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New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1

First drive in the new £40k Vauxhall Astra Electric hatchback - is it worth the 49% premium compared to its petrol version? (msn.com)

50% more than a petrol model, looks like a car from the front instead of those bland panels where the radiator went. Can never see this E holding on to a decent second hand value and as for running costs how do you claw back the difference in the purchase price.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - mcb100
Except it isn’t a 49% price increase when you compare like for like.
Sure, Astra petrol starts at £26,810 but an Ultimate spec version is £32,820.
EV Ultimate is £43,110, whilst you can have a GS EV at £39,995.
I’m picking one up in about 10 days, impressions to follow if there’s any interest.
I’m driving it, amongst other places, from Dover to Oldham on a Saturday evening, so it’ll be a good test of real world motorway EV range.
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Xileno

Definitely worth hearing your updates!

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1

Good luck with the Astra. I know you are a fan of electric but in the real world where pennies are hard to come buy have you any thoughts on the running costs verses the price difference in the two cheapest model or dearest. How do car makers expect mister average to buy a car with a £13k price difference. I hope it is fully charged when you get it as you may only get as far as Canterbury, the only other town that springs to mind in Kent. Just a funny!

Tell me while I am here when you lift of the accelerator in your electric how much speed does it drop off and how quick compared to a coasting ICE. say at 70 and are they all pretty much the same in this respect. I suppose how quick is the real question? I will have to have a go in one

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - mcb100
I’ll do the easy one first, and come back to the rest later.
You very seldom need to brake in an EV if you use the regeneration to full effect.
I’m usually on adaptive cruise at 70, so the cars doing the work, but if you switch it off then it’ll feel like you’ve applied moderate braking. It’s enough to trigger the brake lights. Around town, the deceleration is akin to stepping off the accelerator in an ICE in perhaps second gear. If you see a set of red lights 200 metres away and think ‘I know, I’ll step off the power early and roll up to them’ you’ll have stopped 100 metres short. You have to drive it to a stop. Long winded to explain, really easy to do.
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1
I’ll do the easy one first, and come back to the rest later. You very seldom need to brake in an EV if you use the regeneration to full effect. I’m usually on adaptive cruise at 70, so the cars doing the work, but if you switch it off then it’ll feel like you’ve applied moderate braking. It’s enough to trigger the brake lights. Around town, the deceleration is akin to stepping off the accelerator in an ICE in perhaps second gear. If you see a set of red lights 200 metres away and think ‘I know, I’ll step off the power early and roll up to them’ you’ll have stopped 100 metres short. You have to drive it to a stop. Long winded to explain, really easy to do.

Thanks very much. I did not know that the hash deceleration triggered the brake lights which was really at the heart of what my question was about. In real time driving behind an EV I have found it different to work out the braking pattern of some I have followed

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - mcb100
Not just EV’s. Anything with active/adaptive cruise control will illuminate its brake lights if deceleration goes above a predetermined level. Somewhere around 0.2G, I believe.
So if a car has moved in front, cruise will, if needed, apply the brakes.
Or if a car has over speed prevention built in, again the brakes will be applied if gravity is increasing the speed above the set point.
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - paul 1963

Look forward to your impressions mcb, haven driven a few EV's myself the regeneration braking really doesn't take a lot of getting used to.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - movilogo

How do car makers expect mister average to buy a car with a £13k price difference.

Because of power of marketing. Same reason people pay more for iPhone where as many Android phones offer exactly same or better functionality at lower price.

A good size of motoring public believes EV is better than ICEs. It is an emotional choice - not necessarily an economic or rational choice.

We make decisions by emotion and then use logic to justify the decision.

Nobody is forcing us to buy anything. One can buy ICE cars till 2030 so people will pick up cars as per their personal preference.

This is a motoring forum, we love all types of cars - petrol, diesel, electric, hydrogen, hybrid - everything.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Metropolis.
Sorry but we are being forced to buy electric, just look at all the fines for driving into town and city centres just because your car is not on an approved list. The outright ban is not that far away, people will start worrying about depreciation on ICE vehicles soon too. The petrol and diesel infrastructure will be affected as well once enough people are forced into EVs or onto commie transport. We take petrol stations for granted now but they wont be offering petrol if there’s no demand.

Nanny state at its worst. I am yet to meet anyone that genuinely thinks EVs are better.

If you ban ICE sales and the only other option is EV or commie transport, you are definitely forcing people.

Edited by Metropolis. on 15/06/2023 at 21:30

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - barney100

Quite agree, we are being forced into EVs and the majority don't want them. 40k for an Astra EV? Madness.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - alan1302

Same reason people pay more for iPhone where as many Android phones offer exactly same or better functionality at lower price.

Flagship phones from Samsung cost about the same as iPhones if you are comparing like for like.

As for EV's most people don't buy cars - they are leases or on a PCP plan so it's all down to monthly costs rather than the RRP of the car.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Metropolis.
Having always been more of a GM fan than Ford (or indeed Peugeot) I have lost interest in Vauxhall after they l stopped being part of GM. Not sure they can offer anything unique in this country now, other than slightly more conservative versions of Peugeots. Happy to be corrected!
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Adampr
Having always been more of a GM fan than Ford (or indeed Peugeot) I have lost interest in Vauxhall after they l stopped being part of GM. Not sure they can offer anything unique in this country now, other than slightly more conservative versions of Peugeots. Happy to be corrected!

