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Which is more suitable? I am getting caught by this ULEZ thing and planning ahead but have next to no idea.
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More suitable for what? Plugin is good if you can charge at home and most of your journeys are less than, say, 30 miles. 'Self charging ' is better for general driving around. Most LEZs will let modern petrol cars in.
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Do you realise that for the ULEZ you can run a registration number through the system to see if the vehicle complies and is therefore not charged? tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/
This can be useful if you have a vehicle in mind and before you buy it.
As Adam says, a lot of modern and not-so-modern petrol cars don't need to pay. My 2014 Mazda CX-5 is one of them - not that I intend to take it into London.
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Which is more suitable for you between a self charge* or plug in hybrid rather depends on your circumstances. If you can charge at home and/or can charge at work, plug in would probably be the best choice. But they are quite a lot more to buy than self charge hybrids. And if you can't charge at home or at work, and don't fancy relying on the public charging network, then obviously self charge is the way to go.
*By self charge, i mean a full self charge hybrid rather than a mild hybrid (MHEV). Think Toyota Yaris, Honda Jazz or Renault Clio E Tech rather than Fiesta.
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No need to pour a fortune into a costly hybrid if you’re not doing a lot of miles, my 13yr old Toyota Avensis 1.8 petrol meets ULEZ regs. Cars are an absolute waste of money, they plummet in value if you buy new or nearly new, especially at today’s horrendously overinflated prices. Plenty of good robust petrol Japanese models meet the ULEZ conditions and can be bought for under £5,000.
Edited by SLO76 on 06/06/2023 at 16:05
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That's a very useful link. I see my old 2007 Focus is exempt although I expect the bar to be raised in the future. But for now at least, a ULEZ exempt car does not need to cost much.
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For the moment (and bear in mind all the ULEZs are essentially just starting), they will allow in (without penalty) EU4 petrol cars and EU6 diesels.
Aside from a few oddities, that means most petrol cars that first appeared from the early 2000s onwards and diesels from around 2015-16. My 17yo Mazda3 1.6 petrol is EU4 and thus can enter, if I wanted / needed to, which I may once in a while.
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The bigger problem being if you are a typical LCV driver living in a city, with a pre 2016 van, pre euro 6, you have to go out and buy a euro 6 compliant diesel van at massively inflated prices. And there's little choice, desperately few diesel alternatives on the market, those that are are your smaller van, Berlingo etc. A lot of discussion on the builders, plumbers, forums about this. Look at the price of small to medium vans these days!
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The bigger problem being if you are a typical LCV driver living in a city, with a pre 2016 van, pre euro 6, you have to go out and buy a euro 6 compliant diesel van at massively inflated prices. And there's little choice, desperately few diesel alternatives on the market, those that are are your smaller van, Berlingo etc. A lot of discussion on the builders, plumbers, forums about this. Look at the price of small to medium vans these days!
Given how all trade forums seem to be people boasting about how much they make for how little work, my heart bleeds!
They need Metro vans.
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Yeah Bazza, this is the problem I am running into at the minute with my Van, I guess i am thinking I need to invest more incase they change the goal posts again in few years, I heard the plug in hybrid is more suitable for long distance driving but hybrid in general is better for cities. to be honest i don't much about much when it comes to this type of thing and am being forced into it by legislation as much are as anything.
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Yeah Bazza, this is the problem I am running into at the minute with my Van, I guess i am thinking I need to invest more incase they change the goal posts again in few years, I heard the plug in hybrid is more suitable for long distance driving but hybrid in general is better for cities. to be honest i don't much about much when it comes to this type of thing and am being forced into it by legislation as much are as anything.
The gardener for my housing development just bought a 'new' van to replace his 8+yo Transit. He baulked at one replacement (can't remember what it was) at £25k for whatever with 50,000 miles on the clock, and settled for a slightly narrower, but longer panel van with about 30k on the clock for £20k. Not cheap at the moment - and that was for a bog-standard diesel.
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Yeah there just trying to kill tradesmen to be honest, I worked in the army for a number of years, but for the last while, working as a plumber now the last while with my own business but the way things are going the next while, Im probably going to have to seriously consider what to do next. 25k sounds very steep, especially for bog standard diesel like you say.
