I wish Mazda well with their reborn rotaries, and laud their boldness in eschewing turbochargers
I cannot see what is so brilliant about re-introducing an engine type that brought NSU to its knees and nearly sank Mazda yet you find their lack of interest in turbochargers (on petrols) so laudable when the technology is reliable and well proven by just about every other brand.
Would be sad to see them disappear but I fear history will repeat itself. Just consider how many years the petrol engine has actually got left, probably longer than 2030 as previously set by mad Boris but as the EV becomes more popular it will slowly die.
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I cannot see what is so brilliant about re-introducing an engine type that brought NSU to its knees and nearly sank Mazda
The fact that NSU was brought to their knees was not because it was a rotary engine per se, it was because the materials and engineering were not up to the standard required to make it work reliably (fun fact, Lada used rotary engines for a while, some of the early examples would reputedly only last 20k kms. Because of the poor quality materials). Same for Mazda, and while they never fully solved the oil consumption and excessive fuel consumption, reliability itself was fine (assuming proper care) once better materials and closer tolerances were achievable for the rotor tips.
yet you find their lack of interest in turbochargers (on petrols) so laudable when the technology is reliable and well proven by just about every other brand.
Fortunately, as we are not all the same, we are not all required to have the same opinion as you though!.
I wish Mazda well with their reborn rotaries, and laud their boldness in eschewing turbochargers
As for Mazda eschewing turbo's?. In North America and Australia the 3, 6 and CX5 can be had with a 2.5 turbo petrol. In the case of the 3, this sounds a whole lot more appealing to me than most of the hot hatches we get in the UK. A relatively low (but still plenty IMO) power output for the capacity (250bhp), 310lb/ft of torque (from 2500rpm), torque converter auto, 4wd, and suspension which has not (seemingly) been configured to drum up business for osteopath's!.
10 years ago was when the old 3 MPS it the dust, a car which, when it came out, was the most powerful hot hatch you could buy courtesy of its 2.3 4 cyl turbo.
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I wish Mazda well with their reborn rotaries, and laud their boldness in eschewing turbochargers
As for Mazda eschewing turbo's?. In North America and Australia the 3, 6 and CX5 can be had with a 2.5 turbo petrol. In the case of the 3, this sounds a whole lot more appealing to me than most of the hot hatches we get in the UK. A relatively low (but still plenty IMO) power output for the capacity (250bhp), 310lb/ft of torque (from 2500rpm), torque converter auto, 4wd, and suspension which has not (seemingly) been configured to drum up business for osteopath's!.
10 years ago was when the old 3 MPS it the dust, a car which, when it came out, was the most powerful hot hatch you could buy courtesy of its 2.3 4 cyl turbo.
Seen some (generally very favourable) reviews of that engine mated to the latest 3 from over The Pond. Oddly enough, it only comes mated to their TC auto box for that car, at least when tested.
If only we could get one - I sometimes regret not going for a 3 MPS (or 2006 Civic Type R) which was quite reasonably priced back at that time under £20k, even if the ride on both was rather harsh.
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I'm resurrecting this thread as I've just ordered a new one due for delivery towards the end of this month and all of the above is relevant!
Having sold my beloved SLK350 which I'd had for 10 years (just not used it enough in recent years) and having put my old Mercedes A180 CDi up for sale, the MX30 will be a second car to complement our main car, a BMW i4.
Having tried a new Renault Symbioz which we discounted immediately due to a ridiculously hard jittery ride and wind noise, we followed it up with a test drive in the Mazda. What a difference. Refinement, ride, noise levels and interior quality was miles ahead, given the similar retail price of around £31k.
The rear doors and limited access do not worry us and we're unlikely to have back seat passengers. It was the raised height which Mrs 72 dudes wanted.
It will mostly be used for shorter journeys so will operate on electric only for most of the time, with the back up of the rotary generator when needed. Oil level will be monitored closely although I understand the thirst has been partially resolved and the rotor tips are now thicker, hardened and lubricated!
I love the quirkyness of the car, both looks and engineering wise.
