Even when they get there, they often find the charger is not working.
Or if it is working, someone else will be using it for a while.
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Evs are prefect for cities, but there is little infrastructure. Having seen Youtube videos of people with EVs, they seem to plan their route around chargers. Even when they get there, they often find the charger is not working.
What a wonderful life these people must lead, revolving around their mobile phone and car charger app. :-)
I have been considerings buying a used EVs, but the battery capacity on older EVs is small and none of the car dealership tell you what the remaining range on the battery is. As they degrade over time.
I've heard accounts of early gen-1 Leafs getting well under 40 miles average in range, which means in winter, you might be lucky to make it nto work and back should you get stuck in a traffic jam.
Given it's highly likely anyone buying such a car would be on a lower income and probably would not have access to a home (and probably work-based) charger, that would leave them at the mercy of public chargers, which in many areas are, as many have said, few and far between, often not in working order, low output or in use.
I have visions of the old line fromn the husband saying "i'm just going down the pub for a jar or two" to "I'm just going to the next town to charge the battery for 3 hours - see you at supper time".
So much to look foward to in the world of the Great Reset and Build Back 'Better'...
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Why would anyone buy an old Leaf unless they had particular circumstances that it fitted their use?
Clearly they wouldn't. An early Leaf only did 75-100 miles best case when new so clearly an old one isn't going to suit someone who does anything more than pottering about local mileage. I can see the use for one. For example, you live in London, can charge easily and spend all day doing 10 miles stuck in traffic. If you live in the North Yorkshire Moors I would say it is less suitable.
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Just to let you know. The UK now has over 40,000 (and climbing) EV charging points. I believe we also have about 8 ( plus or minus) Hydrogen points.
Edited by Ethan Edwards on 07/04/2023 at 18:57
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There is an EV specialist near me. They have, amongst other things, three Leafs below £8k all still charging to more than 80% of their original capacity. Nice runabouts for shopping and the school run. Getting stuck in traffic is not a problem for them as they don't draw power when they're stood still.
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There is an EV specialist near me. They have, amongst other things, three Leafs below £8k all still charging to more than 80% of their original capacity. Nice runabouts for shopping and the school run. Getting stuck in traffic is not a problem for them as they don't draw power when they're stood still.
Quite. They suit a particular type of user.
If you do longer journeys, can't easily charge or is maybe your own car you'd only buy one if you were an i****. So I don't get the problem. And the LEAF has a large display on the dashboard to tell you the health of the battery,
Edited by pd on 07/04/2023 at 19:26
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All I can add is if you've never tried a EV then you really should, your mind set quickly changes regarding 'charging anxiety ', as much as I still enjoy a good fruity petrol engine wafting around in silence is rather nice.....
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There is an EV specialist near me. They have, amongst other things, three Leafs below £8k all still charging to more than 80% of their original capacity. Nice runabouts for shopping and the school run. Getting stuck in traffic is not a problem for them as they don't draw power when they're stood still.
Perhaps, but only if you can get it chared and don't do longer journeys, especially in winter. I wouldn't be suprised if some of them had at least part of their battery packs changed out.
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There is an EV specialist near me. They have, amongst other things, three Leafs below £8k all still charging to more than 80% of their original capacity. Nice runabouts for shopping and the school run. Getting stuck in traffic is not a problem for them as they don't draw power when they're stood still.
Perhaps, but only if you can get it chared and don't do longer journeys, especially in winter. I wouldn't be suprised if some of them had at least part of their battery packs changed out.
I very much doubt it. The cars are not worth enough to make it worthwhile.
The early Leafs are rather "proof of concept" cars. They can serve a purpose but are hardly mainstream. If you do long journeys then clearly you wouldn't buy one any more than you'd buy a Smart ForTwo if your main use was long motorway journeys with 4 passengers.
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There is an EV specialist near me. They have, amongst other things, three Leafs below £8k all still charging to more than 80% of their original capacity. Nice runabouts for shopping and the school run. Getting stuck in traffic is not a problem for them as they don't draw power when they're stood still.
Perhaps, but only if you can get it chared and don't do longer journeys, especially in winter. I wouldn't be suprised if some of them had at least part of their battery packs changed out.
