Could be worth an occasional oil analysis then, I think they can be done in the mail.
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Could be worth an occasional oil analysis then, I think they can be done in the mail.
Could be, butr most standard oil analyses don't report on particulates. They report on wear metals, based on flame photometry of the oil.
This won't be directly relevent to this problem, though if the oil strainer was blocked this MIGHT result in elevated wear metals before total failure.
You'd be lucky to catch that as a warning sign though
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Our Fabia 1.0 TSi 110 PS has just had its 5 year service. The oil level has not dropped between any service (yet). It still looked golden when I last checked it in late March.
If oil on a Peugeot Puretech petrol is getting dirty I would be concerned that the known cam belt issue is waiting to bite you.
Its not like years ago when oil was crap, petrol was crap and overuse use of the manual choke contaminated the oil. Not had dirty oil out of a petrol since the 80's. Even the oil from the 2 litre Zetec in the Caterham stays golden after 2 years.
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Our Fabia 1.0 TSi 110 PS has just had its 5 year service. The oil level has not dropped between any service (yet). It still looked golden when I last checked it in late March.
If oil on a Peugeot Puretech petrol is getting dirty I would be concerned that the known cam belt issue is waiting to bite you.
Its not like years ago when oil was crap, petrol was crap and overuse use of the manual choke contaminated the oil. Not had dirty oil out of a petrol since the 80's. Even the oil from the 2 litre Zetec in the Caterham stays golden after 2 years.
I agree Skidpan, oil in a modern petrol really shouldn't get that dirty, as for the sludge/ crud that would worry me, maybe time to look at the timing belt John?
Obviously likes a drink as well, both my Vitara, 6745 miles and my Berlingo van, 97805 miles use no oil.
Edited by paul 1963 on 22/04/2023 at 14:42
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Like minds.
Landcruiser currently dripping into the oil drain can, will inspect the pick up strainer (directly over the plug hole) before refilling.
Fortunately the Toyota Diesel drains very well, once running again its nearly 1000 miles before the oil starts to get dirty again.
Good job you didn't have Ford's 5 cyl Ranger, oil has to be replenished within 15 minutes because the oil pump can't self prime, no its not April !st this howler is absolutely genuine, first heard about it from John Cadogan, i'm told there is a similar issue with the 1 litre engine...quite how you're supposed to do any sump or similar work i don't know, there must be a method of oil priming because the engines were all new once...a complication one doesn't need and which ruled the Ford 5 cyl out of consideration when we thought briefly about replacing the Toyota, which is now 18 years old.
I wouldn't be too worried about the oil being mucky, its already been in far too long for my liking, i'd start having panic attacks the wrong side of 5k miles :-), hopefully you have a dipstick to keep an eye on things, regarding possible contamination i might be inclined to keep a generous sample from several levels of the drainings in a sealed bottle just in case.
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"there must be a method of oil priming because the engines were all new once"
Obviously there's a factory method but I think I read that the DIY method is to overfill the oil until the pump is submerged, turn the engine over to prime, then drain the excess.
John F mentioning a Mann W7058 filter made me check the price - around £7. My 1.0T Astra uses a W7056 and is around double the price. What can be so different? Perhaps the Peugeot one is cheaper because it's unable to catch small pieces of cambelt ;)
Edited by Chris M on 22/04/2023 at 16:02
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Obviously there's a factory method but I think I read that the DIY method is to overfill the oil until the pump is submerged, turn the engine over to prime, then drain the excess.
So if you've bought one of those the first accessory you presumably buy is a Fumoto Quick Drain Valve, to make the above scenerio not as potentially driveway destroying as it might otherwise be, oh and buy oil in bulk..:-)
edit, oil strainer clean as a baby's bum, 7 litres of Fuchs finest now installed, very difficult to read the dipstick so clean is the oil.
Edited by gordonbennet on 22/04/2023 at 16:41
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John F mentioning a Mann W7058 filter made me check the price - around £7. My 1.0T Astra uses a W7056 and is around double the price. What can be so different? Perhaps the Peugeot one is cheaper because it's unable to catch small pieces of cambelt ;)
The W7058 was £5.70 from GSF car parts in Northampton.
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"The W7058 was £5.70 from GSF car parts in Northampton"
Well the W7056 is £13.38 from GSF with the current 65% off code. ECP want £27.49 (no big discount codes with them anymore)!!! Can't believe they sell many at that price.
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Good job you didn't have Ford's 5 cyl Ranger, oil has to be replenished within 15 minutes because the oil pump can't self prime, no its not April !st this howler is absolutely genuine, first heard about it from John Cadogan,
Actually, IIRC, you first heard about it from me.
I first heard about it from John Cadogan, though his "take" was rather disapproving of people (like us) wingeing about it rather than the procedure itself.
He is, however, rather of the "new cars are inevitably in all respects better" school of...er...thought.
I would be worried about the oil being mucky, because, as described, it sounds like this muck is a sediment, which suggests its denjser than the bulk oil and in relatively large bits.
