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I see the app is being turned off for pre-2016 models as a result of the 2G networks being phased out. I take it SLO's Leaf is a younger model and won't be affected.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-68426263
Seems the functionality offered by the app is very useful come charging time. It's not just EVs though that have apps. Newer ICE have them where you can select various options and see data. As these cars age I guess it's to be expected that manufacturers won't keep old software up to date. Microsoft don't support ageing operating systems.
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With most Phone/tablet OSes, you're lucky if you get 8 years of use at all out of them before most of the (non-built-in) apps no longer function, some because their app software updates don't work on older OSes (I suspect that's deliberate) and often just because the updates - even when 'compatible' - are so bloated that the OS / hardware cannot cope, making the app go slower than a BBC Basic computer.
Even though Microsoft don't update their phone/tablet OSes any more, at least some of their add-on apps are still functional, albeit with no updates for ages.
The problem comes if current information is needed for the app to work 100%, rather like my old Nokia 620's (win 8.1) HERE Maps, which amazingly still updates the map information, but has no 'live traffic' data to use when working.
A useful tool for general route-mapping (like a cycle map/computer, to replace a paper map and to be able to find where you are [GPS still works]), no good if the route it says you should go likely has heavy traffic or an accident scene to avoid.
The app (and phone) itself works almost as quick as when it was new/apps were updated, its just that no new apps can be added or the phone ever reinstalled, because all the non-built-in apps would never be able to brought back.
Even though Win-OS PCs (laptops included) are no longer updated from Win 8 downwards, my desktop PC mostly works fine and only a few programs won't work, mainly because the manufacturers of the most popular ones know there's still many users around and money to be made, so they make their software compatible back to Win7, for example.
As the expert in the article says, it's a disgrace that the makers built-in no backwards compatibility or alternate system of comms and software so the apps wouldn't become obsolete in such a short time. Note also that this is within the 10 year window that car manufacturers are supposed to offer a full range of spare parts for their cars after they go out of production. To me, that sounds like getting out of your responsibilities
I somehow doubt if this will be the last instance this sort of thing happens as cars become more digital, even ICE ones (as you say). I mean, why bother with pesky physical equipment obsolescence when apps can do it for a 10th of the cost and be re-applied across each new generation of car for even less, using the old software as a template?
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That article is from 2016 with 2G being switched off at the end of that year. The cars were less than 5 years old at that point. Mk1s in the UK will now be 7 - 13 years old.
Maybe Nissan UK feel it okay to cut and run, or maybe the subsidised fix didn't work as expected in the US?
The Mk2 is now considered old tech. Doesn't inspire confidence does it.
Edited by Chris M on 04/03/2024 at 16:45
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I see the app is being turned off for pre-2016 models as a result of the 2G networks being phased out. I take it SLO's Leaf is a younger model and won't be affected.
Yup, unaffected as ours is a 2020 Mk II.
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I see the app is being turned off for pre-2016 models as a result of the 2G networks being phased out. I take it SLO's Leaf is a younger model and won't be affected.
Yup, unaffected as ours is a 2020 Mk II.
Let's hope yours doesn't (say) have a 3G connection-only capability, because it probably won't be that long until TPTB get rid of 3G connection.
As I said, most software associated with phones is often on a much shorter useful lifecycle than PCs, so let's also hope that Nissan learned their lesson and bothered to make the app upgradeable in line with that 10 year parts availability rule.
Don't bank on it though - I mean it's not as though most car firms provide more than 3 years of software fixes and 'upgrades' to satnav systems, and even afterwards charge exorbitant yearly amounts for what often are just map updates and not much to improve the operability of the software itself.
More often than not, you'd be quids in buy getting a brand new smartphone every 3 years and paying yourself for a decent satnav app.
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3G is well on its way out already with both EE and Vodafone's 3G switch off underway at the moment.
The 2G mobile network will remain for some years yet - there are many industrial applications which rely on it, along with a lot of the "Smart" meters the utility companies have been so keen for us to have....
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3G is well on its way out already with both EE and Vodafone's 3G switch off underway at the moment.
The 2G mobile network will remain for some years yet - there are many industrial applications which rely on it, along with a lot of the "Smart" meters the utility companies have been so keen for us to have....
