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My wife and I have never owned a car a from new nor had any desire to do so.
Touchwood I have with one notable exception always picked good second-hand cars.
SWMBO currently runs a 2012 Kia Rio1.4 petrol purchased in 2017 with 10k on the clock now showing 53k. It has only needed routine servicing and has not given any trouble. I run a 2013 Suzuki Alto purchased in 2018 with just 2k on the clock has now reached almost 15k. It too has only needed routine servicing. We expect to carry on with both cars for at least another 8-10 years in the same way.
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I'm surprised by the 8 year old statistic. Subjectivity I'd say that is a way over estimate with most 8 year old cars having had at least 2 or 3 owners.
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I'm surprised by the 8 year old statistic. Subjectivity I'd say that is a way over estimate with most 8 year old cars having had at least 2 or 3 owners.
I'm pretty sure the statistic has been misrepresented. It appears in today's Times, and seems to say nothing about length of ownership, only age of vehicle. 8-and-a-bit years looks about right for an average age of cars on the road, but I bet most of them aren't with their first or even second owners.
Thirteen years is the average life of those cars, some of which may have had only one owner, but typically four or five I would guess
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Thirteen years is the average life of those cars, some of which may have had only one owner, but typically four or five I would guess.
I bought a Citroen Xantia Estate in 2000 when the model was on run out deals as the C5 was imminent. It went to the scrapper in 2013/160k miles with too many faults to make it worth repairing and putting through the MoT. It might have lasted another year or two if I'd attended to getting the suspension spheres regassed sooner.
Currently running a 9 y/o 120k Berlingo HDi/115. It runs fine but may need replacing soon before Diesels disappear from the market altogether.
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You are a good owner to buy a car from...
Not sure about the cam chain. That's an expensive job that shouldn't need doing unless the engine was being rebuilt. I read a while back that one would need to change the sprockets as well, as the old ones would wear to the pattern of the chain. If not then the new chain would not last long. On some cars I believe the sprocket is welded onto the cam so it all gets a bit costly.
Also not sure about jet washing. My fear would be water getting to places where it would not normally do so under normal pressure, behind seals etc. I prefer a car brush on the end of the garden hose and get down low, reaching as far under the car as possible from both sides.
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Very interesting and constructive comments. I would add that over and above obligatory service items and dealing with all MoT advisables, owners intending to keep cars long term should
1) Replace tyres whatever mileage every 5 yrs
In my view, not any more (HJ used to say 6 years). Many newer designed tyres are now designed to last 10 years given a fair wind, assuming general wear and tear isn't a factor and nor are significant other factors such as the car regularly straddling 'pimple' speed humps or very badly surfaced roads that damage the tyres.
Best to go by condition up to the manufacturer's stated life of the product. I'll be trying this time to get the full 10 years out of my current set of Michelin CC+s, assuming I don't change the car (17yo next Jan) in the meantime.
2) Whatever the manual says-change the “timing chain”/“belt every 6 yrs
Again, timing belt changes vary a reasonable amount from one (car) manufacturer to another, with some changing (officially or otherwise) change schedules dependent upon real-world life and the obvious severe consequences of part failures.
With timing chains, a well-designed system where the engine is provided with good quality fresh oil as per the car manufacturer's specs and per milegae/time (whichever is the soonest) should last the lifetime of the vehicle.
As Xileno says, changing the chains is a very expensive process that should only be done after a serious engine failure or where a design flaw (e.g. some VAGs where the chain link stamping machine was used beyond its life leading to manufacturing faults that weren't picked up before sale).
3) wiper blades every 3 yrs
Once again, this depends upon usage and how/where the car is kept and maintained. Wiper blades that are rarely cleaned and the car left in the sun/freezing cold and/or under trees where sap or bird poo is a problem will lead to the blades not lasting anywhere near 3 years, even on low usage cars.
With more favourable environments and cleaning them every now and then should prolong their life, maybe over 3 years if you're lucky and you use good quality blades.
4)strictly follow Mot guidelines/report on brake maintenance/pads/discs
What 'MOT guidleines'? Either they pass, pass with an advisory (which you're not obliged to do anything about by law) or they fail. In my view, it's far better to have a good mechanic who will inform you via the service plus your own judgement via driving to what needs replacing and when. In my view, relying on MOTs to change parts is not a good idea.
