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I am having my Golf serviced at my indie after three years of main dealer servicing. It’s on fixed mileage servicing but he proposed using 0w20 oil which is the VW spec long-life oil recommended by his trade oil supplier. It’s not extortionate in price so he is not trying to build the bill. However the main dealer always used 0w30. The indie then checked his VW OEM parts supplier and their advice was 5w40 but confirmed that 0w30 can be used. Clearly too the longlife oil can be used for fixed mileage servicing.
Each of these meet the generic VW oil spec in the handbook which is VW 502/504/508 without any advice in the viscosity as such. I am bemused that there is not an immediate “go to” oil viscosity for such a common engine and I assume it doesn’t matter much in our temperate climate.
Anyway, I couldn’t see any particular advantages or disadvantages with the options so I am sticking with the 0w30 as per the main dealer.
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Normally what you need is stated on the engine oil filler cap, though I would've though it should be stated in the handbook somewhere. Note also that the recommendations are often specific to each engine type/size and where in the world you are (temperature).
I personally would stick to whatever the manufacturer says you should use for your car and locale. It may or may not be of a different grade for 'longlife' oil though.
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Thanks Andy but you overestimate the amount of service info that VW provide. The oil cap just says Castrol. However the dealer (Inchcape) use Mobil.
The handbook is poor on service detail. it doesn’t have an oil chart where you can read off the spec. It’s just a bunch of text that you need to go through to identify the oil. Even then it’s just (for example) a high level description such as VW 502 00. You then have to Google on general sites to find out what viscosities this covers. I have done this but it’s still an apparently wide range of options. Hence my bemusement at trying to understand what the official manufacturer’s guidance is.
A further routine service example is spark plugs. Nothing in the handbook on intervals for spark plug changes but the dealer site says it’s on the major service ie every two years “if required”. At about £100 a time it’s not the trivial cost plugs used to be. Googling shows that 4 years or 40k miles is actually what’s specified. Thats also what my indie’s database tells him so they are being done this time round.
I know handbooks generally have become less helpful to the DIY’r or interested owner but this is the poorest I have come across for the lack of basic, clear info.
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You could try downloading the "Comma oil finder" app.
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Chris thanks. It recommends the 5w40 (so different from main dealer but the same as the parts specialist) for fixed service but for flexible recommends the 0w20 with 5w30 as an alternative. So yet another one in the mix.
All I am sure are fine so there are a surprising variety of alternatives.
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Chris thanks. It recommends the 5w40 (so different from main dealer but the same as the parts specialist) for fixed service but for flexible recommends the 0w20 with 5w30 as an alternative. So yet another one in the mix.
All I am sure are fine so there are a surprising variety of alternatives.
5w30 appears to be quite a common grade of oil used in cars a few years ago, like my 16yo Mazda3 petrol, but I think newer cars, especially VAGs that 'deliberately use oil' because of the TSI engine design, seem to prefer less viscous grades. Whether that's the case here though...
I wonder how much more expensive car maintenance is these days given how many more variants of X, Y and Z that are required by cars from different makes that 15+ years ago would've all used the same products or grades. No standardisation = higher costs?
Other than engine oil, tyres is one that definitely has put prices up for replacements.
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Thanks Andy but you overestimate the amount of service info that VW provide. The oil cap just says Castrol. However the dealer (Inchcape) use Mobil.
The handbook is poor on service detail. it doesn’t have an oil chart where you can read off the spec. It’s just a bunch of text that you need to go through to identify the oil. Even then it’s just (for example) a high level description such as VW 502 00. You then have to Google on general sites to find out what viscosities this covers. I have done this but it’s still an apparently wide range of options. Hence my bemusement at trying to understand what the official manufacturer’s guidance is.
A further routine service example is spark plugs. Nothing in the handbook on intervals for spark plug changes but the dealer site says it’s on the major service ie every two years “if required”. At about £100 a time it’s not the trivial cost plugs used to be. Googling shows that 4 years or 40k miles is actually what’s specified. Thats also what my indie’s database tells him so they are being done this time round.
I know handbooks generally have become less helpful to the DIY’r or interested owner but this is the poorest I have come across for the lack of basic, clear info.
Blimey! You'd have thought that of ALL the things needed, what oil to use would be in the top two (other than tyre pressures), given how crutial they are to the short and long-term health of the car. Whether this is a 'modern thingy' or one of VAG's many qwerks, I don't know.
My condolences.
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The difference in kinematic viscosity between 0W20 0W30 and 5W30 at normal temperatures is actually very small. All are suitable provided you buy an oil which meets the VW speCification. The big push toward 0W20 in recent years is largely due to fuel economy considerations (less losses in the engine).
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I know handbooks generally have become less helpful to the DIY’r or interested owner but this is the poorest I have come across for the lack of basic, clear info.
I'm not up-to-date with car handbooks, but that is certainly true in my limited experience of Peugeots. But the handbook for my 207 offers three viscosity grades, which I assume any owner can choose from, perhaps taking into account ambient temperature and season.
