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Early LEAFs do degrade but they're not "toast".
There are still 2012 examples with 150k+ on the clock running about being useful to someone and still worth £3k.
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Early LEAFs do degrade but they're not "toast".
There are still 2012 examples with 150k+ on the clock running about being useful to someone and still worth £3k.
Yes and some with a range of about 40miles
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Early LEAFs do degrade but they're not "toast".
There are still 2012 examples with 150k+ on the clock running about being useful to someone and still worth £3k.
Yes and some with a range of about 40miles
Well they only had 60-80 to start with; And a range of 40 miles is useful to some people. The point is they are not dead or scrapped and still have monetary worth.
Edited by pd on 25/05/2023 at 21:06
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Early LEAFs do degrade but they're not "toast".
There are still 2012 examples with 150k+ on the clock running about being useful to someone and still worth £3k.
Yes and some with a range of about 40miles
Well they only had 60-80 to start with; And a range of 40 miles is useful to some people. The point is they are not dead or scrapped and still have monetary worth.
Not worth £3k though surely when there are thousands of cars to chose from
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Couple of edits made. Yes it is a discussion forum and people should feel free to challenge what someone has written and being challenged is not necessarily criticism. The other side of the coin is it should be done in a respectful way, in order to keep the forum as friendly as possible.
Thanks
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Early LEAFs do degrade but they're not "toast".
There are still 2012 examples with 150k+ on the clock running about being useful to someone and still worth £3k.
Yes and some with a range of about 40miles
Well they only had 60-80 to start with; And a range of 40 miles is useful to some people. The point is they are not dead or scrapped and still have monetary worth.
Not worth £3k though surely when there are thousands of cars to chose from
Well, clearly they are worth £3k as that's what a reasonable one sells for.
What they aren't is scrap or worthless. If you've got the space to park it I can certainly see the usefulness of an old leaf as a third car or whatever.
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Not including everthing involved in running a car of any propulsion is not a true representation of cost.
Fitting a wall box has cost, solar panels has cost, depreciated asset, visiting the forecourt has implications for my wallet beside buying fuel with 50% tax, and so it goes , I am not sure there is a way to count all this up.
And that is the crux of this matter, what is going to be the real cost of operating a battery car once enough ICE cars have been taxed banned or penalised off the roads, they'll come for the battery cars without doubt.
My own gut feeling is that battery cars are not intended to be a new propulsion of transport for the masses, private transport i suggest will increasingly become a perk for the wealthy only, you only have to look at the ever increasing costs of not just buying your own transport and the taxation burden on top, be it VED or other taxes.
Don't blame anyone who's managed to take advantage of the honeymoon period to have cheap transport, but like everything that time is coming to an end.
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<< My own gut feeling is that battery cars are not intended to be a new propulsion of transport for the masses, private transport i suggest will increasingly become a perk for the wealthy only, >>
That was the way it was, getting on for 100 years ago. If the masses travelled, they used Shanks' pony, a bike or a bus locally, and splashed out occasionally on a train journey. As a consequence most towns have streets of terrace houses with nowhere to keep a car. Getting back to that way of life would be a wrench for many, but not impossible - and it could just help the planet ...
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My own gut feeling is that battery cars are not intended to be a new propulsion of transport for the masses
The jap car companies appear to think the same as they are all joining up to develop hydrogen, ICE and fuel cell, that includes Subaru who I wouldn`t have expected to join but they too think all electric is asking too much and doesn`t give the customer a choice in the matter, in there opinion not mine.
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My own gut feeling is that battery cars are not intended to be a new propulsion of transport for the masses
The jap car companies appear to think the same as they are all joining up to develop hydrogen, ICE and fuel cell, that includes Subaru who I wouldn`t have expected to join but they too think all electric is asking too much and doesn`t give the customer a choice in the matter, in there opinion not mine.
Dream on if you think any alternative other than electric has any chance. I am not going to repeat most of what is obvious to anyone other than electric haters but I will say is it not obvious that whilst electric cars have progressed and the charging network developed the H2 alternative has stood still at 14 sites and the number of cars on the market remains at 2.
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battery cars are not intended to be a new propulsion of transport for the masses
until their prices come down to an affordable level and convenience of charging becomes at par with filling up ICE cars
Completed the sentence for you :-)
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battery cars are not intended to be a new propulsion of transport for the masses
until their prices come down to an affordable level and convenience of charging becomes at par with filling up ICE cars
Completed the sentence for you :-)
Are they they unaffordable? The market will decide like everything else, particularly on the used market.
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The former Great Britain isn't the only country in the world, we're overpopulated small islands off the coast of Europe which has to import everything useful, similarly population wise the western nations signed up to economic self ruin are but a minor customer base when compared to the rapidly expanding rest of world.
I doubt the Japanese give modern Britain a second thought re car sales, the only thing going for us is like some other countries we drive on the same side of the road as Japan so economies of volume play a role, other countries that get decent weather may well be better placed to include Hydrogen as a viable power source.