5)if one headlight bulb goes?-also replace “the other”
I don't see why that needs to be done. Bulbs can go at any point, and thus an 'old' bulb may have years of decent life left when its partner is replaced. If both aren't doing the job that they used to and one fails, then both should be replaced, but then both should already have been.
6) weekly check on brake, coolant and windscreen levels
Again, very dependent on usage for fluids.
7) monthly tyre pressure check
As a minimum. For high mileage cars, maybe half as much. Similarly where its used on poorly surfaced roads - i.e. check for damage as much as inflation issues.
8) monthly oil dipstick check
This can vary hugely between makes and specific cars. Some are designed to use oil (though not in huge amounts, e.g. some 'TSI' type engine where it contributes to higher fuel efficiency by design), other cars have been shown to use a lot due to poor engine design, unsympathetic usage and/or poor maintenence (often over long periods of ownership).
Many well-designed engines that are treated sympathetically and well maintained rarely need to have the oil level/quality checked. Perhaps as they get much older will check need to be done more often.
I initially checked my 16yo Mazda3 1.6 petrol every couple of months (essentially bought new) for the first few years, then not since - just at the annual service, as it's never had a problem on that front. I may start thinking about checking it again as the car nears 20yo.
9) Vac inside and wash once a fortnight-wax every 6 months
For the former, it again depends upon how the user(s) treat the car and how often it's used. A proper external clean every now and then will certainly keep the finish in good order and help protect agains corrosion to some degree.
Again, somewhat dependent upon the car make - some seem more hardy than others. Using some specialist cleaning and revitalising products on the interior (plastic) parts every now and then may also be in order, especially if the car is parked in the sun a lot. Using blinds/shades may help reduce sun/heat damage.
10)jet wash underneath -big time-twice a year
Depends on usage, where it's parked at home/work and where most of it's usage is. people living/working in coastal areas or who regularly use their car on muddy roads or in winter on regularly salted roads should wash off debris more often to reduce corrosion damage. For some, maybe having an underbody treatment every few years may help even more.
Essentially its all horse-for-courses rather than some rigid schedule, which may cost a fortune and may not provide any significant extra benefit on the one hand or be cheap and should be done more often depending upon the car and ownership circumstances.
The one thing you left out that I mentioned in amongst the timing chains bit is for the car to see fresh (high quality) oil on on schedule and for things like the fuel and air filters to be changed as per schedule.
High quality maintenance as well as sympathetic use and ownership egenrally makes a huge difference to how long a car can last as well as the level of bills incurred during ownership, plus qhat it's worth when sold on.
I've seen cars from what would normally be considered 'iffy' makes over the years last ages because they've been properly looked after (but wiothout going overboard). On the other hand, I've also seen some from renowned makes for longevity/reliability that have not been well cared for / abused by their owner that have not stood the test of time.
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You beat me to a comprehensive demolition of these mostly OTT suggestions - presumably from a garage owner!
It clearly makes financial sense for a low mileage driver to choose a well made used car and keep it as long as possible. The average age of my two cars will be 30 next May. Neither has ever been steam cleaned. My Ziebarted unrestored (apart from a tart-up respray in 1992) TR7 is 42yrs old and the aluminium ageless Audi is a mere 16yrs young. I suspect its high quality wipers might be original, they haven't been replaced in more than eight years of my ownership. Their timing chains will probably never need changing. But I would add another suggestion - which I appreciate many cannot do - keep it in a cool dry garage.
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SWMBO had only three used high mileage family cars in 35yrs (mileage we got out of them in brackets) Passat GL5 Est 1984-1994 (179,000) Passat Est 2.0GL 1994-2004 (237,000), Focus Est 2004 - 2019 (113,000 - then another 20,000 with son). Never garage 'serviced', their longevity was of course a result of my careful maintenance - done only when necessary ;-) Total cost £25,500. She's still over the moon with her NEW Pug 2008 (1st MoT due in Nov).
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Statistics can be confusing and the media tend to add to it.
The average date upon which a car is scrapped is ~14 years. There are obviously a lot of cars older than that still being used - it is an average!
The average age of a car on UK roads is 8 years. This is not the average length of ownership, or the average date upon which it is scrapped. Being an average means that there are as many cars older than 8 years as newer than 8 years.
Barring accidents, few cars are scrapped in the first 10 years of life. Government estimate shows about 2% are pre 2000 (20+ years old) - approx 1.5m.