It's my first PCP deal ever and Mazda are currently giving a £6000 contribution to finance. I managed to negotiate another £900 off with the dealer. Probably because it's a niche and not particularly popular model.
I'll write an update for anyone interested after a month or two. Would be interested to hear mcb100's thoughts and whether he's driven one.
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‘ I'll write an update for anyone interested after a month or two. Would be interested to hear mcb100's thoughts and whether he's driven one.’
Sorry, no. I’ve not driven a Mazda since working on the dealer launch of the original CX-30 in 2019.
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Looked very closely at a new one a couple of weeks ago.
With the £6k contribution the cost compares very favourably with other options.
Very impressed with overall quality and interior fit and finish.
Can operate at 100% EV for all local trips. Avoids range anxiety on anything longer.
Rotary engine I assume selected for light weight and small dimensions vs normal ICE
Negatives:
I understand if operating on petrol, it is far from impressive - 31-35 mpg. Economy was one of the original rotary engine weaknesses.
Bonkers rear door - although it is usually going to be just 2 up - it would seriously compromise fitting car seats for kids or occasional 4 up.
Still thinking.
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Negatives:
I understand if operating on petrol, it is far from impressive - 31-35 mpg. Economy was one of the original rotary engine weaknesses.
Bonkers rear door - although it is usually going to be just 2 up - it would seriously compromise fitting car seats for kids or occasional 4 up.
Don't really get this fixation on the rear doors?
he MX-30 is essentially a small coupe, and as such it has very tight rear seat accommodation (surely how little space there is in the rear seats is much more of a problem for fitting kiddy seats than the type of door?). The size of the aperture with both doors open is decent enough, but it isn't even close to the total size of the two apertures on a four door car. So be in no doubt that fitting two "normal" doors on each side of a car with MX-30's proportions would result in way, way more inconvenience and compromise than there is currently. Because instead of one reasonable sized opening there would be two very small ones separated by the B pillar. The only viable alternative to the current setup would be to fit one long door on each side like coupes used to have. While I can't speak for anyone else, I find it difficult to imagine how that could possibly result in easier access to the rear seats.
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Negatives:
I understand if operating on petrol, it is far from impressive - 31-35 mpg. Economy was one of the original rotary engine weaknesses.
Bonkers rear door - although it is usually going to be just 2 up - it would seriously compromise fitting car seats for kids or occasional 4 up.
Don't really get this fixation on the rear doors?
he MX-30 is essentially a small coupe, and as such it has very tight rear seat accommodation (surely how little space there is in the rear seats is much more of a problem for fitting kiddy seats than the type of door?). The size of the aperture with both doors open is decent enough, but it isn't even close to the total size of the two apertures on a four door car. So be in no doubt that fitting two "normal" doors on each side of a car with MX-30's proportions would result in way, way more inconvenience and compromise than there is currently. Because instead of one reasonable sized opening there would be two very small ones separated by the B pillar. The only viable alternative to the current setup would be to fit one long door on each side like coupes used to have. While I can't speak for anyone else, I find it difficult to imagine how that could possibly result in easier access to the rear seats.
Similar rear door design to the last RX-8 if I recall. Whether it is actually practical is another matter entirely.
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Negatives:
I understand if operating on petrol, it is far from impressive - 31-35 mpg. Economy was one of the original rotary engine weaknesses.
Absolutely, but that's missing it's purpose. You can select Charge mode where the generator constantly charges a depleted battery and under these conditions the economy will be pretty poor as you describe.
However, as you say, for some people, running almost entirely on electric is possible if one has a home charger and is prepared to plug in 3 or 4 times per week.
We test drove for about 90 minutes and when in Normal mode, the car uses EV mode whenever it can, the rotary only cutting in occasionally for spirited acceleration or uphill stretches. We saw 70+ mpg with an average well into the 50s. Of course if you can drive electric, hardly any petrol will be used at all.
The great thing is it was hard to tell whether the rotary engine was running at all, so smooth and quiet was it's operation. Only a dash light gives the game away.