The problem is that 2G is very slow for apps for smartphones, and every update on an app just bloats it more, making it even slower, often to the point they are unusable. My old tablet went that way. My Win 8.1 phone hasn't only because it got few software updates for the apps.
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3G is well on its way out already with both EE and Vodafone's 3G switch off underway at the moment.
The 2G mobile network will remain for some years yet - there are many industrial applications which rely on it, along with a lot of the "Smart" meters the utility companies have been so keen for us to have....
The problem is that 2G is very slow for apps for smartphones, and every update on an app just bloats it more, making it even slower, often to the point they are unusable. My old tablet went that way. My Win 8.1 phone hasn't only because it got few software updates for the apps.
Doing well to still be working - use to like the Windows phone os. Shame Microsoft gave up on it.
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I don’t really use the app anyway. SWMBO occasional checks how much charge is in it via the app but that’s about it. It heats up almost instantly anyway so we don’t bother pre-heating.
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Milk-float update. I’m now using the Leaf daily after SWMBO commandeered my C class. This isn’t a bad thing though, my commute is now costing a fraction of what it was and the car itself is smooth, comfortable and quick. As a second car I maintain that a good Mk II 40kw Leaf at under £12/£13k is possibly the best option out there. There's less to go wrong, it costs buttons to charge overnight and it drives very well. Supply is outstripping demand on these so they are great value.
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I wouldn't buy a Leaf. Too many problems.
Battery performance drops alarmingly as they age. Couple of examples I've seen with less than 60k on the clock and down to 40 mile range!!
On Board Chargers not the most reliable. Refusal to charge on one was O/C failure of a SMD diode in the charger Pilot line (on the OBC board). Nissan wanted £3.5k to fit a new OBC - we fixed it for pennies with a new diode (although a fair bit of labour to get at it). On another a uP on the OBC board had failed. Couldn't repair that one but managed to find a used OBC for around £1k. Currently looking at a 2016 with faulty PTC heater element. Seems they use a combination of a PTC element and a heat pump - PTC kicks in during cold weather. Nissan want crazy money for the part (thousands) - driver is wearing thick coat and gloves.
Handbrake is also a lousy design - motor in a box that pulls on cables - similar to T27 Avensis. They play up and part is £1k+. We just got one through MoT by opening the box and lubing with GT85.
None of these cars mentioned have done more than 60k.
Heaters seem a weak spot on EVs - hear of lots failing after a few years... extremely expensive.
I live in an upmarket village. Lots of newish, very big and fast EVs around here. Each morning the local school looks like a Panzer division has pulled up outside. All subsidised by the taxpayer through company car tax breaks. All crazy expensive to insure and repair. Who will want/afford to run them in 5-10 years? Given that 50% of UK electricity still comes from fossil fuels exactly how much CO2 is being saved? (what is the efficiency of these things?) How come electricity suppliers can sell overnight electricity at 9p/kWh to EV owners but night rate Economy 7 (which people use to heat their homes via storage radiators) is 18p/kWh ?
Not against EVs - they will be part of the mix, but taxpayer subsidies have created a dysfunctional market.
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Hmm, while I have read about a fair few problems with the Mk I’s particularly the 30kw models, most owners rate them highly for reliability according to forums. The early Mk I’s and the 30kw’s do suffer battery degradation at a higher rate than the rest and are best avoided.
The Mk II’s are however much more durable with plenty of cars with six figures up still showing 12 bars of battery capacity - meaning more than 85% if I’m correct. The local dealer service manager told me he’s only ever seen one in for a warranty claim on the battery pack. I see several being used as taxis locally and haven’t heard any horror stories beyond a few issues with the front camera, which is badly positioned to soak up all the road muck.
In reality the Leaf is a simple thing with few moving parts and little to go wrong, the later cars suffer far lower battery degradation but yes the manufacturers are killing the whole move to electric by being obscenely greedy regarding parts prices. The Renault Zoe has flagged up in headlines a couple of times lately with insane repair costs relating to the internal charger. Renault wanted £6,500 from one owner of a low mileage car to replace what is a relatively simple piece of equipment.