I don't know if belt-in-oil derived detritus would meet that description, but if I had one of these I'd be interested in finding out.
If you do a "blotter spot test" using laser printer paper, as the oil ages you get an additional dark ring on the chromatogram, which I assume is wear debris and/or coke.
I thought this might make an interesting student project, and did some preliminary fiddling about doing scans of digital photographs of chromatographs, and could detact various quantitative and qualitative changes during thermal decomposition of vegetable oil (as a model system )
That course was scrapped by the university, so I havn't been motivated to take it further. but I think the method has potential.
Edited by edlithgow on 23/04/2023 at 05:28
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If oil on a Peugeot Puretech petrol is getting dirty I would be concerned that the known cam belt issue is waiting to bite you.
I agree Skidpan, oil in a modern petrol really shouldn't get that dirty, as for the sludge/ crud that would worry me, maybe time to look at the timing belt John?
Obviously likes a drink as well, both my Vitara, 6745 miles and my Berlingo van, 97805 miles use no oil.
Perhaps I overemphasized the dirtiness - it was no worse than other 10K mile oil changes I have done. Re the 'BIO' cambelt - I'm well aware of the history; the belt looks OK - the crumbling was sorted some years ago.
All ICEs burn oil to a greater or lesser degree.
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John
Could this be the same Puretech engine that eats timing belts which run in oil and disintegrate over time?
If so a local garage in Northampton always removes the sump to clear out all the remnants of the belt material not collected in the filter , just to make sure the bits don’t circulate once the new oil is filled . They carry out this procedure on every oil change .
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John
Could this be the same Puretech engine that eats timing belts which run in oil and disintegrate over time?
Yes. Can't understand how Peugeot got lumbered with so many badly made cambelts unfit for purpose. Goodness knows who the suppliers were. They seem to have kept it quiet. Chinese, perhaps - like the alloy wheels stamped 'made in China'- which I don't think will age as well as those on our old Ford Focus. Anyway, it had been sorted by 2018 but it must have cost them millions....
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Still can’t find the exact date and engine number the latest version of the 1.2 puretech was put into production
If anyone can help, please do
So far the latest revision of this engine has been trouble free but it’s early days
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Perhaps I overemphasized the dirtiness - it was no worse than other 10K mile oil changes I have done. Re the 'BIO' cambelt - I'm well aware of the history; the belt looks OK - the crumbling was sorted some years ago.
Its the words in your original post that worry me
A further 140mls of black crud came out. I then left it overnight, and in the morning there was another 20mls of grot
I have not seen anything like that come out of an engine in over 40 years that has had regular oil changes. In the 35 years I have owned Caterhams I have had 4 engines as I have upgraded them and taken off the sump I have never seen anything other than a small amount of residual oil that gets left behind after draining. Just remember that between 1988 and 2004 all those engines had twin 45 Weber carbs which whilst set up correctly were nowhere near as clean or efficient as the fuel injection used these days.
The first 2 litre Zetec I bought from a scrapyard (£150) had allegedly done 63,000 miles in its Mondeo home. When I took the cam cover off it looked beautiful, then removed the sump (without turning the engine over to ensure any crud did not get where it should not be) and it was way better than I expected after seeing many 1970's cross flow sumps.
With modern oils (synthetic or semi-synthetic) there should be no "crud or grot" after 20,000 miles.
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Like this John
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU6zYEozL3E
:-)
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Like this John www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU6zYEozL3E :-)
Er - not quite! Reminds me of over 20yrs ago removing similar looking solidified gunge from a son's old Peugeot 309 OHV engine with a dessert spoon. It was sounding like a can of nails so I had removed the rocker cover to adjust the valve clearances.
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Perhaps I overemphasized the dirtiness - it was no worse than other 10K mile oil changes I have done.
Its the words in your original post that worry me
'A further 140mls of black crud came out. I then left it overnight, and in the morning there was another 20mls of grot'
With modern oils (synthetic or semi-synthetic) there should be no "crud or grot" after 20,000 miles.
crud definition: 1. something dirty and unpleasant
grot1
noun
INFORMAL•BRITISH
-
somethingunpleasant, dirty, or of poor quality
I would be very surprised if, after 20,000 miles, after draining the bulk of the oil, then leaving it to drip for a few hours, the resulting effluent was a lighter colour than liquid Bovril. Anyway, in my case there was no evidence of any particulate matter in the grot suggestive of BIO crumbling, which was reassuring....and I would never dream of going that far without an oil change!
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Perhaps I overemphasized the dirtiness - it was no worse than other 10K mile oil changes I have done. Re the 'BIO' cambelt - I'm well aware of the history; the belt looks OK - the crumbling was sorted some years ago.
Its the words in your original post that worry me
A further 140mls of black crud came out. I then left it overnight, and in the morning there was another 20mls of grot
I have not seen anything like that come out of an engine in over 40 years that has had regular oil changes.
Yes but do you leave your engines to drain overnight and canted up to get the last little bit out?
