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Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - focussed

A “silent majority” of car companies is concerned that electric vehicles will not alone be able to end reliance on fossil fuels, according to a senior Toyota executive.

Akio Toyoda, the company's president and grandson of its founder Kiichiro Toyoda, said that many concerned senior figures are reluctant to say what they really think because of the pressure to go green.

It comes as the industry struggles to ditch petrol and diesel, in the face of materials shortages and complex processes that have kept the cost of building electric cars high.

In comments on a visit to Thailand first reported by the Wall Street Journal, Mr Toyoda said: “People involved in the auto industry are largely a silent majority.

“That silent majority is wondering whether EVs [electric vehicles] are really OK to have as a single option. But they think it’s the trend so they can’t speak out loudly.”

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/12/19/silent-maj.../

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Adampr

He's probably right, but I can't help but notice he's got a warehouse full of hybrids to flog.

I do find it interesting that the Japanese manufacturers are generally a bit more reticent than others to make EVs. They didn't get where they are by following every trend going. From here, it seems like EVs are very popular, but I presume (with no factual basis) that the Asian, African and South American markets are not really there yet.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Catfood

EU is simply trying to ban the success of the Japanese car maker in Europe to defend the German car industry. I think the petrol Hybrid is much fuel efficient and perhaps the way to go(until eventual replacement of the ICE) without need for the infrastructure such as additional charging station or power station. The Japanese are making the Hybrid Car since the 90’s and they have patented everything they tried/found whether useful or not. The German cannot make Hybrid System without infringe the patent or pay a royalty fee. They don’t want to pay the royalty fee and also strong ego not to accept the Japanese trend hence they approached the EU politician to block the Japanese success here in Europe. At least, German has a level playing field in the EV sector.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Hoping
I wish he had a warehouse full of hybrids to flog I have been waiting for one for 9 months and it’s not coming anytime soon!
Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - mcb100
An answer to a slightly different position, but whilst EV’s are beneficial to the UK, Ireland and the west of Europe in environmental terms, less so in, for example, Poland.
An EV has, indisputably, a greater carbon footprint to produce but by approximately 30,000 miles of emission free running, using a typical EU blend of power production, it has offset its carbon emissions and is now ahead.
If you’re in Poland, and I’d assume China and India, which are massively dependent on coal, an EV will never, currently, be lower emission over its whole life.
A modern, efficient, petrol engine is less environmentally unfriendly than an EV where fossil fuels are utilised as a major source of energy production.
This will change - our mileage crossover point will shorten as we transition to more renewables, but, currently, EV’s aren’t the perfect solution globally in my opinion.

Edited by mcb100 on 20/12/2022 at 09:17

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Terry W

A “silent majority” of car companies is concerned that electric vehicles will not alone be able to end reliance on fossil fuels, according to a senior Toyota executive.

The unidentified silent majority has the characteristics of a conspiracy theory, supported by self interest., and bereft of evidence. Pointless assertion IMHO.

That some parts of the world (compared to the UK and western Europe) are at different (a) stages of economic development, (b) access to green energy resources (wind, solar, etc) (c) transport needs (population density, distances etc) is no surprise.

The route they take to carbon neutral may de very different to UK - timescales, alternative sources of green energy, capacity to invest, relative cost of coal, gas and oil etc.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - pd

As far as the UK is concerned I do wonder if you removed the BIK advantage and the 100% tax write down available on EVs exactly how many would be selling on a level playing field at the moment.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Adampr

As far as the UK is concerned I do wonder if you removed the BIK advantage and the 100% tax write down available on EVs exactly how many would be selling on a level playing field at the moment.

A few, but not that many. I think they would be marketed on performance and refinement instead, so Teslas and some of the stand-alone luxury models (Mercedes, Audi etc) would still be around, but I don't think anyone would be buying an electric Vauxhall or Peugeot.

I suppose Leafs and Zoes were around before the 'boom' but they were still the exception and something of a niche product aimed at lentil-knitting urban types.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Xileno

I can't speak for the Leaf but certainly the Zoe had attractive sweeteners from the start. My neighbour ran one as a second car, a 2014 reg I think, up until 2018 when the finance ended. I doubt he would eat lentils or knit but you never know... He was paying £99 a month - effectively a free car given the mileage he was doing commuting to work. The family used the ICE Focus where range was an issue. But in 2018 the monthly finance went up to over £300 a month as the sweeteners were reduced, so they bought another ICE.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Engineer Andy

A “silent majority” of car companies is concerned that electric vehicles will not alone be able to end reliance on fossil fuels, according to a senior Toyota executive.

