""
Do you seriously believe that being unable to live in the sex you were born to is a nonsense?
""" I have NOT said this anywhere""
""Have you actually met and spoken to somebody who is trans?
No They are a minority. But I have read lots of stories of lives ruined by medical intervention at a young age and people who have under gone such things deeply regretting it Modern surgery allows humans to do great things but gender changing is extreme and not to be undertaken lightly just because it is doable.
DO you really believe there are 18 genders?
|
""
Do you seriously believe that being unable to live in the sex you were born to is a nonsense?
""" I have NOT said this anywhere""
""Have you actually met and spoken to somebody who is trans?
No They are a minority. But I have read lots of stories of lives ruined by medical intervention at a young age and people who have under gone such things deeply regretting it Modern surgery allows humans to do great things but gender changing is extreme and not to be undertaken lightly just because it is doable.
DO you really believe there are 18 genders?
I'm pretty sure we've been here before, but gender doesn't have to be about plumbing. If someone is identifying as something, nobody needs to do anything special other than respect that. What you're talking about is sex change surgery, which is a different thing.
You should, though, be aware that a surprisingly large number of people are born intersex, which is to say that they cannot be physically identified as male or female. Typically, these people are assigned female at birth because it's easier to cut a few bits off than stick bits on.
|
|
|
DO you really believe there are 18 genders?
If somebody who has studied the subject in depth has produced a list of 18 then I'm not going to say they're wrong still less that it's nonsense. I'll roll with it.
The Sun article Terry quotes actually tells us what they are and helpfully explains those that are less well known. The only one I'd not heard of before was 'two spirit' which is apparently rooted in cultures, mostly in North America, that were not wedded to sex and gender being congruent.
|
|
|
|
|
how much time is involved in ticking a box whether there are two, three or 18?
I have seen some of the NHS forms that swmbo must fill in with each patient, each question has to be asked, with some, has to be laboriously explained to make sure that it is understood, and when there are 18 plus boxes, and then 10 patients to see, it all takes time away from the time needed to deal with the patients problem.
It is all too easy to add an extra question. All takes time...
|
|
""t is all too easy to add an extra question. All takes time..""
Not long ago a 70year old Male was asked by an NHS form if he was pregnant. I suppose they have to cover all bases. I believe the man refused to comply but common sense prevailed and he had the scan. It is a bit like dealing with everything else in life, if you do not like it complain. Something broadly in favour of the younger generation is that they will put up with a lot less than their elders ever would IMHO
|
Not long ago a 70year old Male was asked by an NHS form if he was pregnant.
Not new. The form to claim Income Support for Pensioners, applicable for those in Care Homes asked that question way back in the nineties.
|
Not long ago a 70year old Male was asked by an NHS form if he was pregnant.
Not new. The form to claim Income Support for Pensioners, applicable for those in Care Homes asked that question way back in the nineties.
What Hanky Pankey in our car homes who would believe it. Sorry it was new to me and difficult to comprehend why. Been going on for some 30 years has it. If they wait long enough they may get a positive hit! This sort of inefficiency in the public services is only getting worse and another illustration of why the NHS is in serious trouble and money being wasted hand over fist elsewhere
|
Not long ago a 70year old Male was asked by an NHS form if he was pregnant.
Not new. The form to claim Income Support for Pensioners, applicable for those in Care Homes asked that question way back in the nineties.
What Hanky Pankey in our car homes who would believe it. Sorry it was new to me and difficult to comprehend why. Been going on for some 30 years has it. If they wait long enough they may get a positive hit! This sort of inefficiency in the public services is only getting worse and another illustration of why the NHS is in serious trouble and money being wasted hand over fist elsewhere
It would be more of.a waste of time and money to have a bunch of different forms for different people. Much easier to let the patient just tick 'no'.
|
|
|
|
""t is all too easy to add an extra question. All takes time..""
Not long ago a 70year old Male was asked by an NHS form if he was pregnant. I suppose they have to cover all bases. I believe the man refused to comply but common sense prevailed and he had the scan. It is a bit like dealing with everything else in life, if you do not like it complain. Something broadly in favour of the younger generation is that they will put up with a lot less than their elders ever would IMHO
It will have been a generic form - saves having one for everyone rather than one for females and one for males...thought you would like the NHS to be saving money rather than spending on more forms?
|
|
|
|
|
Do you seriously believe that being unable to live in the sex you were born to is a nonsense?