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"Yes but do you leave your engines to drain overnight and canted up to get the last little bit out?"
The answer's in the OP.
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Friends 2008 is on 80k plus miles and its oil consumption is high. It has had the cambelt changed. I wonder what engine flush might do to the belts running in oil but probably not in the engine long enough to do any harm. Surprised the OP sticks to 10k oil changes and is so meticulous about getting the last drop out. I think with lower mileage a more frequent change might be better.
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"Yes but do you leave your engines to drain overnight and canted up to get the last little bit out?"
The answer's in the OP.
But I was replying to Skidpan
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Perhaps I overemphasized the dirtiness - it was no worse than other 10K mile oil changes I have done. Re the 'BIO' cambelt - I'm well aware of the history; the belt looks OK - the crumbling was sorted some years ago.
Its the words in your original post that worry me
A further 140mls of black crud came out. I then left it overnight, and in the morning there was another 20mls of grot
I have not seen anything like that come out of an engine in over 40 years that has had regular oil changes.
Yes but do you leave your engines to drain overnight and canted up to get the last little bit out?
When we lived at the old house changing the oil was pretty much impossible. The slope on the drive was too great to enable the car to be jacked to level so I did this work up at dads. That made leaving it draining overnight impossible but to be honest having an open container under the car would not be a good idea over night.
But with the Caterham its a different matter and much easier. The car is much smaller so work can be done in the garage. My normal routine is to drain the oil after my last drive out in October. I have a couple of blocks I put under the tyres that ensure the drain plug is at the lowest point and since its in the garage and not used everyday I leave it until I decide to go out and finish the job, usually a couple of days.
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John,
Thats a coincidence you living in Northampton like me! The garage in a village on the way to Market Harborough insists on the lengthy procedure of removing the sump on every oil change on puretech engines as they find particles of the damaged belt lodged there which can block the sieve feeding the oil pump. Maybe worth adopting their technique for piece of mind ?
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We had someone working at our remote site that decided to change his oil during the lunch break.
But he drained the oil into the rainwater grid which fed Into the on site sewage farm destroying the bacteria .Cost a fortune to reinstate .
So after a dressing down the next time he drove to the nearby forest drained the oil and threw it into the bushes but complete with the drain plug.
So before he could refill the engine he had to locate the drain plug in the bushes , which he eventually managed but got covered in used engine oil !
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We had someone working at our remote site that decided to change his oil during the lunch break.
But he drained the oil into the rainwater grid which fed Into the on site sewage farm destroying the bacteria .Cost a fortune to reinstate .
So after a dressing down the next time he drove to the nearby forest drained the oil and threw it into the bushes but complete with the drain plug.
So before he could refill the engine he had to locate the drain plug in the bushes , which he eventually managed but got covered in used engine oil !
I can beat that, years ago a friend of mine done a oil change on his Marina, not knowing any better he filled the engine up to the top with oil started up and promptly blew the oil filter off and covered his parents drive with 2 gallons of gtx!
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I wonder if a suction pump like PELA might be useful for sucking any last bits out. Assuming the tube goes to the bottom of the sump.
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I wonder if a suction pump like PELA might be useful for sucking any last bits out. Assuming the tube goes to the bottom of the sump.
Have a Pela, bought it when we had the BMW to enable me to do an annual oil change easily, worked a treat providing you followed a few rules and accepted its shortcomings.
The tube is basically the outer of a bike brake cable thus its flexible and sturdy but only has a relatively small hole down the middle making sucking the oil out quite a slow process. This small hole would make sucking any crud out pretty much impossible even if it would reach to the bottom, issue there is if the tube is right on the bottom it won't suck.
But with a new(ish) engine there should be no such issues. You need to give the car a decent run (I used to do about 6 miles) to get the the oil up to temp otherwise it will not suck even with thin 0w20 BMW oil. After a decent run any suckable particles should be suspended in the oil and will come up the tube. But you cannot get 100% out of the sump, the BMW held 5 litres according the the specs (without a filter change) and the most I ever got out was just over 4 litres. Remember our drive had quite a slope and the dipstick was pretty central on the engine so the same whichever way the car pointed.
Definitely a useful tool but not perfect and pretty useless for JohnF's deposits.
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We had someone working at our remote site that decided to change his oil during the lunch break.
But he drained the oil into the rainwater grid which fed Into the on site sewage farm destroying the bacteria .Cost a fortune to reinstate .
So after a dressing down the next time he drove to the nearby forest drained the oil and threw it into the bushes but complete with the drain plug.
So before he could refill the engine he had to locate the drain plug in the bushes , which he eventually managed but got covered in used engine oil !
I can beat that, years ago a friend of mine done a oil change on his Marina, not knowing any better he filled the engine up to the top with oil started up and promptly blew the oil filter off and covered his parents drive with 2 gallons of gtx!
A friend had a Marina 1800. It used to leak oil so badly that he put a tray underneath when parked and poured the contents back in when setting off.
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