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Hi Oli Rag. It was below minimum I'm afraid, but still some on the bottom of the dipstick. It has a 3.5l of capacity and I think I but 1.5-2l in to bring it up to the maximum mark.
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Hi Oli Rag. It was below minimum I'm afraid, but still some on the bottom of the dipstick.
That might have just been splashed upwards. Was there still a level visible on the dipstick after it had been cleaned, reinserted, then pulled out again?
It has a 3.5l of capacity and I think I but 1.5-2l in to bring it up to the maximum mark.
To run a four cylinder engine with only 1.5 litres of oil risks oil starvation to the bearings. They might be damaged. In the absence of excess oil usage it is a moot point whether to soldier on, keeping an ear open for further deterioration, or whether to incur probably several hundred poundsworth of engine teardown and replacement of bearing shells and possibly broken piston ring(s).
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With the oil having been so low, the damage is probably quite bad. As John has said, it’s difficult to know what to do, although I’d be tempted to keep using it as the damage is already done.
Replacing the engine for a secondhand unit would be my choice over a rebuild - if you decided to do either, but I suspect that’s not cost effective.
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Thanks John and Oli. It's so hard to know what to do. There is damage but what's the extent. What ever it is it's not a cheap fix but I need a car. The decision is a bit of a balancing act.
1. Scrap the car and get another. This is the most expensive option, I think, and comes with the usual concerns associated with buying a used car, especially at this price bracket (4-5k), which could entail further expense in the first year of ownership.
2. Further investigations and fix the car. Could be the cheapest fix, if it's possible but would still be high cost. Possibility damage is extensive, or further damage appears later.
3. Swap the engine for a used one. The middle ground. A bit concerned about the not knowing anything about the swap engine but I've been told that a replacement engine could come with a guarantee. How much this would be worth if a problem shows up.
4. Refurbish the engine. This is the most expensive way to keep the car but it does give a level of confidence that the engine would be good as new. If anything else goes wrong it can be fixed knowing the engine has years left in it. On the down side have been told the engine in these cars is not worth it. It's even more expensive.
5. Run the car until it stops. Once it stops the first 4 options can be considered again and no one can say how long it might last, could be a while. The big question for me is, how safe would it be as almost all of my driving is on the motorway (a good stretch of it "smart").
I've found a couple of places that do the type of work in options 2-4 so they would look at it properly and advise. I can make a decision what to do and they will carry out the work. I'm leaning towards that. I know most people wouldn't consider this kind of work for a cheap car but financially it could be cheaper to fix than get something else and I do tend to want to fix things.
Am I mad?
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Your car is 10 years old and none of the of the options which involve spending big money are just not worth it and no guarantee that you will get it properly fixed. Even a second hand engine if needed is not worth the expense.
Your car could run for thousands of miles depending on the cause of the noise I would choose this option and keep a close eye on the oil. If the noise is constant all the more reason to run it as it is. Failing this I would part ex the car while it is still running.. It always pays to get another opinion on engine"" faults/noises"" it may not even be the engine if as you say it is pulling fine. Your garage has not given you a specific diagnosis, any sort of engine strip down is expensive and you would need a very strong reason to go this way and as I said not worth it
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Can you hear the tapping noise when the engine is hot? If you can't, it may be a worn timing chain. This is located under a cover on the left side of the engine has you look at it. We have been running a 2010 i20 since new that has covered 72000. It makes a slight tapping noise when it is started from cold, that disappears when the engine has reach operating temperature. I believe that only Hyundia dealers can change these because a special tool is required. The cost is in the region of £500, may be worth investigating if the rest of the car is in good condition. This said I would be alarmed at the oil consumption, keep an eye on it and if it drops again the problem is probably something else. Our car has never used any oil between annual services.
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5. Run the car until it stops.
That would be my choice. If the noise is not that loud there might not be much damage at all and you could get many more thousands of miles out of it.
The big question for me is, how safe would it be as almost all of my driving is on the motorway (a good stretch of it "smart").