Because we haven't started clapping like performing seals about to be awarded a fish over the possibility of a rechargeable battery car doesn't mean we are electric haters, some of us just really can't see what all the fuss is about and have a lifetime's experience of seeing politician's schemes, we're old enough that we won't be forced into having one.
Edited by gordonbennet on 26/05/2023 at 11:25
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My own gut feeling is that battery cars are not intended to be a new propulsion of transport for the masses
The jap car companies appear to think the same as they are all joining up to develop hydrogen, ICE and fuel cell, that includes Subaru who I wouldn`t have expected to join but they too think all electric is asking too much and doesn`t give the customer a choice in the matter, in there opinion not mine.
Dream on if you think any alternative other than electric has any chance. I am not going to repeat most of what is obvious to anyone other than electric haters but I will say is it not obvious that whilst electric cars have progressed and the charging network developed the H2 alternative has stood still at 14 sites and the number of cars on the market remains at 2.
Lets just agree to disagree, I hear this all the time, partly why I rarely mention it now as anyone mentions anything negative about EVs and they are called haters.
but I do believe we should have a choice not be dictated to as to what cars we drive so many companies are starting to use Hydrogen whether you like it or not, just because you don`t hear about it doesn`t mean it isn`t happening
Nothing is obvious in this world as things change all the time like choices, just because a few are going EVs doesn't mean everyone will follow...
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My own gut feeling is that battery cars are not intended to be a new propulsion of transport for the masses
The jap car companies appear to think the same as they are all joining up to develop hydrogen, ICE and fuel cell, that includes Subaru who I wouldn`t have expected to join but they too think all electric is asking too much and doesn`t give the customer a choice in the matter, in there opinion not mine.
Dream on if you think any alternative other than electric has any chance. I am not going to repeat most of what is obvious to anyone other than electric haters but I will say is it not obvious that whilst electric cars have progressed and the charging network developed the H2 alternative has stood still at 14 sites and the number of cars on the market remains at 2.
Hydrogen power has it's place - but not for private cars - construction vehicles is a good potential market.
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I agree. I can't see any point or advantage for hydrogen for private passenger cars. Maybe other forms of road transport.
Not sure we are losing much choice. For nigh on 100 years we only really had petrol and latterly diesel. No one moaned much.
I'm not convinced only a few are only EV either. Even the Japanese are hedging their bets otherwise it is pretty much the entire industry. Development of new ICE vehicles is already over by most of them. Whether good or bad it is simply a fact.
Edited by pd on 26/05/2023 at 14:53
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I agree. I can't see any point or advantage for hydrogen for private passenger cars. Maybe other forms of road transport.
Not sure we are losing much choice. For nigh on 100 years we only really had petrol and latterly diesel. No one moaned much.
I'm not convinced only a few are only EV either. Even the Japanese are hedging their bets otherwise it is pretty much the entire industry. Development of new ICE vehicles is already over by most of them. Whether good or bad it is simply a fact.
The fact that EVs are still slower to refuel and have limited range is very much a factor in peoples reasoning to buy one as is the price. The charging network is very much under developed and when the GOV says we aim to have 6 rapid chargers in every motorway service station is a bit of a joke EVs may still turn out to be a flash in the pan even looking 10 years ahead. James May is the only person that I have seen filling a car with hydrogen. He filed it as quick as with petrol from a pump and I think the H was delivered in lbs Hydrogen is miles behind but could still come good EVs seem to be foisted on the public too quickly a bit like the rest of the carbon free policies heat pumps being one
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<< James May is the only person that I have seen filling a car with hydrogen. He filled it as quick as with petrol from a pump and I think the H was delivered in lbs >>
Hydrogen can only be delivered as a high-pressure gas unless it is liquefied at extremely low temperature, which is not practical (or safe) at roadside filling stations. As it is so light (low density) 'a few lbs' (whatever that means when it is much lighter than air) take up a lot of space, which means a large tank capable of containing (very) high pressure, thus adding a fair bit of weight. So not really practical for small vehicles.
Those considerations, plus its high flammability, will probably confine hydrogen to specialist power units.
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The fact that EVs are still slower to refuel and have limited range is very much a factor in peoples reasoning to buy one as is the price.
Indeed. The barriers to EV are:
- High procurement cost (similarly priced ICE cars offer more features)
- Range (granted it is improving and I don't think it is a major issue anymore)
- Filling up/charging time (still a major issue)
- Resale value (newer cars will have better batteries)
As already discussed in this thread, unless you get free or very cheap electricity the running cost of EV is similar to that of a fuel efficient ICE car.
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You mean if you sign up to the tariffs on offer?
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The fact that EVs are still slower to refuel and have limited range is very much a factor in peoples reasoning to buy one as is the price.
I have doubts the price of an EV will go down due to costs involved with the batteries, ie, r&d costs, though development is going well on a solid state battery which can charge to 90% in 9 minutes, problem is the production of the battery is slow and very little hope at the moment of speeding it up, speeding it up ruins the materials in the battery at the moment but once tech improves it should speed up, but could take years
Toyota are putting this solid state into hybrids to test them out so will be interesting to see how this new tech plays out :)
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Toyota - they sell 10m cars a year worldwide. Assuming £20k per vehicle this is £200bn sales - as a company they have the same income as a medium sized country.