Some have suggested that makers are advising thinner oil to achieve a marginal reduction in fuel consumption to get below some EU cutoff line. But I'm not convinced that there is only one magically perfect oil viscosity for each engine. Changing oil (and maybe filter) at proper intervals - not necessarily those in the handbook - is probably a more important consideration.
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. Changing oil (and maybe filter) at proper intervals - not necessarily those in the handbook - is probably a more important consideration.
Very true - and by 'proper intervals' I hope you mean mileage rather than time.
In theory, a 'thinner' oil will give fractionally better fuel economy, but debatable whether enough to offset the greater cost of the oil. I have no idea of its effect on an engine's longevity, but as the average mileage of old scrapped cars is not much above 100,000 miles and a looked-after engine these days should be good for 200,000 miles, I wouldn't worry. I have always used the cheapest acceptable grade I could find. Our three high miler family car engines (one with over 240,000 miles) were still running OK when disposed of.
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. Changing oil (and maybe filter) at proper intervals - not necessarily those in the handbook - is probably a more important consideration.
Very true - and by 'proper intervals' I hope you mean mileage rather than time.
In theory, a 'thinner' oil will give fractionally better fuel economy, but debatable whether enough to offset the greater cost of the oil. I have no idea of its effect on an engine's longevity, but as the average mileage of old scrapped cars is not much above 100,000 miles and a looked-after engine these days should be good for 200,000 miles, I wouldn't worry. I have always used the cheapest acceptable grade I could find. Our three high miler family car engines (one with over 240,000 miles) were still running OK when disposed of.
Not sure why some people think they know more than the manufacturer. The manufacturer specifies the 'proper' service interval (time and mileage') and the correct oil.
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<< Not sure why some people think they know more than the manufacturer. The manufacturer specifies the 'proper' service interval (time and mileage') and the correct oil. >>
For the same reason that some people think they know more than others. Plus the factor that makers need to keep a business profitable, which may lead to keeping fleet buyers onside by lengthening recommended service intervals possibly too far ?
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Not sure why some people think they know more than the manufacturer.
It would be quite difficult to know more than the manufacturer knows.
Its sometimes quite easy to know better than the manufacturer says.
Because they are sometimes full of it.
Edited by edlithgow on 30/05/2022 at 01:53
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. Changing oil (and maybe filter) at proper intervals - not necessarily those in the handbook - is probably a more important consideration.
Very true - and by 'proper intervals' I hope you mean mileage rather than time. .
Not sure why some people think they know more than the manufacturer. The manufacturer specifies the 'proper' service interval (time and mileage') and the correct oil.
Sometimes the 'specification' is absurdly irrational. The handbook of my 1980 TR7 specifies an oil change every 6000 miles or annually, but if the annual mileage is substantially less than 12,000 a year, this should be done every six months. If I had followed this ridiculous advice I would have had to have changed the oil well over fifty times for a car which has done only 72,000 miles!! It has actually had 14 engine oil changes since new (ten of them before 1997) and it is still working perfectly.
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Not sure why some people think they know more than the manufacturer. The manufacturer specifies the 'proper' service interval (time and mileage') and the correct oil.
Because things change long after the handbook and recommendations have been printed and lots of long term driving feedback has been obtained from owners and dealer servicing.
Peugeot used to specify 20,000 mile oil change intervals in their diesel manuals.
After 3 years and lots of issues with turbo oil starvation that was changed. But they never sent out revised manuals.
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Not sure why some people think they know more than the manufacturer. The manufacturer specifies the 'proper' service interval (time and mileage') and the correct oil.
Because things change long after the handbook and recommendations have been printed and lots of long term driving feedback has been obtained from owners and dealer servicing.
Peugeot used to specify 20,000 mile oil change intervals in their diesel manuals.
After 3 years and lots of issues with turbo oil starvation that was changed. But they never sent out revised manuals.
True, but it's unlikely the bodged up what oil should be used. May an additional grade of oil could be added to what is safe to use...
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So seems you have a very wide viscosity choice even within VW spec. constraints.
i.e. it doesn't matter much, as you say.
Rational choice would depend on what you want. Either
(a) Greatest possible fuel economy: skinniest oil available.
(b) Best wear protection: Thickest oil available.
This in turn would depend on mileage and how long you intend to keep the car.
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So seems you have a very wide viscosity choice even within VW spec. constraints.
i.e. it doesn't matter much, as you say.
Rational choice would depend on what you want. Either
(a) Greatest possible fuel economy: skinniest oil available.
(b) Best wear protection: Thickest oil available.
This in turn would depend on mileage and how long you intend to keep the car.
Wrong. Flow rate and additive pack comes into it. Thick oil doesn't mean less wear.
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In fact the thinnest oil in the range I have been offered (0w20) is actually the one that claims the longest life in both time and mileage due to its additive pack. There are also not any horror stories about engine wear from it.