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Not sure if ULEZ will come in yet, as far as im aware its going through court
But if it doesnt theres talk of road pricing instead to make up the financial loss
The cameras apparently can do both as well as catching drivers doing whatever they shouldnt behind the wheel
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Firstly, remember that the ULEZ is just the London version, there are similar schemes and charges in other places already,
Birmingham, Bristol, Oxford, Bath, Glasgow and several others are on the list, though some are only charging fees go commercial vehicles, though that includes cars on business.
In Oxford, ALL non electric cars are charged (excuse the pun), though older cars are charged more.
Thinking back to my Physics A level, I am bit offended by the concept of 'self charging' hybrids, unless you plug it in overnight, the battery in a hybrid is 'charged' because the system recovers energy as the car brakes or slows, that energy was initially provided by the petrol. The idea of 'self-charging' is more marketing than reality.
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Most current ULEZ proposals are intended to remove vehicles that emit NOx and/or particulates. Are there any ULEZ's where the bar for petrol is later than 2005/Euro 4?
Oxford's proposed scheme, AIUI, is about congestion and the endemic traffic jams in/around the city.
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The idea of 'self-charging' is more marketing than reality.
As the owner of a Superb PHEV I can assure you that hybrids are not a gimmick.
We drove a Corolla 2 litre (180 PS auto) first and we were pretty impressed with the experience. It averaged about 55 mpg on a route that our existing car, a Superb 1.4 TSi (150 PS manual) would probably have done in the mid to high 40's.
But the Superb PHEV (217 PS) does just as well when the battery is showing zero miles and the car is working like a Toyota hybrid. When we are on holiday it will average in the high 50's driving it like that when the 1.4 Superb would have managed in the high 40's on exactly the same roads.
So about 20% better mpg.
But these "mild" hybrids sold by most manufacturers are a total waste of space. Only fitted to make stop/start more reliable and other than the occasional thimble of petrol saved have no virtues.
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I wasn't suggesting it was a gimmick, but unless you plug-in the hybrid to charge the battery, ALL the energy you use is initially provided by the fuel (petrol or diesel). You recharge the battery going downhill, but you must use petrol to get to the top of the hill in the first place.
It really is Physics 101, energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another.
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Thinking back to my Physics A level, I am bit offended by the concept of 'self charging' hybrids, unless you plug it in overnight, the battery in a hybrid is 'charged' because the system recovers energy as the car brakes or slows, that energy was initially provided by the petrol. The idea of 'self-charging' is more marketing than reality.
The hybrids I know of have the traction battery charged by the ICE when motoring, as well as when braking (although I can't see how that can be more than minimal, unless going down a very long steep hill).
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The idea of 'self-charging' is more marketing than reality.
I watched a YT video not too long ago where a Renault Clio ETech self charge hybrid was used solely in an urban environment over the course of about an hour, it achieved 86mpg.
Not sure exactly what a solely ICE version would have done in a similar scenario, but I guarantee it wouldn't have been more than 50mpg.
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<< I watched a YT video not too long ago where a Renault Clio ETech self charge hybrid was used solely in an urban environment over the course of about an hour, it achieved 86mpg. >>
I'm a long way behind the EV game, but I presume that this mpg figure is a simple calculation from the distance travelled and the amount lost from the tank, making no allowance for the amount of charge in the battery at the start and finish of the hour ? If that is so, it is rather misleading in absolute terms, but probably effective advertising ?
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It's a "self-charging" hybrid. No need to recharge the battery as it is low capacity and charged from regenerative braking.
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It's a "self-charging" hybrid. No need to recharge the battery as it is low capacity and charged from regenerative braking.
Indeed!
And, AFAIK, the video was independent and had nothing to do with Renault. Feel free to have a look:
watch
(YouTube)
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It's a "self-charging" hybrid. No need to recharge the battery as it is low capacity and charged from regenerative braking.
Well, partly. It's mainly charged from the on-board petrol engine. Regenerative braking only returns a relatively small amount of charge. "Self charging" doesn't mean that the battery recharges itself, it means that the car as a whole self-charges it, i.e. via the associated ICE.