Slightly cheaper and uglier Peugeots too.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - mcb100
‘ I am yet to meet anyone that genuinely thinks EVs are better. ’

We’ve not met, have we? I’m mcb100 and I think EV’s are better in a whole raft of ways.
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Adampr
‘ I am yet to meet anyone that genuinely thinks EVs are better. ’ We’ve not met, have we? I’m mcb100 and I think EV’s are better in a whole raft of ways.

I am also Spartacus. Having had an EV for 2 years, it was better. I am looking forward to getting my hands on one again in the future when circumstances allow.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Metropolis.
This is starting to sound like EVs anonymous!

Edited by Metropolis. on 15/06/2023 at 22:18

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Metropolis.
I’m Metropolis, nice to meet you too lol. Despite not being a fan of EVs I will still read your update with interest.
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1

""" in the real world where pennies are hard to come buy have you any thoughts on the running costs verses the price difference in the two cheapest model or dearest. How do car makers expect mister average to buy a car with a £13k price difference."""

The equivalent petrol Astra is £13k cheaper than the E If Astra was for you which one?

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Adampr

""" in the real world where pennies are hard to come buy have you any thoughts on the running costs verses the price difference in the two cheapest model or dearest. How do car makers expect mister average to buy a car with a £13k price difference."""

The equivalent petrol Astra is £13k cheaper than the E If Astra was for you which one?

I think you might be talking to yourself. However. The answer to the question depends entirely on an individual's circumstances. Do they have off street parking? How many miles do they do a year? Do they do frequent short journeys or longer journeys? Do they prefer the EV driving experience or the ICE driving experience? Can they afford the extra £13k? Do they have PV panels at home? And so on.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - pd

If you are a company user then the end user still might be better off with the EV version financially.

I can't help but think it's going to have to be a lot, lot better than something like a MG 4 to justify the £10k price premium for private buyers.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Xileno

How many people buy new though? Not many, it's all in the monthlies with PCP or alternative schemes. So what is the monthly difference between the two cars? Also if a company car driver then the favourable BIK rates need to be considered.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - movilogo

2030 is still 7 years away. Hybrids will be available till 2035. So if one buys an ICE car now probably by 2035 he needs to change car and only that time we can say forced to buy EV. Until then we have choice of ICE as well as EV.

I understand many manufacturers are pulling away ICE cars so choice is going to be limited. But at the same time, there are lot of EV haters who may keep used ICE car prices up.

Regarding benefit of EV, if we skip environmenal aspect and tax advantages (because they are debatable), I am genuinely interested to know what advantages EV offers over ICE/hybrid cars.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Adampr

Regarding benefit of EV, if we skip environmenal aspect and tax advantages (because they are debatable), I am genuinely interested to know what advantages EV offers over ICE/hybrid cars.

Faster, quieter, no petrol stations, more relaxing drive, no smell, lower maintenance and, most importantly, pre-heating in winter...

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Andrew-T

Regarding benefit of EV, if we skip environmenal aspect and tax advantages (because they are debatable), I am genuinely interested to know what advantages EV offers over ICE/hybrid cars.

Faster, quieter, no petrol stations, more relaxing drive, no smell, lower maintenance and, most importantly, pre-heating in winter...

I'm trying to see the 'advantages' of 'no petrol stations' ? Instead, drivers will need probably more EV-charging stations, as EVs cannot (yet) manage 500 miles on one fill, and drivers will take more time to 'fill' their car.

Anyhow, as we all know, most petrol stations have become convenience shops with a few pumps attached, rather like airports with runways.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Adampr

Regarding benefit of EV, if we skip environmenal aspect and tax advantages (because they are debatable), I am genuinely interested to know what advantages EV offers over ICE/hybrid cars.

Faster, quieter, no petrol stations, more relaxing drive, no smell, lower maintenance and, most importantly, pre-heating in winter...

I'm trying to see the 'advantages' of 'no petrol stations' ? Instead, drivers will need probably more EV-charging stations, as EVs cannot (yet) manage 500 miles on one fill, and drivers will take more time to 'fill' their car.

Anyhow, as we all know, most petrol stations have become convenience shops with a few pumps attached, rather like airports with runways.

For working people who commute by car, a minor irritation is having to stop for fuel. You never want to do it on the way home because you just want to get home, but doing it in the morning means you either leave earlier or get to work late.

With an EV, you just plug it in when you get home and it's magically full again in the morning.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - catsdad

The price difference will fall very quickly if the government acts on proposals to fine car companies from next year if their EVs don’t constitute 22% of their sales. Ramping the % up in following years. £15k per “excess” ICE car has been quoted.

Car companies might well increase ICE prices to reduce relative demand and subsidise EVs. Although they are also able to trade numbers between themselves e.g Tesla as 100% EV can trade allowances with ICE biased manufacturers.

I haven seen anything lately on these proposals so maybe they have been quietly dropped or postponed. If not the devil will be in the detail and how manufacturers offset any fines but I think it’s likely to see the price of ICE cars increase and availability reduce.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - barney100

I would like to hear your reasoning on EV superiority.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - mcb100
‘ Hybrids will be available till 2035’

So far as we understand the proposals, plug-in hybrids will be available up to 2035. Self charging, mild, range extender types will disappear in 2030. But given that Volvo recently announced that they’re dropping PHEV’s from their range with immediate effect, will others follow and make plug-in hybrids obsolete by then?
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - mcb100
‘ EVs cannot (yet) manage 500 miles on one fill’

What’s the relevance of 500 miles? Is that a regular daily requirement for lots of people?
300 is a long day for me, and I’d expect to do that with a maximum of 30 minutes on a public charger.
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - movilogo

Faster, quieter, no petrol stations, more relaxing drive, no smell, lower maintenance and, most importantly, pre-heating in winter...