No, but I think it is a mental difficulty, not a fault with the sex one is born with. With very very few unfortunate exceptions, people are born either male or female. It is determined by their XX or XY chromosomes, which so far medical science is unable to change. People may present themselves to the world however they want, and give themselves an artificial gender if that helps, but they remain in either the male or female sex. At least scientifically speaking.
|
No, but I think it is a mental difficulty, not a fault with the sex one is born with. With very very few unfortunate exceptions, people are born either male or female. It is determined by their XX or XY chromosomes, which so far medical science is unable to change. People may present themselves to the world however they want, and give themselves an artificial gender if that helps, but they remain in either the male or female sex. At least scientifically speaking.
Would you accept that biological sex, determined at birth, and gender are not the same concept?
|
|
I would submit that they are the same concept but at the same time there are a lot of young people who have been affected by what they read via social media.
|
|
If, for some bizarre reason I think I'm a monkey should I be fed bananas. If (as kids used to) I walk the streets making brrrrm, brrrrm noises pretending to be a car which orifice should be used for refuelling.
For whatever emotional or mental reasons some folk believe the gender they were assigned at conception is wrong and prefer to live an alternative life. It may even be that our current understanding of genetic gender is flawed (although I doubt it)
Folk should be free to behave as they please and treated with respect - equally they should respect the majority vrights and opinions of others.
|
If, for some bizarre reason I think I'm a monkey should I be fed bananas. If (as kids used to) I walk the streets making brrrrm, brrrrm noises pretending to be a car which orifice should be used for refuelling.
For whatever emotional or mental reasons some folk believe the gender they were assigned at conception is wrong and prefer to live an alternative life. It may even be that our current understanding of genetic gender is flawed (although I doubt it)
Folk should be free to behave as they please and treated with respect - equally they should respect the majority vrights and opinions of others.
Nobody's gender is assigned at conception. If you mean that their sex is determined at conception, it isn't, but never mind. Babies are assigned a sex at birth. Obviously male or female are assigned as such. Intersex children are assigned a sex and treated with hormones and / or surgery to grow into that sex.
Putting biological sex aside, gender is entirely a construct. By gradually learning to accept that men and women are equal, and the only difference between them is the ability to give birth, we are also.dissolving the notion that one must be one or the other. There are, as others have said before, boyish girls and girlish boys. In some cases, these people are now asking for a specific name because, after all 'boyish' no longer means anything. The number of identifiers will continue to grow until everyone is just people.
I don't think anyone disputes that a person born biologically male can't have a baby, but is there any reason they can't live a life that conforms to societal expectations of a woman in all other respects? Is an infertile woman a man? Is a hysterectomy a sex change?
|
|
<< .... as others have said before, boyish girls and girlish boys. In some cases, these people are now asking for a specific name ... >>
That has long been the case. I was lucky enough to attend a mixed school during the 50s, and there were recognised tomboys. I don't recall any demands to swap sides, and parents were pretty certain that those kids were in a passing phase and would 'grow out of it'. All did, as far as I can remember. I even married one who had been a bit of a tomboy.
These days teenagers have got away with making more demands, some of which might be better resisted, but will that happen ? - probably not. Hence these extreme fads. It cannot make sense to invent dozens of imaginary 'genders' (for want of a better word).
|
|
|
|
|
<< Would you accept that biological sex, determined at birth, and gender are not the same concept? >>
They certainly aren't these days, and I suppose they were not earlier, or there would be little reason for different words. Presumably 'gender' was adopted as a less suggestive word than SEX, which can imply copulation.
|
|
Despite that they are often used interchangeably, there seems to be a consensus that "sex" is a term related to a biological fact, and "gender" related to identity and social constructs.
Accepting this, why should society make any more effort to adapt to the needs of various self identified genders than other deeply held beliefs - eg: religious, dietary (eg: vegan) etc.
Beliefs sincerely held are fundamental to individual behaviour and expectations. All deserve to be treated with respect. All should recognise that their minority views should be subordinate to the majority.
|
Despite that they are often used interchangeably, there seems to be a consensus that "sex" is a term related to a biological fact, and "gender" related to identity and social constructs.