I think it will suit us but as I say, too niche for many. If you haven't driven on Terry W, I'd certainly recommend it
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What I was surprised at is why Mazda chose a rotary engine at all, because from accounts about the previous generation rotary engines they use, they need regular use and for a reasonable period, to avoid reliability problems.
I recall at my local dealer on more than one occasion RX-8 owners bemoaning the need for expensive repairs (e.g. needing a new CAT) relatively early in their car's life because it was used as a shopping car / town driving mostly and only the occasional longer journey.
I wonder if the MX-30's unit cutting in occasionally to charge up the EV battery / provide a power boost will be enough to keep the engine in good order over the medium to long term, hence why I thought that the Atkinson cycle engine from their partner Toyota might be more appropriate.
I also wonder if the EV-only's 366L of boot space will be significantly reduced when the range-extender garb is added for that model - presumably it has a fuel tank in that area, though perhaps a relatively small one.
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Andy, those doors are not practical although as BBD says, the aperture is surprisingly large and once in there, two adults wouldn't complain too much.
I've also wondered about the rotary engine cutting in and out as a longer term proposition. Mazda have made quite a noise about improving the engine since the RX8 days, and I have some faith (hopefully not misguided!) that Mazda engineers know what they are doing. The engine has been designed to only run briefly and occasionally.
Because the battery is smaller than in the full EV, I think boot space is unaffected. Most of the range extender gubbins is under the bonnet
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I’m curious to know whether the engine runs up to around full operating temperature, once it kicks in.
I’ve got a Ford Kuga PHEV currently. It’ll happily run around in EV mode when there’s sufficient battery charge, but there are scenarios where the petrol engine kicks in and when it does, it remains in operation until it has reached normal operating temperature. I guess that minimises wear from cold starts and ensures that the engine doesn’t repeatedly operate with ‘cold start’ emission levels.
Once the engine is warm, it cuts in and out depending on how it’s being driven, state of charge on the traction battery etc.
I wonder whether the rotary unit in the Mazda runs up to full temperature once it has been triggered, thus avoiding the repeated cold start / short run scenarios that w***el engines dislike?
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I wonder whether the rotary unit in the Mazda runs up to full temperature once it has been triggered, thus avoiding the repeated cold start / short run scenarios that w***el engines dislike?
I would expect Mazda would have improved the design, materials used, and tolerances to ensure that the engine is more reliable than originally launched 40 years ago.
AIUI they have not fixed the poor economy. On electric you can enjoy the environmental and wallet benefits - sadly all reversed when the motor kicks in.
If it makes sense to run the engine warm, I assume the software would bring it to full temperature. A more interesting thought - it would be possible to use the battery to pre-heat the engine 5 minutes or two miles before it is required to minimise wear.
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I think you need a degree of mechanical sympathy to run a PHEV or REX. On my PHEV, if you start on a cold day using EV, the first time the engine could be called upon is if I floor it for a B-road overtaking manoeuvre. With my car having an e-CVT gearbox, that sends the revs soaring to full engine speed as soon as the engine fires into life! Even with modern synthetic oils, that just doesn’t feel right.
My commute to work on some lovely B-roads has a handful of overtaking opportunities, so if I’ve been stuck behind a dawdler, I’ll manually get the engine to kick in a mile or two before I need full power, so that there’s at least some heat in the block before it’s pushed hard to safely complete the overtake.
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What is REX? I suspect i'm not the only to wonder.
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REX - Range Extender where the engine/generator is purely for charging the batteries and not driving the car.
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My commute to work on some lovely B-roads has a handful of overtaking opportunities, so if I’ve been stuck behind a dawdler, I’ll manually get the engine to kick in a mile or two before I need full power, so that there’s at least some heat in the block before it’s pushed hard to safely complete the overtake.
This sounds like you have a crystal ball to help you. How on earth can you know that a mile or 2 ahead you will be overtaking?
With both our hybrids (PHEV Skoda and Hybrid Yaris) we just let the car get on with it. The manufacturers do know a thing or two about their products.
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The manufacturers do know a thing or two about their products.
Yeah, right. There's never been recalls have there?
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The manufacturers do know a thing or two about their products.
Yeah, right. There's never been recalls have there?