I very much doubt it. The cars are not worth enough to make it worthwhile.
The early Leafs are rather "proof of concept" cars. They can serve a purpose but are hardly mainstream. If you do long journeys then clearly you wouldn't buy one any more than you'd buy a Smart ForTwo if your main use was long motorway journeys with 4 passengers.
The problem is that the 'power that be' are expecting the Plebs to buy such cars because all the alternatives will be either too expensive or in many cases not suited to their needs, e.g. way too big (many EVs are large) or too small (e.g. the Renault Zoe).
There aren't many 'affordable' second hand EVs that are the size of a Fiesta or Focus. As you say, the first gen (dried up old?) Leaf was essentially a concept car, and yet the entire Western world is being forced to buy such vehicles and 2nd gen cars (at a big price premium) that whilst better, still don't even come close to ICE on range, and we still have the big problem of charging outside of certain bigger cities.
Like with the 'encouragement' 20 odd years ago to change to diesel, these policies - once again - have to been thought through with the benefit of the ordinary (and especially the lower income) person in mind, especially outside of a few big cities. I suspect they have been 'carefully crafted' by 'influential people and firms / organisations' to significantly benefit them financially and in terms of (unelected) power over us all.
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There aren't many 'affordable' second hand EVs that are the size of a Fiesta or Focus. As you say, the first gen (dried up old?) Leaf was essentially a concept car, and yet the entire Western world is being forced to buy such vehicles and 2nd gen cars (at a big price premium) that whilst better, still don't even come close to ICE on range, and we still have the big problem of charging outside of certain bigger cities.
Who is forcing the entire western world to buy old EV's?
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There aren't many 'affordable' second hand EVs that are the size of a Fiesta or Focus. As you say, the first gen (dried up old?) Leaf was essentially a concept car, and yet the entire Western world is being forced to buy such vehicles and 2nd gen cars (at a big price premium) that whilst better, still don't even come close to ICE on range, and we still have the big problem of charging outside of certain bigger cities.
Who is forcing the entire western world to buy old EV's?
Governments, given they will be pricing ICE out soon via various means. Those who normally buy older cars will have a Hobson's choice between buying from less and less (more highly specced, larger only) ICE cars and paying a lot more for fuel (because governments have upped the tax on it and because of increases in the cost of drilling), vs buying older EVs that aren't suitable/viable (see earlier comments) vs using public transport and paying a good deal of money to hire vehicles when walking, cycling or public transport is not practical.
What other choice do they have post 2030 (and before as car manufacturers are forced [from 2026 at least] to sell increasing percentages of EV cars, meaning the pool of ICE ones dwindles, and more rapidly for smaller, lower spec cars)?
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What other choice do they have post 2030 (and before as car manufacturers are forced [from 2026 at least] to sell increasing percentages of EV cars, meaning the pool of ICE ones dwindles, and more rapidly for smaller, lower spec cars)?
If people stopped copying turkeys, ie voting for Christmas, they might be able to effect some change, whilst they continue to vote the same as they always do whilst amazingly expecting a different result each time nothing will change.
Won't happen of course, no matter how bad things get, how many freedoms will be taken, how much of our once lovely country is concreted over, how much less net pay people have left after successive govts have filched whatever they had left from their wallets, they will still accept whatever the govt and media say as gospel and nod along.
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There is an EV specialist near me. They have, amongst other things, three Leafs below £8k all still charging to more than 80% of their original capacity. Nice runabouts for shopping and the school run. Getting stuck in traffic is not a problem for them as they don't draw power when they're stood still.
Perhaps, but only if you can get it chared and don't do longer journeys, especially in winter. I wouldn't be suprised if some of them had at least part of their battery packs changed out.
I very much doubt it. The cars are not worth enough to make it worthwhile.
The early Leafs are rather "proof of concept" cars. They can serve a purpose but are hardly mainstream. If you do long journeys then clearly you wouldn't buy one any more than you'd buy a Smart ForTwo if your main use was long motorway journeys with 4 passengers.
The problem is that the 'power that be' are expecting the Plebs to buy such cars because all the alternatives will be either too expensive or in many cases not suited to their needs, e.g. way too big (many EVs are large) or too small (e.g. the Renault Zoe).