Let's examine one by one

Faster - yes but may not be useful and sometime dangerous (when coming from ICE), top speed is irrelevant.

Quieter - not necessarily, especially Tesla 3 price bracket. The wind noise, tyre noise play more important roles compared to engine noise. I think equivalent priced petrol cars are not noisier.

no petrol stations = huh? Going to pumps for 5 mins every 2 weeks lot more palatable than plugging at home every night! While on road charging takes 5x-6x more time than filling up with petrol. So it is huge disadvantage for EV (of course depends on user's perspective).

relaxing to drive = mostly depends on mental state of driver, less on the car.

no smell = may be valid for diesel, but I do find smell of petrol addictive :-)

lower maintenance = yes, agree on that but you pay lot more on purchase so cancels out (assuming you buy the car and not renting).

pre-heating in winter = never had that experience, so can't comment but heated seats are pretty good

Here are advantages of ICE cars

1. Cheaper to buy (against equivalent EV model)

2. Faster to fill up

3. Better range

4. More choices (at present)

5. No range anxiety

6. Proven track record

7. No planning necessary for longer journeys

8. Predictable resale values

9. No anxiety that next model will be better (every ICE car will become limited edition past 2030) so you are buying pinnacle of engineering at the moment

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Adampr

Faster, quieter, no petrol stations, more relaxing drive, no smell, lower maintenance and, most importantly, pre-heating in winter...

Let's examine one by one

Faster - yes but may not be useful and sometime dangerous (when coming from ICE), top speed is irrelevant.

Quieter - not necessarily, especially Tesla 3 price bracket. The wind noise, tyre noise play more important roles compared to engine noise. I think equivalent priced petrol cars are not noisier.

no petrol stations = huh? Going to pumps for 5 mins every 2 weeks lot more palatable than plugging at home every night! While on road charging takes 5x-6x more time than filling up with petrol. So it is huge disadvantage for EV (of course depends on user's perspective).

relaxing to drive = mostly depends on mental state of driver, less on the car.

no smell = may be valid for diesel, but I do find smell of petrol addictive :-)

lower maintenance = yes, agree on that but you pay lot more on purchase so cancels out (assuming you buy the car and not renting).

pre-heating in winter = never had that experience, so can't comment but heated seats are pretty good

Here are advantages of ICE cars

1. Cheaper to buy (against equivalent EV model)

2. Faster to fill up

3. Better range

4. More choices (at present)

5. No range anxiety

6. Proven track record

7. No planning necessary for longer journeys

8. Predictable resale values

9. No anxiety that next model will be better (every ICE car will become limited edition past 2030) so you are buying pinnacle of engineering at the moment

I'm not going to argue with you point by point. You asked for the advantages - those are the ones I could think of. I have had an EV and lived that experience. I suppose you could tell me that I'm wrong, but I'm unsure how you could know my experience better than I do.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Ethan Edwards

Another advantage is that by not visiting petrol stations, you don't buy sweets etc whilst your queuing to pay. So your svelte figure (we can dream) is preserved. Oh and that saves you cash too.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1

Advantages 1-9 for ICE Reasons to be Cheerful, Part 3 Ian Dury. I like a dose of logic and reality.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - focussed

Advantages 1-9 for ICE Reasons to be Cheerful, Part 3 Ian Dury. I like a dose of logic and reality.

The current UK obsession with compelling all road users to pay for, own and drive an EV by 2030 has nothing to do with logic or reality.

The UK has had to fire up a coal fired power station to cope with demand - five days ago in the middle of summer.!

Not enough solar or wind power when you need it.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/12/uk-hea...d

Where is the power going to come from come the next hard cold winter?

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - alan1302

Advantages 1-9 for ICE Reasons to be Cheerful, Part 3 Ian Dury. I like a dose of logic and reality.

The current UK obsession with compelling all road users to pay for, own and drive an EV by 2030 has nothing to do with logic or reality.

The UK has had to fire up a coal fired power station to cope with demand - five days ago in the middle of summer.!

Not enough solar or wind power when you need it.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/12/uk-hea...d

Where is the power going to come from come the next hard cold winter?

If they build more solar/wind/hydro...some battery storage...a few nuclear power stations...easy fix if they spend the money.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Sofa Spud

I thought they had to fire up the coal-fired power station because one of the under-sea links from mainland Europe was switched off.

In the next cold, hard winter, the combined cycle gas-fired power stations would make up any shortfall from renewables. Nuclear provides a fairly constant base-load all year round. Coal is presumably the last resort.

If coal-fired power stations need to be retained as a back-up, then I imagine they'd need to be used from time to time just to make sure they still work properly.

Grid-scale battery storage facilities should be able to cover some of the shortfalls in renewables, but they are really part of the overall renewables package.

If we get 3% of our electricity annually from coal-fired power stations, rather than the 80% or so of 50 years ago, that's a huge improvement.