Vehicle Licensing Statistics: Annual 2020 (publishing.service.gov.uk)
Given (a) the average age is 8 years, (b) assuming few are scrapped before 8 years old, (c) only 2 % are still around over 20 years old, suggests that most cars are scrapped between 9 and 20 years of age.
This seems intuitively reasonable.
In Europe cars are averagely 11.8 years old - partly driven by some less prosperous ex-eastern bloc countries, offset by Luxembourg with an average age of 6.7years (EU plutocrats??). Make of that what you want.
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My Peugeot 206 diesel is 20 years old. In all that time its sailed through each MOT with the occasional minor of advisories - which are dealt with within a week.
It still polishes up beautifully and there's no rust.
My previous Peugeot 307 was the same. I occasionally check it on the MOT check website and smile when I see its got through another MOT without a problem and is still on the road.
I've got absolutely no desire or need to replace it with anything newer, it does everything I need from a car.
Edited by Gibbo_Wirral on 09/09/2022 at 13:21
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Just keep an eye on the bits you can't see - underneath, sills mainly.
PSA certainly know how to treat their cars. The window cleaner that works these streets drives a battered old Peugeot Partner (2001), there's not an undamaged panel on it but even where the paint has come off, the exposed grey metal doesn't seem to rust.
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Statistics can be confusing and the media tend to add to it. The average date upon which a car is scrapped is ~14 years. There are obviously a lot of cars older than that still being used - it is an average!
Assuming that we are all interpreting these figures correctly, I am interested that the average age of cars on the road is rather more than half their average lifetime. Presumably that reflects the recent slowdown in buying new ?
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Statistics can be confusing and the media tend to add to it. The average date upon which a car is scrapped is ~14 years. There are obviously a lot of cars older than that still being used - it is an average!
Assuming that we are all interpreting these figures correctly, I am interested that the average age of cars on the road is rather more than half their average lifetime. Presumably that reflects the recent slowdown in buying new ?
If I recall other HJ reports, this figure was already on the rise for a good number of years, possibly due to the significant improvement in rust-proofing of modern cars.
What will be interesting is to see what effect the change to significantly higher amounts and complexity of car electronics and safety systems has on the lifespan of cars, especially in the context of how much they cost to repair/replace and current/ongoing world events that may make motoring too expensive for a lot of people.
Once the cars made from the mid 90s to 2010 have eventually reached the end of their lives, newer designed ones may be scrapped at an ealier stage despite them being physically sound.
It may also depend on whether costs of EVs can come down on their own to levels that the less well off can afford and if such vehicles can be 'refitted' every (say) 15-20 years with upgrades rather like a tower PC case can accept new components every now and then whilst keeping the outer casing. That may bring the cost of ownership down considerably and start up a whole new sector within motoring.
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My A4 Tdi 130 PD is at 03 getting on a bit but looking on the Quattro site they bought one at 530 k for £200 and found it in remarkable condition rust wise and even with its original exhaust ! air con compressor changed in time for this summer thank goodness.
I know the PD engine is known to be noisy but you have got to hand it to the Bosch engineers who developed it for VAG. The acceleration when the turbo kicks in !
Only be be designated to the bin when the new emission laws came in during the late 2000 s.
Mine has covered a mere 170 k and probably worthless which has its advantages as it’s unlikely to be stolen. So maybe I’ll keep it until something major goes.
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I tend to keep my cars from new to 200,000 miles which used to be about 5 years. Taking a bit longer than that to accumulate the miles now though. But, with regular and timely maintenance they seem to manage that sort of distance without too much trouble, or indeed any trouble in most cases. The Mercs in particular just shrug off the miles.
I strongly suspect they’d go on a lot longer if I needed them to.
Might just test that theory with the current one…
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The average is a "median" - the point where half is more than, and half is less than.
Assuming 30m cars the average age of 8 years is the point at which 15m are less than, and 15m are more than 8 years old.
Assume no cars are scrapped in the first 8 years (simplistic), 15m are scrapped in the following 6 years and 15m are left to be scrapped older than 14 years (the average). By 20 years old most are scrapped.
The prompt to scrap a car is mainly economic - historically rust, major mechanical failure, electronic complexity. economics of repair. The future may change this:
- affluence allowing folk to buy new cars (looks less likely right now!)