The unidentified silent majority has the characteristics of a conspiracy theory, supported by self interest., and bereft of evidence. Pointless assertion IMHO.

That some parts of the world (compared to the UK and western Europe) are at different (a) stages of economic development, (b) access to green energy resources (wind, solar, etc) (c) transport needs (population density, distances etc) is no surprise.

The route they take to carbon neutral may de very different to UK - timescales, alternative sources of green energy, capacity to invest, relative cost of coal, gas and oil etc.

Is there anyone you disagree with that you don't call a conspiracy theorist? Calling the head of Toyota one is stretching credibility rather thin.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - focussed

"The unidentified silent majority has the characteristics of a conspiracy theory, supported by self interest., and bereft of evidence. Pointless assertion IMHO"

What is the difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth?

At the current rate, about 3 weeks.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Engineer Andy

"The unidentified silent majority has the characteristics of a conspiracy theory, supported by self interest., and bereft of evidence. Pointless assertion IMHO"

What is the difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth?

At the current rate, about 3 weeks.

((chuckle))

I think the proverbial worm is turning - more and more insiders across many fields and industries who've been effectively brow-beaten or actively silenced over the past few years are now starting to find their voices because of how bad things are getting due to them keeping quiet about the problems caused by the globalists and their cabal of proverbial flying monkeys in the MSM, activists and political circles.

About time if you ask me.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Warning

Toyota may find themselves lagging behind. If they are dragging their feet, it could reflect in their R&D and motivation.

There are two specific problems. Air quality and Carbon footprint.

Campaigners like Just Stop Oil are targeting road users. As if to suggest oil is n't being used in homes and offices. It is a lot easier to improve buildings, rather than moving transport.

The campaigning is unfair.

You have the city centre dwellers who go about on a cycle, thihnking they are saving the planet, in the mean time ordering stuff which came from the other side of the world by container ships.

Edited by Warning on 21/12/2022 at 13:08

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - corax
The campaigning is unfair.

You have the city centre dwellers who go about on a cycle, thihnking they are saving the planet, in the mean time ordering stuff which came from the other side of the world by container ships.

Good for them, rather that than drive half a mile up the road to get some shopping, then parking with a lukewarm engine. I can't believe you're criticising people who aren't burning the worlds resources needlessly. If I only need to go a short distance, I walk or use the bike, and I don't live in a city.

As for goods from container ships, you'll find it hard these days not to have any chinese products in your home, it's impossible to find anything else.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Warning

rather that than drive half a mile up the road to get some shopping, then parking with a lukewarm engine. I can't believe you're criticising people who aren't burning the worlds resources needlessly. If I only need to go a short distance, I walk or use the bike, and I don't live in a city.

That is absolute rubbish. Burning worlds resources? We are contributing to it whether we like it or not.

Do you think those protestors dont use central heating or cook food or wear clothes?

If the potatoes in my supermarket travelled 200miles and bananas thousand of miles. Is that last 3 miles going to make a difference if made in a car?.

Why don't these protestors turn up to restaurant and stop people ordering meat? As that is more carbon intensive then a plant based diet?. Why only target motor vehicles?

Even those on plant based died, live off the humble lentil, which have have travelled thousand of miles. Why only attack motor vehicles?

I have come across plenty of climate hypocrites. I have looked into the background of a few city dwelling cyclists, often they are into something which not climate friendly, such a crypto currency. Telling your neighbour not to drive to work, but in the mean time, burning processing power to mine Bitcoins!

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Andrew-T

If the potatoes in my supermarket travelled 200 miles and bananas thousand of miles. Is that last 3 miles going to make a difference if made in a car?.

In a word, yes, of course it is. That difference may be small, but it cannot be denied simply because you consider it insignificant. In a nutshell, that is an important reason why we are where we are - everyone thinks 'one more won't make any difference', while unfortunately a thousand or a million thinking that way do make a difference.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Metropolis.