An electric car uses energy once - to drive the car. A petrol or diesel car uses energy twice, once to refine the crude oil into usable fuel and again to drive the car. Refining the fuel to power a petrol or diesel car a given distance takes (roughly) the same amount of energy as an equivalent electric car would consume to travel the same distance.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1

Well not one answer that is to the point yet same old arguments. Nothing practical as to what Mr Average with 2.4 kids( is it still this ratio or has fertility dropped ) is going to buy. Who is honestly going to waste £13k. Whether leasing oy buying somewhere along the line that £13k is going to evaporate away and the E will probably depreciate more than the ICE. For me you have basically a car with 4 wheels and a different drive train. If they were the same price it would be a preference. Has it is now £13k would cover 5 years of running costs for the ICE not including depreciation. The Astra Electric is just another overpriced car with 285 miles range more like 240 best in use.. To put it another way Vauxhall a traditional low end car manufacturer how do they expect to sell electric Astras at a third dearer than the petrol equivalent. Vauxhall cars have a bad track record for depreciation will anything change with these new models? The world is perhaps correctly getting rid of fossil fuel but when you see the rich preferred mode of transport such as private planes yachts etc why should Mr Average take a big hit in the pocket to go electric... Best to stick it out and see what develops in the coming years

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Adampr

Well not one answer that is to the point yet same old arguments. Nothing practical as to what Mr Average with 2.4 kids( is it still this ratio or has fertility dropped ) is going to buy. Who is honestly going to waste £13k. Whether leasing oy buying somewhere along the line that £13k is going to evaporate away and the E will probably depreciate more than the ICE. For me you have basically a car with 4 wheels and a different drive train. If they were the same price it would be a preference. Has it is now £13k would cover 5 years of running costs for the ICE not including depreciation. The Astra Electric is just another overpriced car with 285 miles range more like 240 best in use.. To put it another way Vauxhall a traditional low end car manufacturer how do they expect to sell electric Astras at a third dearer than the petrol equivalent. Vauxhall cars have a bad track record for depreciation will anything change with these new models? The world is perhaps correctly getting rid of fossil fuel but when you see the rich preferred mode of transport such as private planes yachts etc why should Mr Average take a big hit in the pocket to go electric... Best to stick it out and see what develops in the coming years

Alright, let me explain it like this. If I want an Astra E Ultimate for three years, I can get one through work for £648 per month (7,500 miles per annum). Total cost £23,328.

If I want an Astra Ultimate, I can get one from Vauxhall for £10,026 deposit and 35 months at £190 per month (0% APR and 6,000 miles per annum). I then have to pay insurance of, say, £250 per annum, VED of £210 in year 1 and £180 thereafter and £250 a year for servicing. Total cost £18,746.

For 6,000 miles a year, I'm going to need about 1,714 kWh of electricity. At 9.5p per kWh overnight on Octopus Go, that costs me £163 a year or £489 over three years.

My ICE Astra claims to get 50 mpg. That means I'm going to need 120 gallons of petrol a year. At £1.40 a litre I'm paying £6.36 a gallon, so £763.20 a year - £2,289 total.

In total, my electric Astra would cost me about £24k, my petrol one about £22k.

Worth it? Probably not, and that's why I've got two petrol cars on my drive. However, were talking about £2k over three years - £56 per month. At higher mileages, fuel costs will be a bigger factor so it might start making more financial sense. Equally, not all manufacturers would offer 0% APR.

So, as people keep saying, whether buying an EV is financially sensible depends on your circumstances. Whether you want one or not depends on your taste.

Edited by Adampr on 16/06/2023 at 12:35

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - veloceman
I agree you can’t bring tax into the discussion as it is temporary and likely to change but not sure that you can ignore the environmental argument as this is the whole point in going electric in the first place.
Electric cars are not green and neither are solar panels while we on the subject.
It’s great that you can just pull up on your private drive to charge. Unfortunately only 35% of dwellers have the luxury to do so, the remaining 65% will have to use public chargers which more often than not the cost is equivalent to petrol/diesel.
Not sure how this 65% are going to be converted!
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Adampr
I agree you can’t bring tax into the discussion as it is temporary and likely to change but not sure that you can ignore the environmental argument as this is the whole point in going electric in the first place. Electric cars are not green and neither are solar panels while we on the subject. It’s great that you can just pull up on your private drive to charge. Unfortunately only 35% of dwellers have the luxury to do so, the remaining 65% will have to use public chargers which more often than not the cost is equivalent to petrol/diesel. Not sure how this 65% are going to be converted!

It's the other way around, 65% of people can charge at home.

I'm intrigued as to how solar panels are not 'green'. I presume the argument is that they are made of materials? If we're to write of all tangible objects as environmentally damaging, were going to have problems.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Andrew-T
‘ EVs cannot (yet) manage 500 miles on one fill’ What’s the relevance of 500 miles? Is that a regular daily requirement for lots of people? 300 is a long day for me, and I’d expect to do that with a maximum of 30 minutes on a public charger.

The relevance is simply the distance you can cover before needing another fill.

And (answering a different point) only a fraction of commuters are able to plug in their EV when they get home.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - movilogo

that's why I've got two petrol cars on my drive.

When we compare ICE vs EV we often compare them as only car in the household. For that purpose, ICE still wins by most measures.

But for a 2nd or multi-car household, often it makes sense to have 2nd/3rd cars as EV.

It will be interesting to know how many EVs are sold as only car in a household vs 2nd car.

whether buying an EV is financially sensible depends on your circumstances

Absolutely, that's why ICE vs EV debates never reach any conclusion :-)

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1

that's why I've got two petrol cars on my drive.