- reduced value of older cars - technological change making repair uneconomic
- regulatory - clean air zones, recycling requirements
- increasing reliability of electronics
EVs have the potential to be far more reliable than ICE due to the relative simplicity of the drivetrain, even though confidence (justified or not) in battery longevity and recharging networks needs improvement.
Those able to afford new cars will increasingly buy EVs. They will not be affordable s/h for many users for 5-10 years. As now with only (say) £5k a car will likely be 10 years+ old.
The difference is that for the next 5-10 years the only affordable option will be increasingly obsolete ICE technology. By 2032 there will be a reasonable supply of s/h EVs and by 2040 substantially all s/h cars will be EV.
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The average is a "median" - the point where half is more than, and half is less than.
Only if the rules have changed. An average is the Mean, calculated by summing all values and dividing by the count of values. Then there is the Mode, which is the most 'popular' value (which could be anywhere in the series).
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The average is a "median" - the point where half is more than, and half is less than.
Only if the rules have changed. An average is the Mean, calculated by summing all values and dividing by the count of values. Then there is the Mode, which is the most 'popular' value (which could be anywhere in the series).
Well, if I'd known there was a pedantry competition....
All three are 'averages'. But most people are referring to Mean when they say 'average'.
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Those who can afford to buy new will buy EV?
I disagree, I can but won’t.
Leasing is the only way as you hand it back after a period of time. If you buy with your own cash then technology will move on, performance and range will improve over time and you will soon be left with a worthless white elephant. Also we have hydrogen which to me possibly is the future.
It now costs £30+ to fill up will electric.
I’ll stick with petrol untill I can’t physically buy any more. (Even tho petrol car prices have been artificially inflated to make you buy EV’s.
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It costs me £2.50 to 'fill up' my electric car.
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£2.50? How so little?
50kwh hour battery at 5p per kWh off peak.
That gives me about 180 miles.
The car is leased through salary sacrifice, so I recover my income tax on the cost and pay 1% BIK. In all, it costs me £350 net a month for a brand new car including insurance, servicing and tyres. Then I pay £2.50 to fill it up..
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. If you buy with your own cash then technology will move on, performance and range will improve over time and you will soon be left with a worthless white elephant.
I have seen some derogatory comments about the Triumph TR7, but a 'worthless white elephant' is a new one on me! (Mine is British Racing Green, and is probably worth at least what I paid for it). And at nearly seventeen years old, the technology, performance and range of my erstwhile Audi flagship (W12 sport quattro), is still quite satisfactory. To me, leasing just disguises eye-watering four-figure annual depreciation of a car you don't even own!
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I have seen some derogatory comments about the Triumph TR7, but a 'worthless white elephant' is a new one on me!
No one is talking about your TR7
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<< Well, if I'd known there was a pedantry competition.... All three are 'averages'. But most people are referring to Mean when they say 'average'. >>
If someone introduces the word 'Median' they are being rather pedantic, by definition, or at any rate technical. And I personally would not consider a Mode value as any sort of meaningful 'average'.
:-)
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'Buy the best (you can afford) and make it last' is a good general adage. In many families, cared for low mileage cars are often passed on to the next generation. Did anyone see KCIII zooming home along the A40 in the family's ancient Royce? I think it might have been the 1978 Phantom rather than the 1987 one. For most people, the lack of modern bells and whistles is not an important issue. After all, the purpose of a motor car is merely to transport one and one's accoutrements (edited from 'baggage'...thought might be, er, inappropriate;-) from A to B in reasonable comfort and speed.
Edited by John F on 10/09/2022 at 08:56
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For most people, the lack of modern bells and whistles is not an important issue.
I'm not sure about this, John. You and I (and quite a few on here) are of an uncertain age, and we tend to think along those lines. But I suspect that younger generations are less interested in 'looking after' their cars and expect them to continue faultlessly. Therefore they prefer something newer, which will usually come with more bells and whistles than those like us expect. For instance sat-nav, which I am still happily without, although I realise it is indispensable for many people.
You could say that electric windows are not essential, and can be a bind if they go wrong and they don't work unless the 'key is in the ignition', but there aren't many cars without them now. Radios ? I never use mine, as while I like music, I also like to hear it properly, and road noise prevents that.
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EVs have the potential to be far more reliable than ICE due to the relative simplicity of the drivetrain, even though confidence (justified or not) in battery longevity and recharging networks needs improvement.