Accepting this, why should society make any more effort to adapt to the needs of various self identified genders than other deeply held beliefs - eg: religious, dietary (eg: vegan) etc.
Beliefs sincerely held are fundamental to individual behaviour and expectations. All deserve to be treated with respect. All should recognise that their minority views should be subordinate to the majority.
The best way to do this is to do away with the notion of gender entirely. What's really the point of it? Most non-binary people are not being asked to be identified as non-binary, they're saying that they don't want to be labelled male or female with all the baggage that comes with it. You might argue that the really needy people in all of this are those that wish to be identified according to their biological sex because they're asking to be treated differently.
|
|
|
Accepting this, why should society make any more effort to adapt to the needs of various self identified genders than other deeply held beliefs - eg: religious, dietary (eg: vegan) etc.
I don't think you can equate gender incongruence (previously gender dysphoria) with religion still less one's choices over food. While no longer recognised as a Mental Health issue, one reason the current 2004 law needs reform, it still has deep psychological roots.
If I decide that I want to be Simone and wear women's clothing does that affect anybody else. I could of course, as at least two people I know have done, go further and take hormones so that I develop breasts etc. If I can afford surgery I could have my penis turned into a 'vagina'. One of the two folks mentioned above did exactly that - travelled to Thailand for the process.
Other than, in my view massively over egged, concerns about 'women only spaces' etc how does that impinge on anyone else?
Edited by Bromptonaut on 21/05/2023 at 10:56
|
Accepting this, why should society make any more effort to adapt to the needs of various self identified genders than other deeply held beliefs - eg: religious, dietary (eg: vegan) etc.
I don't think you can equate gender incongruence (previously gender dysphoria) with religion still less one's choices over food. While no longer recognised as a Mental Health issue, one reason the current 2004 law needs reform, it still has deep psychological roots.
If I decide that I want to be Simone and wear women's clothing does that affect anybody else. I could of course, as at least two people I know have done, go further and take hormones so that I develop breasts etc. If I can afford surgery I could have my penis turned into a 'vagina'. One of the two folks mentioned above did exactly that - travelled to Thailand for the process.
Other than, in my view massively over egged, concerns about 'women only spaces' etc how does that impinge on anyone else?
Asa grandparent of two young girls it worries me the concept of gender and the basic principle of Male and Female seems to be gradually eroded. For instance it does not worry me if a female or perhaps other gender walks into the gents toilet. But the reverse of this and a Male or gender males going into a female toilet where my wife or young grandchild might be is totally different In most other ways people of any gender are free to do what they like but a line must be drawn. I do not agree with mixed toilets in schools and some of the so called progressive sex education being forced on young minds.
Simone can do what she likes but use the correct toilet of her sex.
When the authorities cannot say for instance to which prison some people of different gender should be sent to it is time to draw a line. Do different gender people expect society to make special provision for them, I think not, respect yes.
In this world some people are dealt a far worse hand than problems with their gender. Most are probably physically fit and healthy and perhaps more counselling of even psychiatric help before hormones or surgery
|
Asa grandparent of two young girls it worries me the concept of gender and the basic principle of Male and Female seems to be gradually eroded. For instance it does not worry me if a female or perhaps other gender walks into the gents toilet. But the reverse of this and a Male or gender males going into a female toilet where my wife or young grandchild might be is totally different
Assuming that, in both cases the trans person is wholly transitioned or, in good faith in the process of transition, in what way is one different to the other? How is my former colleague who transitioned to female in their sixties going to alarm your granddaughters? Even if somebody is indiscreet and your daughters see somebody with breasts and a penis it's just one of those things children absorb as part of life experience. I understand that if a man takes female hormones then their 'tackle' will atrophy. They've no longer the capacity, never mind the desire to gain an erection. Indeed if they're not careful there won't be sufficient flesh for reconstructive surgery to take place.
If, as in a recent case in Scotland, a person who turns out to be a man in woman's clothing breaks the law, in this case abducting a sexually assaulting primary school aged child then an offence is committed. They will be charged and punished, inevitably with gaol time, whatever their genitalia.
For all the fuss about self ID we've actually had it for years. Under the current, outdated, law from 2004 then to get a Gender Recognition Certificate you have to live in the assumed gender for two years. My colleague Barry attended regular meetings and events dressed in female clothes and was addressed in their female name of Heather. Apart some inevitable ribaldry, mostly amongst blokes and outwith Heather's hearing, nobody turned a hair. They were the one who went to Thailand for so called 'bottom surgery'.