Its nonsense like this that’s killing resale values as the trade price in the risks involved in stocking used EV’s or they avoid them altogether. If manufacturers are serious about the switch to electric then they need to dramatically drop parts prices or the trade and the public will continue to reject them out of justified fear. In time the trade will adapt to repair them at realistic cost, but this industry is just in its infancy thanks to the long warranties given on new ev power packs, a few firms offer battery pack refurbishment at a fraction of the cost of a new battery from the manufacturer but it’ll take time to become widespread.
The handbrake isn’t electric, it’s a manual pedal operated parking brake which doesn’t concern me at all. I also ran a Toyota Avensis with the dreaded electric parking brake for six years without any issues whatsoever and I like in a coastal Scottish town that likes to eat cars.
As for your comment stating that 50% of UK energy comes from fossil fuels, well that’s simply wrong, it’s around half this figure and dropping rapidly. There’s no argument, EV’s are better for the environment. grid.iamkate.com/
As for saying you’re not anti EV, well that’s clearly wrong and much of that is based on incorrect information. Our EV has proven to be utterly reliable to date, it’s very pleasant to drive and it costs buttons to fuel at 7.5p p/kwh overnight. No tax payer subsidy has been received by me, though should any tax payers feel generous I’ll happily take donations.
Edited by SLO76 on 29/04/2024 at 20:54
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There is a big difference between the very early Japanese built Leafs and the UK ones which came from 2013. The early ones are only worth it if very, very cheap as decent examples of the UK ones are not far off in price now.
The early ones had an electric handbrake, after 2013 it is a manual foot one. The fault with the AC charger only appears common in the pre-2013. These have the AC charger behind the back seats, on the later ones it is under the bonnet. Similarly post 2013 have a heat pump and if they do have a PTC they don't seem to fail. Used, working, post 2013 PTC heaters seem to be about £100 on ebay which indicates demand is low. The battery also changed in 2013 to one which doesn't degrade anywhere near as much.
In short, yes, the very early ones do have some common issues and are a bit "proof of concept". However from 2013 on they seem quite cockroach like in their old school Nissan ability to take a lot of abuse (which many do). Yes much of the switchgear appears to come from a 1985 Bluebird but they go on working.
Note the Mk 2 version from 2018 actually carries over most of the Mk 1 on a different body. Floorpan, seats, much of the switchgear (such as the climate panel), etc are all identical. The battery is bigger but identical format and in fact if you unplugged a 62Kwh battery out of a 2024 car and plugged it into a 2014 one off it would go quite happy. It will fit and work.
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The early ones had an electric handbrake, after 2013 it is a manual foot one. The fault with the AC charger only appears common in the pre-2013. These have the AC charger behind the back seats, on the later ones it is under the bonnet. Similarly post 2013 have a heat pump and if they do have a PTC they don't seem to fail. Used, working, post 2013 PTC heaters seem to be about £100 on ebay which indicates demand is low. The battery also changed in 2013 to one which doesn't degrade anywhere near as much.
In short, yes, the very early ones do have some common issues and are a bit "proof of concept". However from 2013 on they seem quite cockroach like in their old school Nissan ability to take a lot of abuse (which many do). Yes much of the switchgear appears to come from a 1985 Bluebird but they go on working.
Robert Llewellyn (Fully Charged) owns an early Japanese built one, had it since new as a test car and liked it so much he decided to buy it. Absolutely nothing has failed (not even a bulb) or gone wrong on it other than battery degradation. Which is why about a year ago he decided to have the battery replaced with a bigger one from a later car rather than replacing the car.
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Quick Look this morning and the grid is using 5.8% fossil fuels at the moment, which is quite impressive. Does make you feel a bit better about your daily commute, even more so when I know none of my hard earned is going into the pockets of some of the worlds most oppressive regimes in the Middle East. OPEC can do one.
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Should perhaps be in the EV thread but fossil fuels accounted for 32.5% of the electricity generation last year. Since the main use of fossil fuels (gas) is to cover the evening peak, charging at night will effectively be lower than this figure.
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Quick Look this morning and the grid is using 5.8% fossil fuels at the moment, which is quite impressive.