Old battery is big problem for EVs - just like old mobile phones.
If EVs come with removable batteries, then yes, they can potentially last very long. Just upgrade the software likes of phone/iPad and replace old batteries with new batteries.
But I think that model won't help manufactures as they want cars to become obsolete so people are forced to buy new cars.
There was a time when phones, laptops all came with user removable batteries but now all have built in batteries. Planned obsolescence.
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There was a time when phones, laptops all came with user removable batteries but now all have built in batteries. Planned obsolescence.
No, its progress in as much as circuits get smaller making room for bigger batteries, the fact they don`t last as long is the amount of tech in a phone, 4 and 5g are heavy in battery use the same as Bluetooth
the software does enable a battery to live longer as it does in an EV, as it controls the charging rate preventing fully charging and preventing battery run flat which can both kill a battery much faster than age...
I will keep a petrol engine car until EVs are proved to be as good in range as running a petrol on 50l of fuel, and as easy to charge/or fill, imo there is a long way for EVs to go and maybe wait for Hydrogen which imo is better!
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There was a time when phones, laptops all came with user removable batteries but now all have built in batteries. Planned obsolescence
My 8 year old Sony Xperia smartphone was supposed to have a sealed battery. 4 batteries later I still have it, although admittedly it's getting laggy. But there are ways around.
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There was a time when phones, laptops all came with user removable batteries but now all have built in batteries. Planned obsolescence
I bought my first laptop in 2002. It was a Dell Inspiron and as you say the battery was removable. 14" display, 128 mb RAM (upgraded to 256 mb for £0) and a 20 gb HD (eventually had to upgrade RAM to 512 mb when it virtually stopped), single core Intel processor and Windows XP Home.
Cost me about £700. It lasted about 8 years before the backlighting in the display started to act up, no one wanted to touch it.
In July bought the wife a new Acer laptop. 17" display, 16 gb RAM (upgradable to some stupid number), 520 gb SSD (space inside for another SSD and also space for a 2 1/2" SSD, 8 core i7 processor and Widows 11 Home. But the battery is not user serviceable.
Considering the spec is on a different planet to the Dell the price of £800 seemed pretty reasonable to me especially when you consider the wage increases in the last 20 years.
But there are plenty of places that offer to swap batteries in phones, tablets, laptops etc so its not the end of the device. However, most people replace them long before they need fixing, got to have the latest.
Same will happen to EV's in a few short years, its already happening with old Toyota's.
I bought myself a Dell laptop in 2008 and after about 4 years the battery failed. Simply took it out, laptop still works, cost to fix, £0.
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The only reason I replaced my phone is the version of Android it was running couldn't be updated and u couldn't do online banking with it any more. Other than that it was perfectly ok.
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..... they prefer something newer, which will usually come with more bells and whistles than those like us expect. For instance sat-nav, which I am still happily without, although I realise it is indispensable for many people...
My Audi's MMI system not only has sat nav, it also has an onboard phone facility with the ability to make hands free calls to anyone you have uploaded into its directory. But they are now obsolescent, superseded by a clip-on attachment to a dashboard air vent to hold a modern cell phone which can do both.
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Most EV manufacturers guarantee battery output at ~80% and 100k after 8 years.
Which magazine which I regard as generally objective and honest, found that at 7 years old batteries had lost an average of 9% of capacity. They also found that ~6% of owners had battery packs replaced - I assume most under warranty.
There is understandable concern about the unknown - ICE has been around for more than 125 years, but none of the figures for EV would concern me greatly.
Most ICE engines and drivetrains are not faultless to 8 years and 100k. Some fail, need significant repairs and degrade materially. Difference - ICE have had over 100 years to get it right, EV has plenty of room for improvement through further development.
Edited by Terry W on 10/09/2022 at 19:50
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There is understandable concern about the unknown - ICE has been around for more than 125 years, but none of the figures for EV would concern me greatly.
I don't feel 'concern about the unknown' regarding EVs. I simply don't want to go backwards in terms of everyday convenience. If a suitably 'cheap' EV came on the market offering the same abilities as my timeworn diesel car I might - just might - consider it.
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I simply don't want to go backwards in terms of everyday convenience. If a suitably 'cheap' EV came on the market offering the same abilities as my timeworn diesel car I might - just might - consider it.