There aren't many 'affordable' second hand EVs that are the size of a Fiesta or Focus. As you say, the first gen (dried up old?) Leaf was essentially a concept car, and yet the entire Western world is being forced to buy such vehicles and 2nd gen cars (at a big price premium) that whilst better, still don't even come close to ICE on range, and we still have the big problem of charging outside of certain bigger cities.
What powers or rules are forcing anyone to buy a 12 year old LEAF? None. There aren't many "affordable" EVs because they haven't been out long. It is like complaining there aren't affordable examples of the 8th generation Vauxhall Astra. No, there aren't. Why? Because it only came out last year.
By the time the "plebs" as you call them feel the need due to rules or simple convenience of not being able to buy petrol they'll be looking at 10-15 year old cars which haven't been built yet or possibly even been thought of. Just like they'd be looking at a late 6th generation or maybe early 7th generation Astra now. They certainly won't be looking at a 25 year old LEAF any more than they'd be looking at a Vauxhall Cavalier now.
There will be plenty of used EVs in 10-15 years time. Heck decent Mk 2 LEAFS will soon be beginning to dip under £10k if you really want that LEAF.
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There is an EV specialist near me. They have, amongst other things, three Leafs below £8k all still charging to more than 80% of their original capacity. Nice runabouts for shopping and the school run. Getting stuck in traffic is not a problem for them as they don't draw power when they're stood still.
Perhaps, but only if you can get it chared and don't do longer journeys, especially in winter. I wouldn't be suprised if some of them had at least part of their battery packs changed out.
I very much doubt it. The cars are not worth enough to make it worthwhile.
The early Leafs are rather "proof of concept" cars. They can serve a purpose but are hardly mainstream. If you do long journeys then clearly you wouldn't buy one any more than you'd buy a Smart ForTwo if your main use was long motorway journeys with 4 passengers.
The problem is that the 'power that be' are expecting the Plebs to buy such cars because all the alternatives will be either too expensive or in many cases not suited to their needs, e.g. way too big (many EVs are large) or too small (e.g. the Renault Zoe).
There aren't many 'affordable' second hand EVs that are the size of a Fiesta or Focus. As you say, the first gen (dried up old?) Leaf was essentially a concept car, and yet the entire Western world is being forced to buy such vehicles and 2nd gen cars (at a big price premium) that whilst better, still don't even come close to ICE on range, and we still have the big problem of charging outside of certain bigger cities.
What powers or rules are forcing anyone to buy a 12 year old LEAF? None. There aren't many "affordable" EVs because they haven't been out long. It is like complaining there aren't affordable examples of the 8th generation Vauxhall Astra. No, there aren't. Why? Because it only came out last year.
By the time the "plebs" as you call them feel the need due to rules or simple convenience of not being able to buy petrol they'll be looking at 10-15 year old cars which haven't been built yet or possibly even been thought of. Just like they'd be looking at a late 6th generation or maybe early 7th generation Astra now. They certainly won't be looking at a 25 year old LEAF any more than they'd be looking at a Vauxhall Cavalier now.
There will be plenty of used EVs in 10-15 years time. Heck decent Mk 2 LEAFS will soon be beginning to dip under £10k if you really want that LEAF.
See my comments to BBD on the same. BTW - not everyone can afford a £10k car. Many people can only afford something in the £2k - £5k range, and I certainly wouldn't trust an old EV on its last legs, given how expensive the batteries cost, especially as when its that old, how much electronics are still available and at a reasonable price?
As cars become more and more 'computer-like', they will be likely have even more 'planned obsolescence' where parts aren't interchangeable with the latest ones due to differences in size, usage characteristics and connection compatability. If I tried to find replacements for components in my older mobile phones (one is 20 years old but a then common model) or PCs / tablets, I'd find it hard to source genuine new / unused parts and at a reasonable price.
I can''t believe that EV batteries or motors won't change enough by (say) 2030 that those built in the 2010s will be completely incompatible with the tech 10-15 years later, and given how quickly the tech is developing, I can see this affecting a lot of 1st and 2nd gen cars. I wouldn't want to take the risk of buying one when I could be left with a valueless car if the motor or batteries fail or the battery pack's range is so low that I'm charging it up every 20 miles or so. Nor would I have the money to replace either if I could only afford a car in that price range I spoke of.