It is very rare for an engine which has sufficient oil and water to suddenly go bang without first displaying signs of distress, e.g. losing power, making much more noise than usual. If I was concerned about its fragility, I would stress it on a quiet stretch of road or non-smart motorway. When thoroughly warmed, I'd give it a good thrashing, e.g. up to the red line maximum allowed revs through the gears. (Occasionally doing this is actually good for engines). If it doesn't break or make the noise worse, it will probably happily trundle along at 70mph for a good while yet.
Am I mad?
Not apparently. Just keep a close eye on the oil usage, i.e. miles per 500ml top-ups. Shouldn't be less than 500 miles, normally many more than this.
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Take a long drive in town in heavy traffic, its more stressful than a motorway drive and no need to take engine to red line, drive normally, any tapping if a problem will either get worse or stay the same, and keep an eye on engine temperature, if it survives that it will survive anything, damage could be small ends but they can last years, but keep engine oil checked and replace at half interval, as mentioned keep an eye on oil level, thats what I would do
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... keep engine oil checked and replace at half interval, as mentioned keep an eye on oil level, that's what I would do.
It may become a necessary habit to check all fluid levels and tyre pressures on a car more often. It takes very little time and can be a life-(and car)-saver. It may feel uncomfortable to buy oil every now and then, that's all.
Way back in the 1960s my Morris 1100 lost oil fast because of leaking seals, to the point that I needed some whenever I bought petrol. Luckily that was in Canada or the States, where the cost was minimal.
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... keep engine oil checked and replace at half interval, as mentioned keep an eye on oil level, that's what I would do.
It may become a necessary habit to check all fluid levels and tyre pressures on a car more often. It takes very little time and can be a life-(and car)-saver. It may feel uncomfortable to buy oil every now and then, that's all.
Way back in the 1960s my Morris 1100 lost oil fast because of leaking seals, to the point that I needed some whenever I bought petrol. Luckily that was in Canada or the States, where the cost was minimal.
Yes basic checks should be a weekly thing.
A friend had a Morris Marina which he used to put a drip tray underneath when parking and then used to empty back into the engine. Yes the dirt etc couldn't have done much good but given the quantity of leaked oil....
The oil used to leak onto the exhaust manifold and catch fire so he modified the windscreen washer to squirt water onto the manifold as well as the windscreen!
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The oil used to leak onto the exhaust manifold and catch fire
I had a cream crackered company car 1.3 mkIII Escort that did that - we said it had an external combustion engine!
Edited by Big John on 08/04/2022 at 23:40
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A friend had a Morris Marina which he used to put a drip tray underneath when parking and then used to empty back into the engine. Yes the dirt etc couldn't have done much good but given the quantity of leaked oil....
The oil used to leak onto the exhaust manifold and catch fire so he modified the windscreen washer to squirt water onto the manifold as well as the windscreen!
Like that. Not many of us left though.
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5. Run the car until it stops.
That would be my choice. If the noise is not that loud there might not be much damage at all and you could get many more thousands of miles out of it.
The big question for me is, how safe would it be as almost all of my driving is on the motorway (a good stretch of it "smart").
It is very rare for an engine which has sufficient oil and water to suddenly go bang without first displaying signs of distress, e.g. losing power, making much more noise than usual. If I was concerned about its fragility, I would stress it on a quiet stretch of road or non-smart motorway. When thoroughly warmed, I'd give it a good thrashing, e.g. up to the red line maximum allowed revs through the gears. (Occasionally doing this is actually good for engines). If it doesn't break or make the noise worse, it will probably happily trundle along at 70mph for a good while yet.
Am I mad?
Not apparently. Just keep a close eye on the oil usage, i.e. miles per 500ml top-ups. Shouldn't be less than 500 miles, normally many more than this.
I wouldn't "stress test" it as described above, Seems rather looking for trouble, though I take the point about wishing to avoid incidents on the motorway.
I would consider using thicker oil than recommended. IF you have excess bearing clearance (which AFAICT there is not evidence for apart from the circumstance of low oil) this will provide an additional cushion to limit movement and further wear.
Up to you of course, but in these circumstances recommendations mostly aimed at lowering fuel consumption wouldnt carry much weight with me.