When we compare ICE vs EV we often compare them as only car in the household. For that purpose, ICE still wins by most measures.

But for a 2nd or multi-car household, often it makes sense to have 2nd/3rd cars as EV.

It will be interesting to know how many EVs are sold as only car in a household vs 2nd car.

whether buying an EV is financially sensible depends on your circumstances

Absolutely, that's why ICE vs EV debates never reach any conclusion :-)

I cannot see how it necessarily makes any sense to have one car as an EV in a multicar household as the purchase of the EV will probably be expensive and again usage of that car is the factor

AS regards the arguments never reaching any conclusion again it seems to come down on price verses like for like models especially for private buyers. Citroen have announced that they are going to produce an electric C3 with a comparable price so if they can do it so can others. It would certainly help change buyers mindset.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - alan1302
‘ EVs cannot (yet) manage 500 miles on one fill’ What’s the relevance of 500 miles? Is that a regular daily requirement for lots of people? 300 is a long day for me, and I’d expect to do that with a maximum of 30 minutes on a public charger.

Hopefuly commercail vehicles will get some longer ranges soon - I do more than 300 miles in a day once or twice a month in a van - I don't want to have to stop for more than 10/15 minutes so will be interesting to see what happens over the coming years.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - mcb100
‘And (answering a different point) only a fraction of commuters are able to plug in their EV when they get home.’

Figures vary between which source you choose, but somewhere between two-thirds and three-quarters of houses in the UK have access to off street parking. It’s quite a large fraction.

As per the statement from further up of EV’s and solar panels not ‘being green’, I’d love to see your sources. And I don’t mean randoms from YouTube.

Edited by mcb100 on 16/06/2023 at 13:03

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - veloceman
They contain lots of lead and cadmium within the the glass they are made of. Currently unable to be recycled therefore go to landfill.
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - mcb100
So the 30 years of emission free energy production is worthless because they contain lead and cadmium?
I know nothing about them, but it only takes a couple of minutes on Google to see that they can and are being recycled.
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Andrew-T
So the 30 years of emission free energy production is worthless because they contain lead and cadmium? I know nothing about them, but it only takes a couple of minutes on Google to see that they can and are being recycled.

No doubt the glass containing the lead and cadmium is recyclable. The non-green bit comes with the extensive mining of those metals, which can be (and usually is) a very messy business.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Adampr
They contain lots of lead and cadmium within the the glass they are made of. Currently unable to be recycled therefore go to landfill.

The average solar panel contains about half an ounce of lead (in the solder) and zero cadmium.

The frames are aluminium, so fully recyclable, the glazing is, well, glass and the innards are mostly silicon and a little bit of silver.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Terry W

Why pay £10-13k extra for an Astra - simple:

Fuel cost savings of up to £140 per 1000 miles based on 50mpg and £7 per gallon assuming PV charging at home. Individual circumstances are different, but assuming (say) 10k pa = £1400 pa saving.

The big issue - most cars are company purchased. Benefit in kind at 20% for EV Astra is ~£200pa, for petrol ~£2000. The saving for the company car driver doubles if they are a higher rate payer to £3600. Tax rates may of course change!

There are ~30m cars registered in the UK with an average life of ~15 years. UK car sales are ~2m pa. Assuming new cars are kept for ~3 years, only 1 in 5 drive a car bought new. The rest drive s/h cars of varying age and ownership histories.

Thus the cost of new cars is of academic interest to most folk - s/h values are more important. The price and tax arrangements for EVs are of interest only to the 20% of motorists who can afford them.

The argument that at least ICE have a more stable s/h value may be flawed. If over the next few years the infrastructure is improved, the value of ICE will decline rapidly as EV becomes the default choice. S/h EV may carry a value premium.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1

Why pay £10-13k extra for an Astra - simple:

Fuel cost savings of up to £140 per 1000 miles based on 50mpg and £7 per gallon assuming PV charging at home. Individual circumstances are different, but assuming (say) 10k pa = £1400 pa saving.

The big issue - most cars are company purchased. Benefit in kind at 20% for EV Astra is ~£200pa, for petrol ~£2000. The saving for the company car driver doubles if they are a higher rate payer to £3600. Tax rates may of course change!

There are ~30m cars registered in the UK with an average life of ~15 years. UK car sales are ~2m pa. Assuming new cars are kept for ~3 years, only 1 in 5 drive a car bought new. The rest drive s/h cars of varying age and ownership histories.

Thus the cost of new cars is of academic interest to most folk - s/h values are more important. The price and tax arrangements for EVs are of interest only to the 20% of motorists who can afford them.

The argument that at least ICE have a more stable s/h value may be flawed. If over the next few years the infrastructure is improved, the value of ICE will decline rapidly as EV becomes the default choice. S/h EV may carry a value premium.

Your fuel saving although heavily loaded in favour of electric is surely about 9 years at £1400pa equals £12600 before you save the purchase price?

I think ICE cars will increase in value as their availability declines taxes permitted, whereas what we do know about current EVs is documented as being not desirable to most second hand buyers.

The cost of new EVs is perhaps academic to most folk .but unless they take a serious depreciation their second hand values are still proportionately higher.

There are perhaps many retiring folk and folk who are in the market for a new car as a reward for a hard earned pension what is going to persuade them to buy electric. They are not going to purchase a car that costs more than an ICE?