Must've been sunny and windy....this morning 33% comes from gas, and a large amount from imports, some of which will have been generated by fossil fuels according to this source....
www.energydashboard.co.uk/live
Your single figure pence per kWh might not be directly from the tax payer, but it is subsidised by the double figure - often around 30 when the standing charge is included - paid by other users, most of whom will be tax payers. They are also the ones currently paying me over 60 tax-free p per kWh for the feed-in-tariff electricity I generate; more than enough to buy the petrol for the fewer than 2k miles a year I now do in my gas guzzler Audi.
Edited by John F on 01/05/2024 at 08:34
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It’s just supply and demand, and skewed by the inability to simply turn generators off as when desired. At night the grid is oversupplied and thus cheapo lekky is available. Leo the Leaf is plugged in and has his internal timer set to midnight, when my 5hrs of 7.5p p/kwh kicks in. He’ll lap up around £1.80 worth to get back to 100% which will see him run for the next two days while leaving a decent backup of around 40%- a fraction of the cost in petrol or diesel.
I do need to calm the beans though as I’m tearing the front tyres up, the acceleration is addictive. I love surprising big Audi’s and BMW’s away from roundabouts and up slip roads.
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Great thread, thank you SLO76. I have owned a Nissan Note Auto since 2012 and driven it from 32K miles to 145K miles without any issues. Driving needs have now changed so buying a 2021 Leaf with 16K miles for £10K. I have read LOTS about EVs and I trust your experience more than the doomsayers. I esp like the silence, one foot driving, minimal service costs, no tax (though that's eaten by rise in ins premium) and no petrol station visits. My wife and I drive the Note and she has never filled it with petrol and is keen to get an EV which we can charge at home as she has no interest in going to the garage when I have to make some long overseas trips next year.
We will be driving about 100 miles per week, locally and 3-4 round trips of 250 miles each year (in-laws!) but could use train if need be. The route is well serviced by Chademo along the M40.
My single most important factor in buying a car is reliability. I hope my Leaf lives up to my Note. Please keep us posted on your Leaf.
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Great thread, thank you SLO76. I have owned a Nissan Note Auto since 2012 and driven it from 32K miles to 145K miles without any issues. Driving needs have now changed so buying a 2021 Leaf with 16K miles for £10K. I have read LOTS about EVs and I trust your experience more than the doomsayers. I esp like the silence, one foot driving, minimal service costs, no tax (though that's eaten by rise in ins premium) and no petrol station visits. My wife and I drive the Note and she has never filled it with petrol and is keen to get an EV which we can charge at home as she has no interest in going to the garage when I have to make some long overseas trips next year.
We will be driving about 100 miles per week, locally and 3-4 round trips of 250 miles each year (in-laws!) but could use train if need be. The route is well serviced by Chademo along the M40.
My single most important factor in buying a car is reliability. I hope my Leaf lives up to my Note. Please keep us posted on your Leaf.
But that's the main limitation of many EVs, especially lower-end and older EVs - they are really only suited to low-use 'shopping', 'short-commute' or 'second' cars, and particularly for people who either have decent (and not too expensive to use) local public charging and/or can afford / physically fit / are allowed to install (legal issues for leaseholders) a home charger, which many people cannot, myself included.
The problem is that those in power and influence pushing the tech on all of us in short order either don't realise this, or don't care. It doesn't help that they are simultaneously making driving for those who cannot afford to change to electric increasingly unaffordable when, ironically, technological advancements should mean the opposite.
Rather like the forced change from gas boilers to (electrically-powered) heat pumps for home heating.
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“ Driving needs have now changed so buying a 2021 Leaf with 16K miles for £10K.”
That’s an excellent buy. The Leaf makes for a great second car but depreciation is huge so you’ve got to buy it well in order to save anything. The best ownership prospects come for those who do a lot of local driving and have a sub 60 mile commute each way. Low mileage users probably won’t save anything due to the higher depreciation overtaking any fuel savings, but yours is cheap so you should do ok.
“ We will be driving about 100 miles per week, locally and 3-4 round trips of 250 miles each year (in-laws!) but could use train if need be. The route is well serviced by Chademo along the M40.”