The thread is about Hybrids, Plug in Hybrids and now a range extender. The Prius has been out for 25 years at least and is regularly recommended on here for its reliability. Precisely ZERO of the owners will spend time predicting when the engine will be required since the car does it for you.
Think people on here need to own such a car before commenting, its clear many don't.
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<< This sounds like you have a crystal ball to help you. How on earth can you know that a mile or 2 ahead you will be overtaking? >>
On a regular run you get to know the places where that becomes a possibility !
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Or simply joining a fast road where up to that point the car has been running on electric. I think back to where I used to live on the outskirts of Bath (Larkhall if anyone knows it), then joining the uphill sliproad onto the A46 heading to the M4. When you join that busy road you have to accelerate hard otherwise you are likely to end up with cars and especially HGVs on your bumper who will be building up speed for the hill.
I generally agree with the 'let the car do its thing' view but I still can't imagine going from 0 rpm to high rpm in an instant with a stone cold engine especially in winter is good long term. Although maybe the Japanese have planned it all out.
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I'm a bit confused. Is it a range extender or a PHEV? If it's a range extender, it won't have anything to do with acceleration.
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Right, I've Google to find the answer to my own question. The wheels are driven only by an electric motor. The rotary is a generator to charge the battery. As such, it can run at a relatively constant speed with little load on it.
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Right, I've Google to find the answer to my own question. The wheels are driven only by an electric motor. The rotary is a generator to charge the battery. As such, it can run at a relatively constant speed with little load on it.
^^^^^^
This
Plus as an 830cc equivalent, I would imagine it's got a tiny radiator which would mean reaching operating temperature fairly quickly.
It's not really a PHEV. It's a electric car with a 53 mile range which happens to have a petrol driven generator which provides extra range by charging the battery. But you can also plug it in to ensure that as much if your journey is done in pure electric
I just hope it's not too clever for it's own good!
Edited by 72 dudes on 09/09/2024 at 14:36
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Plus as an 830cc equivalent, I would imagine it's got a tiny radiator which would mean reaching operating temperature fairly quickly.
It's a w***el, that's basically a 2-stroke. It'll need a rad equivalent for a 1600cc.
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Not really, a two stroke fires every 2nd stroke, and unless they are a forced (i.e. supercharged) induction use the crankcase for induction and transfer hence needing oil in the fuel or a total loss.
The w***el rotary could maybe be described as a 1 stroke or 3 stroke, due to the number of chambers and usually the inside of the piston, bearings and epicyclic gears are fully lubricated just like the crankshaft, big ends etc in a conventional 4 stroke engine. Unless of course it was the Norton rotary race bike which pulled the inlet air through the rotary for additional cooling.
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usually the inside of the piston, bearings and epicyclic gears are fully lubricated just like the crankshaft, big ends etc in a conventional 4 stroke engine.
What about the rotor tip seals (apex tip seals), the weak point of w***els?
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I know that road/junction well.
In my Peugeot 308 with a "puny" 1.2L engine it needs no more than 3500 rpm to get up to speed (50mph) to join the A46.
Coming out of Reading Services into a 70mph limit may get the revs to 4000rpm.
That you need to rev the nuts off any modern car (bar basic and underpowered) to meet normal road conditions is largely nonsense.
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I know that road/junction well.
In my Peugeot 308 with a "puny" 1.2L engine it needs no more than 3500 rpm to get up to speed (50mph) to join the A46.
Coming out of Reading Services into a 70mph limit may get the revs to 4000rpm.
That you need to rev the nuts off any modern car (bar basic and underpowered) to meet normal road conditions is largely nonsense.
Totally agree. Applies to all the VAG TSi's we have owned plus the Yaris hybrid.
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My commute to work on some lovely B-roads has a handful of overtaking opportunities, so if I’ve been stuck behind a dawdler, I’ll manually get the engine to kick in a mile or two before I need full power, so that there’s at least some heat in the block before it’s pushed hard to safely complete the overtake
If it is a Range Extender won't the engine just run at optimum revs to charge the battery and the battery just carries on powering the wheels?
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@thirts
Correct, and see my earlier reply.
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