Spending a few million on research to hedge their bets makes good business sense - even though I rate the probability of hydrogen as a fuel for cars at very low.
It is evident from new car launches over the past two years that motor manufacturers are putting most of their efforts into EVs. ICE development has largely stalled.
The costs of ownership of personal transport (EV or ICE) depend on taxation policies which can change. Currently government are concerned to find a way to tax EVs to recover lost fuel duties but avoid making them uncompetitive. Post 2030 - who knows?
A very swift lease comparison of petrol vs EV mid size hatch (10k pa, 6 month advance payment, 48 months) shows EV at around £100 per month more - two tanks of fuel. This could make good sense for many depending on how the EV is charged.
That some don't like the changes coming is a matter of opinion - but that it will happen is pretty much a certainty like it or not.
Edited by Terry W on 26/05/2023 at 16:50
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By the time hydrogen becomes remotely practical EVs will be cheaper to make than current ICE and probably have any sensible range you want.
There are billions and billions being pumped into EVs.
It's a time of change and will have transition issues but the potential for EV of huge leap forwards compared to ICE which has been developed to the point it's so complicated it's not even cheap any more.
It'll be a bit bumpy but it's actually quite an exciting time if you're interested in cars.
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Toyota - they sell 10m cars a year worldwide. Assuming £20k per vehicle this is £200bn sales - as a company they have the same income as a medium sized country.
Spending a few million on research to hedge their bets makes good business sense - even though I rate the probability of hydrogen as a fuel for cars at very low.
It is evident from new car launches over the past two years that motor manufacturers are putting most of their efforts into EVs. ICE development has largely stalled.
The costs of ownership of personal transport (EV or ICE) depend on taxation policies which can change. Currently government are concerned to find a way to tax EVs to recover lost fuel duties but avoid making them uncompetitive. Post 2030 - who knows?
A very swift lease comparison of petrol vs EV mid size hatch (10k pa, 6 month advance payment, 48 months) shows EV at around £100 per month more - two tanks of fuel. This could make good sense for many depending on how the EV is charged.
That some don't like the changes coming is a matter of opinion - but that it will happen is pretty much a certainty like it or not.
When I had my Corsa, it was leased on salary sacrifice, so I didn't pay income tax on the lease cost. I did have to pay BIK, but it was much lower than for a petrol car.
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Mr Bean's view on EV
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/elec...n
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How are the opinions of someone who has owned (and crashed) cars such as a Mclaren F1 and a Jaguar XJ220 relevant?
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I read RAs review also and can relate to everything he says and if most were honest would agree with it. It is sound technology but being imposed too rapidly. RA is a respected car aficionado even if he probably has more money than sense. His views on hanging onto old cars make sense and also the making of an EV is not as green as it might first appear
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How are the opinions of someone who has owned (and crashed) cars such as a Mclaren F1 and a Jaguar XJ220 relevant?
Have a read of the artlce - some interesting points. Just because someone has some expensive cars not mean that their opinions are not relevent.
Would you think your views on the UK are not relevent because you are not here?
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How are the opinions of someone who has owned (and crashed) cars such as a Mclaren F1 and a Jaguar XJ220 relevant?
I think his credentials of high intelligence, an M Sc in electrical engineering and extensive automotive interest and experience probably add more weight to his opinions than many of those on this thread.
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Rowan Atkinson's article has been critiqued and found wanting in a follow-up in The Guardian: www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/fact-c...s
In particular, he is accused of relying on factual inaccuracies and research that has now been debunked.
The article's author is Simon Evans, the deputy editor and senior policy editor at Carbon Brief, an organisation funded by the European Climate Foundation, an independent philanthropic initiative. Some may say that, although CB has won awards for investigative journalism, it and the ECF have an agenda.
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Hydrogen power has it's place - but not for private cars
Could be why Hyundai is now making Hydrogen cars and doing a lot of R&D into making the fuel more compact in a car, without what the other JAP companies are doing, but don`t take my word for it just look around so its not just contributors making the EV look unrosy its the makers as well
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Dream on if you think any alternative other than electric has any chance.
I only see what some companies are actually doing, if you think it won`t happen too many are getting involved and are of the opinion that EVs are too expensive to gain them traction due to costs, the price of EVs will not be going down anytime soon as there is too much cost in battery R&D/electronic development for most to pay for
Don`t forget Tesla started out all EV so they already have the layout which makes them better than anyone and improving all the time, I doubt anyone else will catch them imo.
Both Toyota and Hyundai have both said they will pay with help to build Hydrogen charging stations and I gather they have already made cars for it both ice and fc
It doesn`t bother me what happens, though I won`t be buying an EV anytime soon even if they did come down in price, which has probably less chance than seeing hfc car around, as imo too many drawbacks to having one.
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