
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - badbusdriver

The original Range Rover was good, G wagen too with it's lockable diffs. Can't see how the latest Range Rovers can be any good at all. There is very little ground clearance, you would get caught up on a deep rutted track in no time. The original concept disappeared a long time ago.

Yes, the original Range Rover was certainly good off road, and its trump cards were the smooth ride (compared with leaf sprung) and huge axle articulation thanks to live axles on coils both ends. The G Wagon didn't have the axle articulation of the Rangey, but countered this with the locking diffs on both axles, arguably making it more capable in extremis.

As has been said, its all electronics and height adjustable suspension. Fine if it is working......

Yes, the original had a hose out interior. Wouldn't be wise to do that now!

Edited by badbusdriver on 28/07/2023 at 16:00

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 15:22
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - RT

SUV haters need to understand the difference between CUV and SUV.

Most SUVs are actually CUVs - which are cars with just bit of extra ground clearance.

SUVs are true off road vehicles with ladder chassis.

CUVs are unibody cars, mostly 2WD.

And then there's European unibody SUV - LR Defender, Range Rover and a few others.

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 19:07
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - Metropolis.
Movilogo has it bang on here.

I would add that some SUVs have converted to CUVs of varying capabilities.

Disco 4 to Disco 5 is an example. Doesn’t matter if it is European or not, a unibody is still a CUV.
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Fri 28 Jul 2023 16:38
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - John F

.......do we ban SUVs ....

No. Mrs F is very fond of her small Peugeot 2008 SUV. And there's arguably far too much of nanny state these days.

or load their taxes even more.

Yes. Basic VED plus one £ per Kg over a curb weight of 1500Kg. Those who actually need them for work can put it against tax. Or buy a practical 4x4 pick-up, which is taxed at van rates.

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Sun 30 Jul 2023 13:55
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - jchinuk

Perhaps a future replacement for VED needs to be based on vehicle weight?

jch

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Sun 30 Jul 2023 14:03
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - RT

Perhaps a future replacement for VED needs to be based on vehicle weight?

jch

It would need to be on plated GVW, aka Revenue Weight but DVLA doesn't have that recorded for many older vehicles - it can't be done on kerb weight as there's no legal definition of it and several different unofficial versions - including "mass in service"

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Sun 30 Jul 2023 20:44
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - Brit_in_Germany

Instead of banning particular models, they just need to impose a limit on the power output of the ice drive train. A 50 hp limit should do the trick (and keep those nasty German cars out).

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Mon 31 Jul 2023 08:01
SUVs Public enemy No 1? - badbusdriver

Instead of banning particular models, they just need to impose a limit on the power output of the ice drive train. A 50 hp limit should do the trick (and keep those nasty German cars out).

Along with pretty much everything else currently for sale in the UK!

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