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Adampr

Why pay £10-13k extra for an Astra - simple:

Fuel cost savings of up to £140 per 1000 miles based on 50mpg and £7 per gallon assuming PV charging at home. Individual circumstances are different, but assuming (say) 10k pa = £1400 pa saving.

The big issue - most cars are company purchased. Benefit in kind at 20% for EV Astra is ~£200pa, for petrol ~£2000. The saving for the company car driver doubles if they are a higher rate payer to £3600. Tax rates may of course change!

There are ~30m cars registered in the UK with an average life of ~15 years. UK car sales are ~2m pa. Assuming new cars are kept for ~3 years, only 1 in 5 drive a car bought new. The rest drive s/h cars of varying age and ownership histories.

Thus the cost of new cars is of academic interest to most folk - s/h values are more important. The price and tax arrangements for EVs are of interest only to the 20% of motorists who can afford them.

The argument that at least ICE have a more stable s/h value may be flawed. If over the next few years the infrastructure is improved, the value of ICE will decline rapidly as EV becomes the default choice. S/h EV may carry a value premium.

Your fuel saving although heavily loaded in favour of electric is surely about 9 years at £1400pa equals £12600 before you save the purchase price?

I think ICE cars will increase in value as their availability declines taxes permitted, whereas what we do know about current EVs is documented as being not desirable to most second hand buyers.

The cost of new EVs is perhaps academic to most folk .but unless they take a serious depreciation their second hand values are still proportionately higher.

There are perhaps many retiring folk and folk who are in the market for a new car as a reward for a hard earned pension what is going to persuade them to buy electric. They are not going to purchase a car that costs more than an ICE?

Sorry to say it, but cash buyers are such a small and unprofitable market that they are largely insignificant to manufacturers.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1

"""Sorry to say it, but cash buyers are such a small and unprofitable market that they are largely insignificant to manufacturers.!!!

I suppose 0% finance is also and the folks who take out a PCP or similar and pay it off before it kicks in. A lot of folks me included do not want to know borrowing. Any sale is a profit surely

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Terry W

A swift look at a lease site shows that for a typical family hatchback doing ~10k pa, EVs are ~ £100-150 per month (£1200-1800 pa) more expensive than petrol. Lease companies are competitive profit makers, not charities!

The price premium can be at least partially offset simply by the difference in fuel costs. In some cases it will either now, or may in the future, help avoid ULEZ type emission zone charges.

Although money is a major influence on decision making for many, some will happily pay £50-100 a month to feel good about their contribution towards saving the planet.

It is no different to those who want a premium motor (status driven etc) although they may be functionally no better than a car costing half the money.

I agree with your comment re borrowing generally, but renting a car may be an entirely rational choice. It eliminates depreciation risk, adds certainty to monthly budgets, allows a new motor every x years, avoids the need to accumulate capital first.

That it is not for you is a personal opinion obviously not shared by many.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - alan1302

The cost of new EVs is perhaps academic to most folk .but unless they take a serious depreciation their second hand values are still proportionately higher.

I'm sure people on here have said Evs have high depreciation and you said Croen are releasing an EV at a comparable price to a car they make so costs are coming down.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1

"""Figures vary between which source you choose, but somewhere between two-thirds and three-quarters of houses in the UK have access to off street parking. It’s quite a large fraction.

Figures do vary but I think it is probably the other way around but if we compromise on 50 50 one hell of a lot don't

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Lee Power
‘And (answering a different point) only a fraction of commuters are able to plug in their EV when they get home.’ Figures vary between which source you choose, but somewhere between two-thirds and three-quarters of houses in the UK have access to off street parking.

Not all off street parking allows installation of an EV charger - there will be a lot of people in the same group that even with off street parking can't plug in at home.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - badbusdriver

"""Figures vary between which source you choose, but somewhere between two-thirds and three-quarters of houses in the UK have access to off street parking. It’s quite a large fraction.

Figures do vary but I think it is probably the other way around but if we compromise on 50 50 one hell of a lot don't

Obviously not representative of the whole country, particularly bigger towns and cities, but out of my 198 customers (excluding commercial properties), 173 have off street parking. On 4 of those, installing a charger might be tricky due to the parking not being immediately next to the house.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Terry W

Detached and semis make up ~ 55% of UK dwelling stock. Most of these will have off road parking and the ability to charge off road.

20% are flats - some will have off road parking and the ability to instal charging - although who pays may be an issue.

25% are terraced - most of these will be unable to charge off road, many will be Victorian or older.

A reasonable working assumption is that ~60-70% could charge off-road if chargers are installed.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - mcb100
My source of data -

www.field-dynamics.co.uk/25-drivers-no-off-street-.../
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1

My source the 2021 Census

Housing, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics (ons.gov.uk)

There is considerable variation London for instance 50% live in flats Maisonettes apartments

About 57% live in detached and semi detached. A fair proportion of which will have no off road access .especially some semis

43% live in terraces flat maisonette apartment caravan or mobile homes so little off road access

23% of all households have no cars

So perhaps we are both wrong and 50 50 seems about right?

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - daveyK_UK
As someone who can end up driving 600 miles in a day, I am waiting until Electrics can offer 400 miles in the real world without charge.

400 miles of driving and I will buy an electric.

It also ideally needs to be a van MPV so I can get big stuff in the boot

As the electric Berlingo / Doblo / Rifter / Combo Life does a max of 155miles and less in the real world in the winter, it looks like I have a long wait.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Terry W

We spend far too much time analysing the economics of car buying decisions.