In most other ways people of any gender are free to do what they like but a line must be drawn. I do not agree with mixed toilets in schools and some of the so called progressive sex education being forced on young minds.
Mixed, or non gendered, toilets in schools are recent and, I suspect rare things. They should have proper cubicles with floor to ceiling partitions etc, as is the case where they exist on work or commercial premises. The only thing the users do together is wash their hands.
As a concept it creates plenty of practical issues but they're not insurmountable. Removing the scope for horseplay around the urinals is one positive.
I'm not sure what progressive sex education is but based on the experiences of my own kids, now in their late twenties and what my Science Teacher partner says the current model is irredeemably broken.
Simone can do what she likes but use the correct toilet of her sex.
If Simone dresses and presents as female then the correct loo is the women's. Given that women use cubicles which they enter and leave fully decent then how, sort of a pat down, do you know if one of them has a penis in her pants?
When the authorities cannot say for instance to which prison some people of different gender should be sent to it is time to draw a line. Do different gender people expect society to make special provision for them, I think not, respect yes.
The authorities can say which prison you go to. Why not just let the Prison Service decide a policy, based around a thorough view of the prisoner's circumstances and a risk assessment? If needs be, if they're a threat to others, then the prison service has the tools and techniques to manage misbehaviour. I don't think there's any prospect of the Soham murderer sharing showers with women. On the other hand there's a bloke who writes on this subject matter with beard that would provide instant credibility at the mountain club but who can bear chidren. Under the current English regime where your placed according to your genitals he would be imprisoned on the female estate.
The problem is when politics and more particularly it's vocal practitioners get involved.
In this world some people are dealt a far worse hand than problems with their gender. Most are probably physically fit and healthy and perhaps more counselling of even psychiatric help before hormones or surgery
As somebody who deals day to day with folks affected by, ie 99% of them have a diagnosis, i sort of agree about the worse hand. But cancer's a worse hand than any number of problems, whether physical or mental. That doesn't mean we ignore other serious conditions.
On the point of 'help before hormones' especially for minors I think you have apoint though the issue is one of Psychology rather than Psychiatry. One of the problems at the Tavistock was that they got themselves in a mindset, albeit seemingly justified, that affirmation was the right way to deal with children presenting with Gender Incongruence.
If you rely on the mainstream media, particularly those that seem to be picked up by aggregators such as MSN and focus on what, frankly, titillates rather than some actual facts then you're going to end up tilting at windmills which, frankly is what I'm seeing in this thread.
|
|
We have unisex toilets at work. Each has a handbasin in it too. I am yet to see any panic. Equally, I have just spent the weekend at a campsite with unisex toilets and showers. Literally hundreds of people appeared completely untroubled. Equally, every festival I've ever been to has unisex toilets. In some cases, that's hundreds or thousands of people having no problem at all.
|
We have unisex toilets at work. Each has a handbasin in it too. I am yet to see any panic. Equally, I have just spent the weekend at a campsite with unisex toilets and showers. Literally hundreds of people appeared completely untroubled. Equally, every festival I've ever been to has unisex toilets. In some cases, that's hundreds or thousands of people having no problem at all.
You are talking adults and as far as you are aware or did you hang around to find out? In some instances humans are peeing in public rather than take a long jaunt to the toilets.
As far as children are concerned it is a much different matter. A lot of criminals are jumping on this self labelling gender to their own advantage and sometimes unnatural sexual behaviour both towards adults and children. It only takes one incident to harm a person for life.
|
You are talking adults and as far as you are aware or did you hang around to find out? In some instances humans are peeing in public rather than take a long jaunt to the toilets.
What does this bit mean? My kids used unisex toilets on campsites and elsewhere from the ages of 4 (boy) and 6 (girl). This included in France where men standing at a urinal are seen simply as having a wee. We all do it, why is it a threat? . Why do the British mix up passing waste with sex?
Having a Dad and a brother my daughter knew how male humans wee. So what if she saw someone doing it in public?
As far as children are concerned it is a much different matter. A lot of criminals are jumping on this self labelling gender to their own advantage and sometimes unnatural sexual behaviour both towards adults and children. It only takes one incident to harm a person for life.