My simplistic view is that good “thin” oil will coat metal surfaces as well as good “thick” oil. For the crucial, high wear, cold starts it’s the thinner properties than offer the protection. I am sure others will have a more scientific view either way.
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In fact the thinnest oil in the range I have been offered (0w20) is actually the one that claims the longest life in both time and mileage due to its additive pack. There are also not any horror stories about engine wear from it.
My simplistic view is that good “thin” oil will coat metal surfaces as well as good “thick” oil. For the crucial, high wear, cold starts it’s the thinner properties than offer the protection. I am sure others will have a more scientific view either way.
Toyota use on the new engines 0w16 which is for less wear and quicker starting from cold/makes for lower emission's which is the main thing, apparently they are working on 0w8 now for the newly designed engines and the Hydrogen powered engines that they are working on, that includes the HGV units being tested in Japan at the moment
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In fact the thinnest oil in the range I have been offered (0w20) is actually the one that claims the longest life in both time and mileage due to its additive pack. There are also not any horror stories about engine wear from it.
My simplistic view is that good “thin” oil will coat metal surfaces as well as good “thick” oil. For the crucial, high wear, cold starts it’s the thinner properties than offer the protection. I am sure others will have a more scientific view either way.
Toyota use on the new engines 0w16 which is for less wear and quicker starting from cold/makes for lower emission's which is the main thing, apparently they are working on 0w8 now for the newly designed engines and the Hydrogen powered engines that they are working on, that includes the HGV units being tested in Japan at the moment
Its for fuel economy.
If you use less fuel, you have lower emissions.
The other claims seem to be mostly unsupported marketing noise.
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For the crucial, high wear, cold starts it’s the thinner properties than offer the protection. I am sure others will have a more scientific view either way.
That may vary somewhat, depending how widely spaced the cold starts are ? Thin oil will drain down rather quicker than thick ?
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For the crucial, high wear, cold starts it’s the thinner properties than offer the protection. I am sure others will have a more scientific view either way.
That may vary somewhat, depending how widely spaced the cold starts are ? Thin oil will drain down rather quicker than thick ?
'Drain down' from where? Modern engines have small running clearances between components. Thin oil will stay there due to capilliary action/surface tension. It won't drain anywhere.
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Modern engines have small running clearances between components.
Dunno if this mantra is actually true, (except of course in the sense that all engine clearances are are fairly "small")
IIRC the few examples I've seen where clearance specs from newer and older model cars were actually quoted didn't support it.
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<< 'Drain down' from where? Modern engines have small running clearances between components. Thin oil will stay there due to capillary action/surface tension. It won't drain anywhere. >>
In normal use, when an engine is running, oil is circulating among the moving parts - pistons, valves, crankshafts, etc. When the engine is not running the oil usually collects in the sump which (again usually) is below those moving parts. That process can take some time to complete, which may have some connection with viscosity. 'Capillary action' is unable to support a thick layer of anything indefinitely.
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<< 'Drain down' from where? Modern engines have small running clearances between components. Thin oil will stay there due to capillary action/surface tension. It won't drain anywhere. >>
In normal use, when an engine is running, oil is circulating among the moving parts - pistons, valves, crankshafts, etc. When the engine is not running the oil usually collects in the sump which (again usually) is below those moving parts. That process can take some time to complete, which may have some connection with viscosity. 'Capillary action' is unable to support a thick layer of anything indefinitely.
Hot oil, whether 20-grade or 50-grade, is so thin that it will run off the surface of most engine components before the engine has cooled down. That's largely irrelevant. Oil clinging to the underside of a piston is not preventing wear. What is important is that a thin layer Of oil remains between stationary surfaces (e.g. bearing journals) ready to protect the engine when it is next started. I have taken apart engines that have been standing a year and there is still oil sitting between cam and crank bearing journals. Modern lightweight synthetic oils are quite capable of staying in place between the sliding surfaces. Thinner oils flow better at low-medium temperatures - important when getting oil to critical components (VVTI, VANOS mechanism, turbos etc).
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<< Oil clinging to the underside of a piston is not preventing wear. >>
I was thinking more of oil not held between mating surfaces - such as cylinder walls, cams and cam followers ...
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<< Oil clinging to the underside of a piston is not preventing wear. >>
I was thinking more of oil not held between mating surfaces - such as cylinder walls, cams and cam followers ...
I have never taken an engine apart that parts of,doesnt have oil on, even piston skirts/bores have a smear of oil on them
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Thick oil doesn't mean less wear.
Yes.
It does.
Other stuff like additive pack being equal, of course, which you have to assume for any meaningful statement on the question to be made.
Whether the additive pack on these VAG spec. oils IS in fact equal I dunno, but its possible the inherently lower wear protection of the skinniest is compensated for by a better boundary tribolayer for when contact occurs.
OTOH flow rate does not mean lower wear. It means flow rate.
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