Don't discount other possible causes, even outside the engine. Does it do it when you are not moving?
EDIT: I see you say it does. That points to the engine, but, as mentioned above, it could be timing gear. It could also be associated with externals like auxilliary drive belts or pulleys, though your garage investigation will hopefully have eliminated those.
If it still has the original oil in, having been topped up, an elemental oil analysis should show excess lead and copper if there has been heavy bearing wear. Won't fix it of course, but it will give you a relatively cheap clue as to what you are dealing with.
Edited by edlithgow on 09/04/2022 at 01:47
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Slightly off topic (because it seems to be treating the symptom rather than the cause) I've seen "noise reducing" engine oil for sale here. I dunno how (or if) it works, but IIRC it was a 15W40, so not spectacularly high in viscosity.
It was twice the price of the same-brand (China Petroleum Corporation) "non noise reducing" viscosity equivalent, so I'm not likely to try it.
Unlike using high viscosity oil, there's no good reason to think this will offer better protection, since all that is claimed is noise reduction.
I dunno if there is any equivalent product on the UK market.
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I wouldn't "stress test" it as described above, Seems rather looking for trouble, though I take the point about wishing to avoid incidents on the motorway.
Precisely why it was suggested, with our smart motorways it is probably safer to break down in town than on the S motorway, it will also show up problems faster than a motorway run, where in certain cases problems may not show up, reason why I always advise doing stress tests in town
I doubt using a thicker oil on a modern engine will do it any good, best to stick to whats recommended, may not hurt an old unit but not advisable to use thicker oil on new engines as the oil is made for that engine and its materials
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I doubt using a thicker oil on a modern engine will do it any good, best to stick to what's recommended, may not hurt an old unit but not advisable to use thicker oil on new engines as the oil is made for that engine and its materials
I recognise that these days makers stress that their engines demand special oils for various reasons, but is it not the case that this is usually to suit modern ancillaries like EGR valves and turbos, rather than the basic lump made of cylinders, pistons, crankshafts etc ?
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I doubt using a thicker oil on a modern engine will do it any good, best to stick to whats recommended, may not hurt an old unit but not advisable to use thicker oil on new engines as the oil is made for that engine and its materials
Not seen any evidence for this.
Low SAPS oil and/or low ZDP oil might be required for longevity of the pollution control equipment, but that isn't a viscosity effect, and even if it were, a shorter life for the catalyst might be a price worth paying if it keeps your dodgy bearings from self destructing.
Low calcium might be specified to reduce the risk of Low Speed Pre Ignition in particular engines. That isn't a viscosity effect either..
All the evidence (as opposed to unsupported opinion) I've seen suggests that low viscosity oils are specified in modern engines to reduce fuel consumption. A little.
That is an entirely reasonable objective in normal circumstances, but this isn't a normal circumstance.
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as opposed to unsupported opinion
I didn`t say I had supported opinion, it is just my opinion based on years of watching what happens to those that decide they know better than the manufacturers.
everyone has there own opinion and gives advice based on that, mine was to stress test the engine, the OP doesn`t have to do anything they don`t want to, even though I think its a good idea, opinions vary so will leave it at that!
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Thank you all for your replies and advice. I know nothing about cars and since the first garage said your car is essentially toast (I paraphrase) it’s really helped to get a wider range of opinions.
Thought it might be helpful to update …
Just to recap, engine noise is a tap or a knock.
I wanted someone to have a better look who did engine rebuilds etc, and preferably a garage that would be willing to do the work. It wasn’t easy to find, as generally I think these garages don’t work on old boring cars, but I did eventually.
He found a dodgy spark plug and replaced all 4. No improvement. Drained the oil and flushed and got a camera in to the sump - no debris or other evidence of problems.
His thoughts were the noise isn’t a knock more of a tap, it’s not bottom end and doesn’t think its a piston. Based on his judgement I think. Thinks wear and tear. The exhaust is loud on way out maybe. Drive it, it might go for a while and you will notice it get worse.
So I’ve been driving it and done about 700 miles including 3 x 200 milers. The noise hasn’t changed. I’ve been paying more attention to it and it's not audible on the motorway (I trundle along at 60-65). It’s always there at idle and when on the gas but goes away when take my foot off.