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See my comments to BBD on the same. BTW - not everyone can afford a £10k car. Many people can only afford something in the £2k - £5k range, and I certainly wouldn't trust an old EV on its last legs, given how expensive the batteries cost, especially as when its that old, how much electronics are still available and at a reasonable price?
As cars become more and more 'computer-like', they will be likely have even more 'planned obsolescence' where parts aren't interchangeable with the latest ones due to differences in size, usage characteristics and connection compatability. If I tried to find replacements for components in my older mobile phones (one is 20 years old but a then common model) or PCs / tablets, I'd find it hard to source genuine new / unused parts and at a reasonable price.
I can''t believe that EV batteries or motors won't change enough by (say) 2030 that those built in the 2010s will be completely incompatible with the tech 10-15 years later, and given how quickly the tech is developing, I can see this affecting a lot of 1st and 2nd gen cars. I wouldn't want to take the risk of buying one when I could be left with a valueless car if the motor or batteries fail or the battery pack's range is so low that I'm charging it up every 20 miles or so. Nor would I have the money to replace either if I could only afford a car in that price range I spoke of.
Well it's a 2019 car so they won't be buying a 2019 Focus either for £3k. They will be able to buy one of either in 8 years time.
I don't see why EVs wont last - in fact they have the potential to last a lot longer than ICE cars most of which I come across in the £3k-5k are frankly completely knackered. Not all by any means but quite a few.
Any cheap old car is a risk. A sudden clutch hydraulic failure will cost you £1200 or so. And yes it happens a lot. Many £3k ICE cars get written off due to repair costs.
EVs really won't be any different. As with buying a ICE car check the capacity/range at full charge. Check it drives OK. They are just cars at the end of the day which will depreciate to scrap and be returned to tin cans ICE or EV.
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See my comments to BBD on the same. BTW - not everyone can afford a £10k car. Many people can only afford something in the £2k - £5k range, and I certainly wouldn't trust an old EV on its last legs, given how expensive the batteries cost, especially as when its that old, how much electronics are still available and at a reasonable price?
As cars become more and more 'computer-like', they will be likely have even more 'planned obsolescence' where parts aren't interchangeable with the latest ones due to differences in size, usage characteristics and connection compatability. If I tried to find replacements for components in my older mobile phones (one is 20 years old but a then common model) or PCs / tablets, I'd find it hard to source genuine new / unused parts and at a reasonable price.
I can''t believe that EV batteries or motors won't change enough by (say) 2030 that those built in the 2010s will be completely incompatible with the tech 10-15 years later, and given how quickly the tech is developing, I can see this affecting a lot of 1st and 2nd gen cars. I wouldn't want to take the risk of buying one when I could be left with a valueless car if the motor or batteries fail or the battery pack's range is so low that I'm charging it up every 20 miles or so. Nor would I have the money to replace either if I could only afford a car in that price range I spoke of.
Well it's a 2019 car so they won't be buying a 2019 Focus either for £3k. They will be able to buy one of either in 8 years time.
I don't see why EVs wont last - in fact they have the potential to last a lot longer than ICE cars most of which I come across in the £3k-5k are frankly completely knackered. Not all by any means but quite a few.
Any cheap old car is a risk. A sudden clutch hydraulic failure will cost you £1200 or so. And yes it happens a lot. Many £3k ICE cars get written off due to repair costs.
EVs really won't be any different. As with buying a ICE car check the capacity/range at full charge. Check it drives OK. They are just cars at the end of the day which will depreciate to scrap and be returned to tin cans ICE or EV.
I'm not so sure about long term longevity of the 1st and at least 2nd gen EVs. As I've stated in the thread about 'Chinese products', there's been a gradual dip in the quality of components in manufacturing, and in my view, especially in electronics over the past 20 years due to downward pressures on costs.