Can you provide some examples for the assertion I've bolded?
Even if there are a handful of instances with people acting in bad faith then that's a risk to be dealt with not a reason to go back to the fifties where gender incongruent people were somehow seen as perverts. Come to think of it that was still the case in the seventies...
Edited by Bromptonaut on 21/05/2023 at 17:09
|
|
|
"""Even if somebody is indiscreet and your daughters see somebody with breasts and a penis it's just one of those things children absorb as part of life experience. I understand that if a man takes female hormones then their 'tackle' will atrophy. They've no longer the capacity, never mind the desire to gain an erection. Indeed if they're not careful there won't be sufficient flesh for reconstructive surgery to take place."""
I cannot believe that you can make such a crass statement.
|
"""Even if somebody is indiscreet and your daughters see somebody with breasts and a penis it's just one of those things children absorb as part of life experience. I understand that if a man takes female hormones then their 'tackle' will atrophy. They've no longer the capacity, never mind the desire to gain an erection. Indeed if they're not careful there won't be sufficient flesh for reconstructive surgery to take place."""
I cannot believe that you can make such a crass statement.
Which bit is crass and why?
|
"""Even if somebody is indiscreet and your daughters see somebody with breasts and a penis it's just one of those things children absorb as part of life experience. I understand that if a man takes female hormones then their 'tackle' will atrophy. They've no longer the capacity, never mind the desire to gain an erection. Indeed if they're not careful there won't be sufficient flesh for reconstructive surgery to take place."""
I cannot believe that you can make such a crass statement.
Which bit is crass and why?
"""""Even if somebody is indiscreet and your daughters see somebody with breasts and a penis it's just one of those things children absorb as part of life experience"""
So you think the above is perfectly acceptable well I don't and a dare say most parents or grandparents would either. Crass I said and not a bit, very!
|
So you think the above is perfectly acceptable well I don't and a dare say most parents or grandparents would either. Crass I said and not a bit, very!
Before I frame an answer it would be interesting to know how old your granddaughters are.
Curious kids ask questions; they're only difficult to answer if you're afraid of them acquiring knowledge.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 21/05/2023 at 18:33
|
|
The British are perceived as sexually repressed, perhaps a legacy of Victorian forbears. With even public broadcasters (BBC, ITV etc) showing nudity and writing storylines about gender minorities, we should be past these concerns. Imagery available on line is freely available.
If we accept most people are honest and decent, why are we concerned about gender. One solution is to make no distinction at all - unisex toilets, hospital beds etc. Individual privacy can be provided as at present with cubicles and screens.
Those who are assessed as being a threat to others or themselves need to be dealt with individually. This is no different to the procedures followed with (say) the potentially violent, infirm, vulnerable, mentally ill, etc.
|
The British are perceived as sexually repressed, perhaps a legacy of Victorian forbears. With even public broadcasters (BBC, ITV etc) showing nudity and writing storylines about gender minorities, we should be past these concerns. Imagery available on line is freely available.
If we accept most people are honest and decent, why are we concerned about gender. One solution is to make no distinction at all - unisex toilets, hospital beds etc. Individual privacy can be provided as at present with cubicles and screens.
Those who are assessed as being a threat to others or themselves need to be dealt with individually. This is no different to the procedures followed with (say) the potentially violent, infirm, vulnerable, mentally ill, etc.
Agreed
|
|
Whenever I'm asked intrusive daft questions in official forms, I just create some rubbish. It's a small protest but amuses me. I think I've given about fifteen different religions to the NHS by now. Perhaps we all need to be a little more creatively rebellious, asked gender just identify as a lamp post or something.
|
Perhaps we all need to be a little more creatively rebellious, asked gender just identify as a lamp post or something.
What a great idea!!
|
So you think the above is perfectly acceptable well I don't and a dare say most parents or grandparents would either. Crass I said and not a bit, very!
Before I frame an answer it would be interesting to know how old your granddaughters are.
Curious kids ask questions; they're only difficult to answer if you're afraid of them acquiring knowledge.
The ages of my grandchildren are totally irrelevant to this. In any case their parents are responsible for their education. My concerns are for the wider generation of young children.