One thing I wonder but it’s probably not related I had some work done just before this happened - new front spring, abs sensor and 2 new front tyres - could that be related?
Any way thanks again.
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One thing I wonder but it’s probably not related I had some work done just before this happened - new front spring, abs sensor and 2 new front tyres - could that be related?
Any way thanks again.
Always the first thing. What was done recently?
Are you sure it's engine speed related and not road speed related?
Edited by bathtub tom on 30/04/2022 at 22:53
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Thank you all for your replies and advice. I know nothing about cars and since the first garage said your car is essentially toast (I paraphrase) it’s really helped to get a wider range of opinions.
Thought it might be helpful to update …
Just to recap, engine noise is a tap or a knock.
I wanted someone to have a better look who did engine rebuilds etc, and preferably a garage that would be willing to do the work. It wasn’t easy to find, as generally I think these garages don’t work on old boring cars, but I did eventually.
He found a dodgy spark plug and replaced all 4. No improvement. Drained the oil and flushed and got a camera in to the sump - no debris or other evidence of problems.
His thoughts were the noise isn’t a knock more of a tap, it’s not bottom end and doesn’t think its a piston. Based on his judgement I think. Thinks wear and tear. The exhaust is loud on way out maybe. Drive it, it might go for a while and you will notice it get worse.
So I’ve been driving it and done about 700 miles including 3 x 200 milers. The noise hasn’t changed. I’ve been paying more attention to it and it's not audible on the motorway (I trundle along at 60-65). It’s always there at idle and when on the gas but goes away when take my foot off.
One thing I wonder but it’s probably not related I had some work done just before this happened - new front spring, abs sensor and 2 new front tyres - could that be related?
Any way thanks again.
Re "Drained the oil and flushed and got a camera in to the sump - no debris or other evidence of problems." that, perhaps unfortunately, prevents you getting an elemental oil analysis done, (assuming a sample was not taken) as I suggest above.
Probably more commonly done in the US at the consumer level than in the UK, but for 40 quid or so might have given you clues/some peace of mind.
32.5 quid from these people, who apparently give you large (abnormal wear) particle analysis that the standard method misses.
oilanalysislab.com/buy-oil-analysis-kits/
You could do it before your next oil change if you still have the car and are still concerned about possible bearing wear.
4WIW, due to being distracted by the blazing row that tends to follow whenever I attempt to get GF's to help with car problems (that's MY excuse anyway), and/or/aka simply my stupidity, my car was towed in gear for a few hundred metres with the oil below the pickup pipe. This certainly damaged the bearings, since I could see bearing lead sediment in the sump when I subsequently took it off.
Its still going 7 years later, but I do run relatively thick oil.
Not sure I understand "It’s always there at idle and when on the gas but goes away when take my foot off.". Do you mean it goes away on the overrun?, i.e. when slowing down in gear/under engine braking? If so I can't explain that in any detail, but the load on the engine and transmission is reversed under those circumstances.
IF the noise is generated at idle its hard to see how suspension and tyre work could be involved, since that would only be expected to make noise when moving.
Edited by edlithgow on 01/05/2022 at 04:22
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Thank you all for your replies and advice. I know nothing about cars and since the first garage said your car is essentially toast (I paraphrase) it’s really helped to get a wider range of opinions.
Thought it might be helpful to update …
Just to recap, engine noise is a tap or a knock.
I wanted someone to have a better look who did engine rebuilds etc, and preferably a garage that would be willing to do the work. It wasn’t easy to find, as generally I think these garages don’t work on old boring cars, but I did eventually.
He found a dodgy spark plug and replaced all 4. No improvement. Drained the oil and flushed and got a camera in to the sump - no debris or other evidence of problems.
His thoughts were the noise isn’t a knock more of a tap, it’s not bottom end and doesn’t think its a piston. Based on his judgement I think. Thinks wear and tear. The exhaust is loud on way out maybe. Drive it, it might go for a while and you will notice it get worse.