Yes, they can DO MORE, and advances in tech would allow for far higher levels of reliability and longevity, but only if the correct levels of R&D (testing in particular) is done, which would show the true cost of the equipment / systems. Unfortunately, many manufactures cut corners in order to get as much 'new stuff' to market to match/beat rivals and worry about reliability, longevity etc later.
Many products are also designed with a relatively short lifespan - not necessarily that they will completely fail, but one sub-component or a software system might, but which is uneconomic or physically impossible to repair, and a replacement becomes increasingly expensive - like computer parts, as they get more than 5-7 years or a couple of full generations from the original design - new 'versions' may be completely imcompatible.
Cars have international laws that say manufacturers must keep / make parts for 10 years after the car goes out of production, but it doesn't mean those parts must stay at a reasonable price in line with general inflation. This ramping up of OEM parts for older equipment well above inflation - especially for products that were not in the top few of sales happens across many industries.
I don't see it being any different with EVs, and because they rely on complex electronics and software only, this, in my view, will just exaccerbate the problem. This is born out with Tesla apparently ( as far as I can tell) refusing to do any work on older cars (10 years+) of theirs or provide parts to any indie willing to work on them.
This is why I said before (more tha once) that unless and until EVs go 'standard' on components, so (like with PCs) you can use several different makes of otherwise standard motors, computer control systems, etc (and thus the 'engine' bay needs to be laid out to accommodate slightly different sized/shaped components), few 'pattern' parts manufacturers will bother because too few people will be able to afford replacemement parts.
Besides - an old EV with barely sufficient range to go to work on a good day (never mind longer trips out) is hardly a recipe for a good ownership experience. Would anyone seriously want to own an ICE car that can only drive 20-40 miles before reuiring a fill-up?
Note that most clutch replacements cost well under £1k, whereas a complete battery pack replacement for an EV is at least 5x as much, if not a LOT more. Mots ICE cars that are reasonable well-cared-for tend to have 'failures' in dribs and drabs as they age, not all at once, giving owners a chance to either repair, replace or put up with a problem. And there's a lot of small-scale indies to do that work - not with EVs, as far as I can tell.
It's why I think the timescale and method of the changeover is way too fast / coercive, by a factor of at least 2, if not 3-5x.
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Why would anyone buy an old Leaf unless they had particular circumstances that it fitted their use?
Clearly they wouldn't. An early Leaf only did 75-100 miles best case when new so clearly an old one isn't going to suit someone who does anything more than pottering about local mileage. I can see the use for one. For example, you live in London, can charge easily and spend all day doing 10 miles stuck in traffic. If you live in the North Yorkshire Moors I would say it is less suitable.
A few years ago I bought a 10-year old Citroen C1 as an urban runabout - it does about 1,000 miles/yesr - the Nissan Leaf would be a modern EV equivalent altough at 3x the price I'll keep the C1.
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Why would anyone buy an old Leaf unless they had particular circumstances that it fitted their use?
Clearly they wouldn't.
People can make mistakes and not aware of asking the right questions. I am struggling to compare used electric cars, because I don't know what is the remaining life of the battery.
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I've heard accounts of early gen-1 Leafs getting well under 40 miles average in range, which means in winter, you might be lucky to make it nto work and back should you get stuck in a traffic jam.
It is worse then that. I am not expert, but this is my understanding.
As a car battery ages, it typically requires more electricity to charge up fully. This is because as a battery ages, its internal resistance increases, which makes it harder for electricity to flow through the battery. As a result, it takes more energy to push the same amount of electricity through the battery.
In which case the cost per miles is significantly more.
Nor does it charge up any faster. If your battery capacity is at 30% of when new, it won't take 30% of the time to re-charge.
Any EV experts willing to confirm this?
Edited by Warning on 08/04/2023 at 15:45
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As a car battery ages, it typically requires more electricity to charge up fully. This is because as a battery ages, its internal resistance increases, which makes it harder for electricity to flow through the battery. As a result, it takes more energy to push the same amount of electricity through the battery.
Nor does it charge up at 30% of when new, it won't take 30% of the time to re-charge.
From my understanding of Ohm's Law, if resistance increases, current decreases if the supply voltage is the same.
A given quantity of electricity will take longer to flow if resistance is increased but if the cost is based on total current x time it should not cost more, should it?
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