As far as this is concerned we are at odds with one another. Children should acquire knowledge at an age where they are best able to understand it. Any further contribution from me will not change my thoughts.
|
The ages of my grandchildren are totally irrelevant to this. In any case their parents are responsible for their education. My concerns are for the wider generation of young children.
The way in which you answer questions must use age appropriate concepts and language. The only reason I was asking how old your grandkids were was to frame a few ideas. We have to talk kids through death, pregnancy and birth, divorce etc etc. I'm not clear why, if on the off chance you encountered a man with breasts or a woman with a willy in the changing area it would be that different.
Having said that I'm 63 and have never seen an trans person in a changing area and neither has my partner. Her friend who manages a Nuffield Gym says it's a once ina blue moon thing. I prefer a cubicle in the men's never mind in a mixed changing area. When my children were too young to reliably sort themselves out for swimming I probably used a cubicle in the men's but it wouldn't have worried me if my daughter, still under 5, saw a man naked.
As far as this is concerned we are at odds with one another. Children should acquire knowledge at an age where they are best able to understand it. Any further contribution from me will not change my thoughts.
We're never going to agree on this stuff. As you say neither of us is going to change our mind. There's a similar debate on a politics site, hived off from cyclechat, that's well on the way to 5000 posts.
|
|
<< Curious kids ask questions; they're only difficult to answer if you're afraid of them acquiring knowledge. >>
This remark seems to suggest that it is fine for kids to acquire absolutely any 'knowledge'. I suspect many on here might prefer some young people to be protected from it until a suitable age is reached when they can absorb it. Define 'suitable age' - difficult, I agree, but that has been what parents are for.
|
<< Curious kids ask questions; they're only difficult to answer if you're afraid of them acquiring knowledge. >>
This remark seems to suggest that it is fine for kids to acquire absolutely any 'knowledge'. I suspect many on here might prefer some young people to be protected from it until a suitable age is reached when they can absorb it. Define 'suitable age' - difficult, I agree, but that has been what parents are for.
The difficulty with that is that you are passing your own prejudices on to your children. When they do discover the things you've hidden from them, they will automatically think that there is something inherently 'bad' about them.
It's a tricky one, and really a matter of opinion so not something I'll labour.
|
<< Curious kids ask questions; they're only difficult to answer if you're afraid of them acquiring knowledge. >>
This remark seems to suggest that it is fine for kids to acquire absolutely any 'knowledge'. I suspect many on here might prefer some young people to be protected from it until a suitable age is reached when they can absorb it. Define 'suitable age' - difficult, I agree, but that has been what parents are for.
The difficulty with that is that you are passing your own prejudices on to your children. When they do discover the things you've hidden from them, they will automatically think that there is something inherently 'bad' about them.
A simple basic example to do with seeing naked people - it may depend on whether kids have had siblings of the opposite sex, whether their parents bathed them together, and if so, at what age that was considered no longer appropriate. That upbringing may determine whether adults are shy or not about being seen naked by others.
Although it is easy to argue that unisex toilets are a beneficial 21st-century development, I suspect some women may worry about finding a trans person alone inside, and what might happen to them. Almost a need for another class of loo - male, female and others ?
|
|
Why is there a presumption that gay, lesbian transexual or any other minority is intent on sexual predation.
Reality is that like heterosexuals they may be in an existing relationship, shy, retiring, nervous, or simply find you unattractive.
I have worked with people who freely admit their minority preferences (and no doubt many who didn't) - like my other colleagues they were intelligent, decent, good company etc.
The stereotypical images popular in the 1960-1980 are entirely unfounded!
|
Why is there a presumption that gay, lesbian transexual or any other minority is intent on sexual predation.
Reality is that like heterosexuals they may be in an existing relationship, shy, retiring, nervous, or simply find you unattractive.
I have worked with people who freely admit their minority preferences (and no doubt many who didn't) - like my other colleagues they were intelligent, decent, good company etc.
The stereotypical images popular in the 1960-1980 are entirely unfounded!
That is spot on.
|
Why is there a presumption that gay, lesbian transexual or any other minority is intent on sexual predation.
If you are referring to my post above, my only presumption was that, when in earlier times a woman might reasonably expect to find only other women in a Ladies, with current trends that may no longer be true. Whatever their presumptions may be, some women may prefer to be wary of any man - gay, trans or whatever.
Edited by Andrew-T on 24/05/2023 at 09:30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