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It's a "self-charging" hybrid. No need to recharge the battery as it is low capacity and charged from regenerative braking.
Well, partly. It's mainly charged from the on-board petrol engine. Regenerative braking only returns a relatively small amount of charge. "Self charging" doesn't mean that the battery recharges itself, it means that the car as a whole self-charges it, i.e. via the associated ICE.
Either way, I think we can agree that measuring the amount of fuel used to cover a certain distance is a perfectly valid way of assessing MPG in this case.
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Toyota certainly use the Atkinson cycle on their ICE, but when combined with the leccy motor gives startling performance. The Atkinson cycle means the ICE performs at way below its possible limits, at a tremendous improvement in economy, but when you're cruising at 70MPH on a motorway you only need a few BHP.
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It's a "self-charging" hybrid. No need to recharge the battery as it is low capacity and charged from regenerative braking.
Well, partly. It's mainly charged from the on-board petrol engine. Regenerative braking only returns a relatively small amount of charge. "Self charging" doesn't mean that the battery recharges itself, it means that the car as a whole self-charges it, i.e. via the associated ICE.
OK, I get all that. But in the example quoted, a Clio managed 86mpg, at a guess about 30mpg 'better' than the ICE equivalent. If the small on-board battery is being charged by the petrol engine, I am very surprised if those 30mpg can be recovered just from regenerative braking. You can't get back 100% of the charge put in by the engine ?
Doesn't seem to add up, unless conventional cars waste a lot of energy via their brakes ?
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It's a "self-charging" hybrid. No need to recharge the battery as it is low capacity and charged from regenerative braking.
Yes, but. Can it be fully charged at all times ? If not, it may be at a different level of charge at the start and end of any given period. Therefore the 'mpg' figure may not be an exact indication of how much energy has been used.
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It's a "self-charging" hybrid. No need to recharge the battery as it is low capacity and charged from regenerative braking.
Yes, but. Can it be fully charged at all times ? If not, it may be at a different level of charge at the start and end of any given period. Therefore the 'mpg' figure may not be an exact indication of how much energy has been used.
The battery in a Clio E-Tech is only 1.2kWh (less than twice the size of the one on my e bike). It takes on and discharges power so frequently that whether or not it was fully charged at the start of the test* would make such a small difference over the duration of the test as to be irrelevant. If the test was over 10-15 minutes, maybe starting with the battery fully charged could make a useful difference, but not over the course of about an hour and twenty minutes.
*In theory, if the test was to start immediately after coming down a long steep hill, it might be possible to ensure you started with a full charge of the battery. But the town/city used for the test did not appear at all hilly, so how much charge was in the battery at the start would have been mainly down to chance.
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Thinking back to my Physics A level, I am bit offended by the concept of 'self charging' hybrids, unless you plug it in overnight, the battery in a hybrid is 'charged' because the system recovers energy as the car brakes or slows, that energy was initially provided by the petrol. The idea of 'self-charging' is more marketing than reality.
The term self charging is used because there are still far to many people who don't understand how they work & think you have to plug them in.
As a Toyota " self charging " hybrid owner for the last 15 months, I've lost count of the amount of people asking me where does it plug in / how do you charge it up?
My default answer is now " you put petrol in it & drive it as a normal automatic, the car sorts out the hybrid EV stuff itself "
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"The term self charging is used because there are still far to many people who don't understand how they work & think you have to plug them in.""
Agree. The whole motor industry of late needs to wake up and simplify what their products are about. All this BEV. PHEV and the rest is just a PAIN to the average car buyer and it is little wonder that people will not buy products they do not understand. Very soon the alphabet will not be sufficient for some makes to put a label on a car!
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I had assumed the hybrid system in most cars was a bit like KERS in F1 - a small battery which fills in performance gaps to optimise engine set up mainly for economy (KERS boosts performance not economy)
Plug in hybrid typically has much larger battery which may give a range of 20-40 miles - means that for many owners all local mileage can be done on electric only usually at lower cost the fossil fuels.
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Your first paragraph describes a mild hybrid. They won’t run on electric alone, just provide assistance when accelerating, particularly from a standstill.
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