Use the train. We tried using ours for longer runs, one 250 mile trip to Tattershaw Lakes in Lincolnshire. The car was very smooth and has plenty of power but the range plummets at higher speeds and on longer hills - especially at night and in bad weather. We found the public charging network to be unreliable and over complex however. Every different charger required a different app, mostly needing registration and payment card details - there’s no consistency. Some (ChargePlace Scotland) require a card to be sent through the post before being able to use them, some want you to “confirm charge” online after connection yet in rural areas you can’t always get a signal, we found this at Tattershaw Lakes, the chargers were free but we struggled to get online to confirm charge. All of this is unnecessary, all chargers should be simple tap and go contactless payment systems or a simple button to start but ludicrously many aren’t. All new ones are apparently contactless thanks to government legislation forcing an end to this idiocy.
Public fast chargers are also grossly overpriced, they typically range between 65p p/kwh and 85p, which means you’re paying far more per mile than you would in a petrol or diesel car. Around 30-40% of the chargers we visited were offline too, it’s not viable to rely on them unless you have a Tesla and access to their network which is on another level.
We gave up using the car for longer distance runs, we restrict usage to within a 60 mile radius, which covers commuting and most of our family car needs. But our plans to lease a second ev through my wife’s workplace scheme have been killed off because of the woeful public charging network and a used Merc C class estate was bought instead of a second EV to cover longer runs.
Good luck with your new car.
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I love surprising big Audi’s and BMW’s away from roundabouts and up slip roads.
Some big Audis suprise EVs - (and four driven tyres last longer ;-)
www.autointell.com/News-2004/Feb-2004/Feb-2004-1/F...m
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I also ran a Toyota Avensis with the dreaded electric parking brake for six years without any issues whatsoever and I like in a coastal Scottish town that likes to eat cars.
TBh imo (& I have been running them for 11 years now) the fear of failure (due to replacement cost) of the EPB in the T27 Avensis is much, much higher than the actual failure rate. Changes were made ~2012 (& no doubt continuously refined in later production) to reduce issues largely caused by water ingress into the actuato. Fear also no doubt exacerbated by the way that the sensors in the car are so interlinked that a failure in one can cause a cascade through the system which includes bringing on the EPB warnings even though the fault is not with the EPB.
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A small blow in the exhaust had the dash lit up like a Christmas tree. Daft system, probably caused a few cars to meet their end earlier than they should’ve.
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The cheap single digit electricity is usually only available at night when there is loads of excess floating about. There are some tariffs where it is possible to get it for free at certain times so I am not sure there is any real subsidy there.
Anyone can get cheap electricity now the market has gone back to something near normal - you just won't get it all the time and you won't get it at 5.30pm on a weekday afternoon.
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There are some tariffs where it is possible to get it for free at certain times so I am not sure there is any real subsidy there.
Anyone can get cheap electricity now the market has gone back to something near normal
Electricity is never 'free' and rarely 'cheap'. As I intimated above, any subsidy is the more expensive price paid by other consumers (or indeed the same ones) at other times to the generator.
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There are some tariffs where it is possible to get it for free at certain times so I am not sure there is any real subsidy there.
Anyone can get cheap electricity now the market has gone back to something near normal
Electricity is never 'free' and rarely 'cheap'. As I intimated above, any subsidy is the more expensive price paid by other consumers (or indeed the same ones) at other times to the generator.
I don't think it is a subsidy. It is just the nature of electricity generation that it isn't that easy to turn some off it on and off frequently so at times there is an excess of electricity they need rid of.
You'd still need that peak capacity come what may and if you didn't off load cheap electricity overnight no one would buy it and nothing would be cheaper.
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The cheap single digit electricity is usually only available at night when there is loads of excess floating about. There are some tariffs where it is possible to get it for free at certain times so I am not sure there is any real subsidy there.
Anyone can get cheap electricity now the market has gone back to something near normal - you just won't get it all the time and you won't get it at 5.30pm on a weekday afternoon.
Over here in West Australia there is so much roof top solar that the off peak period is 9am to 3pm! Shoulder period is 9pm to 6am (I think) and peak is the morning and evening periods where people are cooking and having showers. In spring and autumn there is so much day time solar that the electricity company has to send out a signal to people's rooftop solar to remotely turn some off to balance the system.
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Leaf is continuing to be a fault and hassle free commuter and runabout. Range has improved as the weather has (slightly) improved.
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