Were money the key driver we would nearly all (90%?) be driving Fiesta/Yaris size cars which would be kept for at least 10 years. They are functionally entirely capable, cheap to run and long term ownership minimises depreciation.

Exceptions - large families, caravans, boats, horses, work tools etc.

Yet folk buy cars which are unnecessarily faster, heavier, bigger, much more costly to run, and change every few years for a newer bigger model.

Money is one influence on new car purchase decisions - status, self image, different quality vs cost balance, gizmos etc etc are at least as large a determinant.

EV vs ICE argument is no different - different assumptions can prove the EV choice is financially rational or foolish. Simply - money is not the only factor.

Pensioners - the UK has significant wealth inequality which almost certainly increases with age - many pensioners may be sitting on mortgage free house, pension fund and other assets worth £1m++. They can easily decide to pay an EV premium.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1

We spend far too much time analysing the economics of car buying decisions.

Were money the key driver we would nearly all (90%?) be driving Fiesta/Yaris size cars which would be kept for at least 10 years. They are functionally entirely capable, cheap to run and long term ownership minimises depreciation.

Exceptions - large families, caravans, boats, horses, work tools etc.

Yet folk buy cars which are unnecessarily faster, heavier, bigger, much more costly to run, and change every few years for a newer bigger model.

Money is one influence on new car purchase decisions - status, self image, different quality vs cost balance, gizmos etc etc are at least as large a determinant.

EV vs ICE argument is no different - different assumptions can prove the EV choice is financially rational or foolish. Simply - money is not the only factor.

Pensioners - the UK has significant wealth inequality which almost certainly increases with age - many pensioners may be sitting on mortgage free house, pension fund and other assets worth £1m++. They can easily decide to pay an EV premium.

Do we though? As you go through life from your first working day to your last your income changes and your so called disposable income changes on your outgoings. Starting with perhaps bangers getting married still with bangers? a mortgage then kids come along with all that expense. Than perhaps you get on in work or change for a better income or the wife goes back to work after the kids. Changing cars as you go to suit the size of the family. Then the kids are going into apprentice ships in my case and helping pay their way and the mortgage is paid off. Suddenly there is perhaps a bigger disposable income a better holiday for 2 or a better car if that is what you want. Bit usually the car is based on needs and what you can afford. The kids leave home but you still find yourself paying out to help them perhaps with their own car or a bit of holiday money but all depending on what you can afford. You retire and if you are perhaps lucky in life or indeed paid your way towards a good retirement you have a comfortable lifestyle, which is where we find ourselves. We are still helping children and now grandchildren as best we can but not stupid and not interfering with their lives. I still do not waste money on cars but confess to perhaps wasting a lot in this area chopping and changing but that's life. If I did change our car in the future I would not buy a new car and not a second hand EV for many reasons mainly the unknown with this tech. My driving needs and perhaps patience messing about with an EV charging are just not for me

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - FP

"If I did change our car in the future I would not buy a new car and not a second hand EV for many reasons mainly the unknown with this tech. My driving needs and perhaps patience messing about with an EV charging are just not for me"

Of course, as has been continually noted, much of the issue of whether to switch to EV is subjective.

As far as I'm concerned, as a relatively comfortably-off pensioner, I have no problem with the technology of EVs, which even with the irritations of touch-screen controls etc., is basically much simpler than ICEs.

Nor do I see why "messing around with an EV charging" is particularly challenging - it's just a bit different from filling up with liquid fuel, especially if most of your charging is done at home, as I expect it would be for most people. But you do have to get familiar with what to do when you plan a long journey.

If I found an EV I liked the only real consideration for me would be the cost of the vehicle, but at the moment that is the deal-breaker.

Edited by FP on 17/06/2023 at 13:24

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - alan1302
As the electric Berlingo / Doblo / Rifter / Combo Life does a max of 155miles and less in the real world in the winter, it looks like I have a long wait.

And that's without a heavy load in as well...our Combo Life will generally have to lug round a heavy electirc wheelchair....I expect in winter with some extra load in then you are going to lose a good chunk of range...we will have to keep the diesel one for a bit longer yet.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - mcb100
‘ 400 miles of driving and I will buy an electric. ’

2027, according to a recent press release from Toyota announcing solid state batteries. But at a price premium over lithium ion.

www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyo.../
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - movilogo

1000 km range in 10 minutes of charging.

That will be game changer for EV.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Ethan Edwards

1000 km range in 10 minutes of charging.

That will be game changer for EV.

Really? How about a 500mile daily commute towing an 8 berth caravan at 100 mph seven days a week?

Care to get grounded in reality for a moment?

95% of people have less than a 35 mile daily commute. Easily do able by EV.

Mines 75 miles and I've been 100% EV for upwards of two years. No issues whatsoever.

Funnily enough I've never felt the need to leap out of bed and 3am and drive 600 miles to Hull and back. I've only ever needed to home charge. If you've an average or even a long commute and access to electricity at a fixed parking spot or garage. Then nothing, nothing is stopping you going EV right now.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - sammy1

""" Then nothing, nothing is stopping you going EV right now."""

Perhaps only the price of the car and in general it seems people do not want to buy them. The tax system will change on EV and so will the price of electric to run them. May be an EV more aimed at the mass market other than Chinese makes. But I do get your point that EV is suitable for many commuters

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Metropolis.
I regularly drive 600 miles in one journey, the convenience of fossil fuels is fantastic, quick fill up and on my way. EV is not progress it’s regression.