Those last 3 miles are made in a car anyway, unless you live right next to a supermarket. Can't say it makes any difference to the taste.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Warning

My feeling the Citroen Ami is an interesting proposing. It has a number of issues, but I suspect it has a low carbon footprint.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Adampr

Just checking that were talking about the same Just Stop Oil who spend most of their time being a nuisance at art galleries and football matches? I'm pretty sure they weren't targeting cars.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Warning

They closed off the M25.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Falkirk Bairn

Earlier this month Marks & Spencer are to introduce charging points at some stores & investing £XXm alongside their BP partner.

Greenwashing their supplies - M&S 95%+ of everything, apart from food, is shipped or flown from the other side of the world. Hardly an example of green production

30 years ago 5,000 Scottish jobs in sewing machine/knitwear factories etc within 10 miles of my house. Some factories were small with < 100 employees. Local shirt company was 1200 on 1 site - they had 3/4 other factories in NE England.

Men's shirts, women's blouses & dresses, men's & women's knitwear, school clothing, jeans - now it is Bangladesh, Myanmar, Thailand, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Egypt, Morocco, Brazil,

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Terry W

For clothing and most electronics the cost of shipping is truly trivial. A 20ft container from China to UK in normal trading costs £2500-3500, although pandemic and Suez blockage (Evergreen) disrupted rates.

A 20ft container hold 33 cu m and may contain:

  • ~100 dishwashers, washing machines etc - £30 each
  • ~2500 laptop computers - £1 each
  • ~500 50 inch TVs - £6 each
  • ~10,000 T shirts - 20p a time.

Food is a different matter. It has relatively high density, low value, limited shelf life, specialised transport needs, etc. Air freight veg is clearly a climate profligacy.

Whether offshoring so much traditional production activity from UK to cheap bits of the world is a sensible decision having regard for jobs, balance of trade, cheaper prices, reliance on imports is another matter.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - alan1302

Earlier this month Marks & Spencer are to introduce charging points at some stores & investing £XXm alongside their BP partner.

Greenwashing their supplies - M&S 95%+ of everything, apart from food, is shipped or flown from the other side of the world. Hardly an example of green production

30 years ago 5,000 Scottish jobs in sewing machine/knitwear factories etc within 10 miles of my house. Some factories were small with < 100 employees. Local shirt company was 1200 on 1 site - they had 3/4 other factories in NE England.

Men's shirts, women's blouses & dresses, men's & women's knitwear, school clothing, jeans - now it is Bangladesh, Myanmar, Thailand, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Egypt, Morocco, Brazil,

So as they ship things in from overseas they should not install charging points as it's green washing? It's all steps towards being better - you can go all in being better in one giant leap.

For the factories that make garments from cotton - is it not just as 'green' to make them in the country that produces the cotton as it would be to ship the cotton here and then make it? What would make it 'greener' being made here?

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Adampr

They closed off the M25.

They did. But it was amongst other things. My point is they're not solely targeting motor vehicles

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - pd

Toyota seem to have lost their way a bit. They've gone from about 12m a year to 7m and their margins have fallen. Tesla apparently make 8x the profit margin on each vehicle than Toyota.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Engineer Andy

Toyota seem to have lost their way a bit. They've gone from about 12m a year to 7m and their margins have fallen. Tesla apparently make 8x the profit margin on each vehicle than Toyota.

I thought that Tesla only made money because they sold their allocation of carbon credits to ICE-making car firms, rather than from actually selling cars, or is that yesterday's news? I don't recall Tesla's cost coming down of late as well as prices of their cars going up.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - pd

Tesla are reckoned to make about $10,000 per car which is a staggering amount in an industry where $1000 was thought good.

High prices, modern purpose built factories, no legacy costs, clever designs are the main reasons.

Toyota - Concern EV's alone will not be able to replace ICV - Terry W

Tesla have grown from nothing to produce ~1.4m cars in 2022 and made ~138m US$ - about $10k per car. They took a risk:

  • invested in capacity to maximise volumes to reduce unit costs
  • building own battery plant
  • delivering vehicle with range and performance (not milk floats)
  • investing in supercharger network
  • limited dealer network vs other companies selling similar volumes - eg: Suzuki

Tesla sold 35000 EVs in 2021 - three times the second placed Kia e Niro.

Elon Musk may have made a mess of Twitter - but he certainly got it right with Tesla. Mainstream competition will no doubt try to catch up, but some will have left it too late.