So I’ve been driving it and done about 700 miles including 3 x 200 milers. The noise hasn’t changed. I’ve been paying more attention to it and it's not audible on the motorway (I trundle along at 60-65). It’s always there at idle and when on the gas but goes away when take my foot off.
One thing I wonder but it’s probably not related I had some work done just before this happened - new front spring, abs sensor and 2 new front tyres - could that be related?
Any way thanks again.
Re "Drained the oil and flushed and got a camera in to the sump - no debris or other evidence of problems." that, perhaps unfortunately, prevents you getting an elemental oil analysis done, (assuming a sample was not taken) as I suggest above.
Probably more commonly done in the US at the consumer level than in the UK, but for 40 quid or so might have given you clues/some peace of mind.
32.5 quid from these people, who apparently give you large (abnormal wear) particle analysis that the standard method misses.
oilanalysislab.com/buy-oil-analysis-kits/
You could do it before your next oil change if you still have the car and are still concerned about possible bearing wear.
4WIW, due to being distracted by the blazing row that tends to follow whenever I attempt to get GF's to help with car problems (that's MY excuse anyway), and/or/aka simply my stupidity, my car was towed in gear for a few hundred metres with the oil below the pickup pipe. This certainly damaged the bearings, since I could see bearing lead sediment in the sump when I subsequently took it off.
Its still going 7 years later, but I do run relatively thick oil.
Not sure I understand "It’s always there at idle and when on the gas but goes away when take my foot off.". Do you mean it goes away on the overrun?, i.e. when slowing down in gear/under engine braking? If so I can't explain that in any detail, but the load on the engine and transmission is reversed under those circumstances.
IF the noise is generated at idle its hard to see how suspension and tyre work could be involved, since that would only be expected to make noise when moving.
Could just be a tappet noise as they can be mistaken for lower engine noise sometimes if the tappet is on first signs of wear, and can disappear at times, or even cam lobe tap which can also vary at first signs of wear, neither need worrying about until they get louder and cause valve trouble or miss fire. need to listen to it really to confirm!
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Thanks for coming back with a progress report. Sounds as though no significant damage. As said, might be just a noisy tappet but if you can't hear anything awry trundling along at 65mph I shouldn't worry. The spring/sensor/tyre work you had done is unlikely to be significant.
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So it's been a while ... the car is still making the noise (there's no wishing it away). Had an MOT in June and by some miracle it passed. The garage who did the MOT (which my dad uses and thinks are good) think it's the timing chain. Apparently that's a common fault on this car? Unfortunately they don't seem interested in fixing it. It's probably done about 4000 miles up and down the motorway at 60/65mph and little or maybe slightly more noticeable when driving. I do think there is a lack of power when accelerating - I wouldn't trust it if needed the power overtaking on a single lane - and sound goes away on the overrun.
Am conscious it could go bang at any time which makes me nervous and I'm trying to find someone to fix it. Had quotes from £500-1500. What do people think, are the symptoms consistent with a timing chain? I can't afford to replace the car so need to fix it. Any advice, oppinions, as always gratefully recieved. Thanks.
Edited by Louise22 on 02/11/2022 at 19:13
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Because the engine was run so low of oil on your initial report, I still reckon there’s more damage than just a rattly timing chain.
I’d still be tempted to just continue using it as you are, as replacing the chain only may be a waste of money. If the engine does eventually fail, the cost of a complete used engine should be less than the upper quote you’ve had for chain replacement.
Fingers crossed!
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This video shows what a stretched timing chain on an i20 sounds like.
youtu.be/MO0AlPe_pco
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I have re-read the thread and think there is an important clue. You mention that the noise goes when you lift off. To me, that means the noise is coming from the fuel system and is most likely a noisy injector. Probably worth replacing to maximise efficiency, but it's unlikely to cause a catastrophe.
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I have re-read the thread......
...and so have I. If it's done 4,000 miles without issue I see no reason why it shouldn't do another 40,000 or more if the current total mileage is around 70,000. Just keep a close eye on oil consumption , i.e how many miles per litre. Worth remembering the old adage - if it works, don't mend it.
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Thanks so much Oli, Adampr and John for replying, without your input I really wouldn't have any idea.