Fair comment in some ways - others could see it as clinging on to old technology long after its sell by date.
Compared to a timeworn diesel, EVs are unlikely to be affordable s/h for possibly 5 years+ anyway - arguments are often made to support an inevitable personal conclusion.
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Most EV manufacturers guarantee battery output at ~80% and 100k after 8 years.
Most ICE cars have a continent fuel tank of original volume and 100% fuel output at 100k and 8 years. Also, doesn't weigh much, even when full, which it rarely is.
Most ICE engines and drivetrains are not faultless to 8 years and 100k.
I disagree. Even including the small market for the higher stressed powertrains of sportier models, the vast majority of mundane cars, if well maintained and not abused, will have no expensive powertrain problems at this age and mileage.
Difference - ICE have had over 100 years to get it right, EV has plenty of room for improvement through further development.
EVs have been around far longer than ICE vehicles. (suggest read 'history of EVs' in Wiki). Thanks to cheap coal and, until recently, cheap oil, the UK lagged far behind other countries in developing electric motors and their gearing for use on road and rail.
The main reason why so many (and there still aren't that many) EVs are on our roads is because of the amazing tax benefits afforded to the business buyer.
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<< Thanks to cheap coal and, until recently, cheap oil, the UK lagged far behind other countries in developing electric motors and their gearing for use on road and rail. >>
Aren't you forgetting underground trains, John ? Our Victorians soon discovered the problems of steam trains below the streets of London and converted them to electric before the end of that century (can't remember exactly when, have to look it up).
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Most ICE cars have a continent fuel tank of original volume and 100% fuel output at 100k and 8 years. Also, doesn't weigh much, even when full, which it rarely is.
Even including the small market for the higher stressed powertrains of sportier models, the vast majority of mundane cars, if well maintained and not abused, will have no expensive powertrain problems at this age and mileage.
EVs have been around far longer than ICE vehicles. (suggest read 'history of EVs' in Wiki). Thanks to cheap coal and, until recently, cheap oil, the UK lagged far behind other countries in developing electric motors and their gearing for use on road and rail.
The main reason why so many (and there still aren't that many) EVs are on our roads is because of the amazing tax benefits afforded to the business buyer.
You are right about continence - the tendency is for performance to degrade and economy suffers as ICE ages.
Complete powertrain failure is not common, but partial failure is - clutches, cylinder head gaskets, exhausts, etc. The major difference is that an ICE has ~200 moving parts, an EV ~20 - the probability of failure of is inevitably much higher.
The first electric car made an appearance in 1890. The first internal combustion engine in 1863, although arguably the steam engine predated both these by up to 1700 years!
The lithium ion battery which made EV generally feasible due to its light weight was invented in 1985 by Akiro Yoshino.
High EV battery cost made them uncompetitive initially although over the last decade costs have fallen by 80%+.. If you believe (you may not) EV is the future for personal transport, they need a subsidy to kick start the transition. No one expects it to last.
Edited by Terry W on 11/09/2022 at 10:36
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High EV battery cost made them uncompetitive initially although over the last decade costs have fallen by 80%+.. If you believe (you may not) EV is the future for personal transport, they need a subsidy to kick start the transition. No one expects it to last.
I don't think they do need a kick start with subsidies to get to a transition point - only if you want to do the transition quicker do you need to offer people an incentive for doing it. As the moment there is no other viable commercial option other than EV's as an alternative to ICE vehicles.
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Most ICE engines and drivetrains are not faultless to 8 years and 100k. Some fail, need significant repairs and degrade materially.
I must be bucking the trend. I've had my 2014 tsi 1.4tsi Superb from nearly new fitted with an engine supposedly made of cheese. At over 8 years old and 106k miles it still performs as it was when I first bought it and economy is the same ignoring E10 petrol! I've just recently driven back from Northumberland to Yorkshire and averaged 51.5mpg on the fairly typical journey. Other than servicing (fixed 10k / 1 year) it's never had any mechanical issues (touching wood!).
My previous 2003 Superb 1.9pd was still mechanically "superb" under new ownership but did eventually degrade(fail MOT) due to the dreaded tinworm. Rust is still a thing!!
I've previously done high yearly mileages and bought a nearly new cheapish car to last 10 years and throw away(ish). Now I've retired and the car market is so bonkers - who knows!!
Edited by Big John on 12/09/2022 at 00:31
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