Would dread parking an EV at the airport, what if you get stuck in traffic on the way there and lose most of your charge? The journey back home is going to be miserable.
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - alan1302
I regularly drive 600 miles in one journey, the convenience of fossil fuels is fantastic, quick fill up and on my way. EV is not progress it’s regression. Would dread parking an EV at the airport, what if you get stuck in traffic on the way there and lose most of your charge? The journey back home is going to be miserable.

An EV would lose minimal charge in traffic...if it's not moving then it's not using much.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - mcb100
90 minutes basically stationary on an indicated 28 degree (centigrade) M62 the other day, climate control set to a nice 18 degrees. Total range loss? 1%.
And nothing coming out the back gassing the driver behind.
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Ethan Edwards
I regularly drive 600 miles in one journey,

I admire your bladder control. 600 miles is upwards of twelve hours on our congested roads, And the entire country (Lands End to John O'Groats) is only 603 Mile's as the crow flies.

Personally I need to stop and have a splash n dash and or a snack. Maybe every two or three hours. Recharge whilst that's happening is a convenient use of time. Id be doing that even driving a petrol car. It's an old guy thing.

But hey 12 hours non stop..kudos to you.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Adampr
I regularly drive 600 miles in one journey,

I admire your bladder control. 600 miles is upwards of twelve hours on our congested roads, And the entire country (Lands End to John O'Groats) is only 603 Mile's as the crow flies.

Personally I need to stop and have a splash n dash and or a snack. Maybe every two or three hours. Recharge whilst that's happening is a convenient use of time. Id be doing that even driving a petrol car. It's an old guy thing.

But hey 12 hours non stop..kudos to you.

Are you seriously suggesting you don't do 5 laps of the M25 every Sunday? It's great fun as long you don't stop for lunch or a wee.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Metropolis.
I include brief loo/fuel stops in that. Lands end to John O Groats is about 840 miles. (That is not my route!)
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - alan1302

Then nothing, nothing is stopping you going EV right now.

Day to day for work an EV would be fine - but not for weekends and days out. The only suitable EV for us would be a Citroen Berlingo/Peugeot Rifter/Vauxhall Combo Life and that's only got a max range of 155 miles. By the time you have a passneger and a heavy electric wheelchair in the back then that will be reduced...as it would on colder days. So a day trip to Scarborough is about 145 miles...so you will need to charge half way...but there are not many there...especially on the front...and they would need wheelchair access...not as easy as just saying nothing stopping you get an EV. There are a lot of factors that stop people getting an EV at the moment...and there are a lot of niche uses for cars where an EV is not suitable at the moment and it seems wrong that the government is pushing to change too soon before the public/manufactuerers and the charging network are ready.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Terry W

Although I am very supportive of the transition to EV, use and timing are of the essence.

I frequently (1 or 2 times a month) drive 250-350 in a day to see family and friends - typically Bristol to Herts or Essex. Winter we drive (or fly) to Spain for a couple of months.

Until either 300 mile+ range is sensibly affordable, or a reliable fast charging infrastructure available, it is unlikely I would go full EV.

Both these barriers will be overcome through better cheaper batteries or infrastructure development - the only question is when. I would guess in 3-5 years.

Whilst I could choose to buy a new car, I resent an expensive "asset" depreciating by 20% the moment I drive out of the showroom. So typically I buy s/h up to ~18 months old.

If I replaced my 5 year old car today it would probably be with a petrol.

In the next 2-3 years I would consider a PHEV and complement that with PVs on the roof to make local mileage zero cost.

In 4-5 years any purchase will almost certainly be EV

Second car does less than 2k pa so current car will be kept as back up till it drops. EV replacement is unlikely as low mileage makes it wholly uneconomic,

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Ethan Edwards

Then your in luck. This year MG are bring out a big battery version of the MG4 having 312 miles range AND the range starts at less than most ICE cars.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - movilogo

95% of people have less than a 35 mile daily commute. Easily do able by EV.

But not doable for the rest 5% of the journey. If I have only one car in household, it needs to meet 100% of my journey needs.

90% of the time I'm alone in the car and other seats have no use. But that does not mean I am better off with a 2-wheeler.

EVs still cost more and offers less convenience & value compared to ICE. If EV prices come down and battery technology improves, the public will start buying them in good numbers and ICE cars will face gradual death. This happens with most technologies when one tech is substantially better than other older techs.

New Vauxhall Astra Electric - daveyK_UK
Norwich to Swansea with various stop offs and diversions along the way to see different company’s (mainly in Leicester and Shrewsbury) and finish off in a hotel on the outskirts of Bristol.

That’s my 600 mile trip.
Thankfully it’s not a regular occurrence and in the summer with the light nights it’s much more enjoyable than in the dark.


I want an electric car, but not yet,

Price and range are the 2 stumbling blocks
New Vauxhall Astra Electric - Ethan Edwards

Norwich to Swansea 287 miles..6hours 2 minutes including 54minutes charging .Two stops 16mins at Burton Latimer A6/A14 junction and 49 minutes at Evesham

Less stops if you had the MG4 that's just my shorter ranged Mokka-e. Arrive with 13% battery remaining.

That's direct but off route you'd find chargers all over the place. It's all do able..that's my take on it. I p/exd my ice car in 2021...not missed it once.

Edited by Ethan Edwards on 22/06/2023 at 21:45