I like Johns optimism and feel inclined to go that way. Unfortunately Oli is right it's more than a rattling chain - I've had another garage take a look and they ran tests, 2 cylinders have lost compression. Have found someone who does rebuilds and he will put a camera in to see what's going on but estimates minimum £1000 to fix.
What does the lost compression mean for the chances of getting more miles out of the car?
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Depends how much they are down on compression. It would be useful to know if the two low cylinders are adjacent to each other as it could be a head gasket gone between the two. The engine noise is more concerning, that indicates something much more serious. In the past when I've had a car with HGF it's been a bit rough when starting from cold and the coolant level needed topping up but otherwise the engine was quiet.
Edited by Xileno on 01/12/2022 at 19:44
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Low compression means a leak. Given the ticking sound you're talking about, it's probably.an issue with the valves and may even just be the tappets.
You can leave it and all that will really happen is that you will make the noise, lose some power and waste some fuel. I very much doubt anything dramatic will happen, but it's obviously best to fix it.
Has the car ever overheated?
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What does the lost compression mean for the chances of getting more miles out of the car?
Sounds as though chances are reduced. I'd be interested to see the actual compression readings for each cylinder. In the absence of the usual signs of a failed CHG (mayonnaise oil, coolant loss), a possible diagnosis might be broken piston rings owing to a transient critical loss of lubrication when the oil level was very low. A camera would not see this - unless part of one had escaped from its housing, forced its way up the side and embedded itself on the top of a piston (as happened to me once in a souped up Anglia many moons ago). A repair would be extremely costly, but if it has already run for several thousand miles without further deterioration, it might continue to do so - somewhat inefficiently - for some time yet. Might be an idea to observe the mpg for a bit with a 'brim to brim' calculation after a few tankfuls, and compare it with the 'real mpg' on this site for that model.
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I took it to the engine guy this morning. He agreed with you. He said he's heard much worse and he would drive it. We had a good chat about the oil loss and compression etc and left it that I would bring it back if I needed to.
There is a slight drop in mgp, but it is still 60 on the motorway, and a loss of power that's only really a noticeable when needing fast excelleration such as overtaking in a hurry.
I didn't get the compression readings. There's no mayonnaise oil (had to look that up) but it is loosing oil. I've been keeping it topped up since March when this started and it's had just under 5 litres in that time. I'll check the coolant.
So I was feeling much better about it ... But sods law ... driving back from the garage the check engine light came on. At least I know it's not the oil.
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So I was feeling much better about it ... But sods law ... driving back from the garage the check engine light came on. At least I know it's not the oil.
Are you sure? Have you dipped the oil?
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I've been keeping it topped up since March when this started and it's had just under 5 litres in that time.
5 litres is a lot of oil. It's going somewhere, either down the exhaust (burnt) in which case the emissions may not be too good; or leaking out from somewhere while the engine is running. That will drip off the undercarriage somewhere but may not cause a puddle on your drive. You need to find some evidence.
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I've been keeping it topped up since March when this started and it's had just under 5 litres in that time.
5 litres is a lot of oil.
Around 1000 miles per litre is just about tolerable - and would fit with the diagnosis of unduly worn or broken piston ring(s). I'd keep driving it and monitor the oil consumption accurately. I still think the engine is highly unlikely to suddenly seize without warning and leave you stranded....as long as it has sufficient oil and water. It's only adding about half a p per mile to the fuel cost.
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There is a "classic" trick to use along with a compression test which can tell you whether your low compression is likely to be due to
(a) Cylinder bore/piston ring wear.
(b) Valve wear/clearance/timing.
You put a teaspoonfull of oil down your spark plug holes and compare the compressions with and without it.
IF the oil restores the compression, its an in-cylinder problem, otherwise its likely a valve problem. Valve problems are generally cheaper to fix.
It COULD be as (relatively) simple as valve clearances. These are not simply manually adjustable on most recentish cars, but might require different shims, or might be automatically adjusted hydraulically. The last type can get clogged with debris.
I had a quick look for valve adjustment method for the i20 on the Internyet but didn't find anything useful.
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