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All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - Sulphur Man

And not before time - www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60126014

Manufacturers will now be reluctant to foist their marketing-led beta software on human guinea pigs.

Either the car is autonomous, and the manufacturer takes responsibility for the systems, or it isnt, and cant be described as such. It's right to call out the Level 1,2,3 thing as incomprehensible and inapplicable to everyday driving.

Hopefully the wrong-headed autonomous marketing will now recede to nothing. It was basically dreamt up to sell very large, very heavy cars with metre-long blind spots as 'more safe' for their precious occupants.

Edited by Sulphur Man on 26/01/2022 at 08:28

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - Manatee

I'm not sure that solves the problem in any way.

As long as a manufacturer doesn't say the car is autonomous, and the driver has to monitor it (there would presumably have to be the equivalent of a dead man's handle, some sort of attention monitoring) then the manufacturer is off the hook.

My concern is that the supervising attendant approach clearly isn't going to work. At what point does the attendant decide to intervene? In most cases by the time he/she realises that the system is going to mess up it's probably going to be too late.

Autonomy is a great project for the software developers but it's hard to see it happening quickly and even then it will require much more road standardisation.

Edited by Manatee on 26/01/2022 at 10:50

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - Sulphur Man

Agreed. All of which costs money for manufacturers. Money in short supply whilst trying to transition to EV production.

The UX of the driver sitting at the wheel, waiting to step in if danger looks imminent, is utterly terrible anyway.

Goodbye and good riddance, autonomous.

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - Andrew-T

It was basically dreamt up to sell very large, very heavy cars with metre-long blind spots as 'more safe' for their precious occupants.

I think it was dreamt up by computer geeks who thought it could be a kind of super Scalextric with possible selling points for road safety. A vanity project if you like. Nearly all the other possible functions in a car had been computerised - can't stop there ....

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - Terry W

I expect autonomous cars to be commonplace in 15-20 years. When the first is introduced and the speed of uptake is speculation - but at a guess a launch in 2-5 years.

Most folk, including me , would not buy one unless it was:

  • wholly autonomous requiring no "driver" input (possibly save for a big red stop now button for perceived emergencies)
  • a legal framework in which the manufacturer is wholly responsible for any accident caused by equipment malfunction (subject to proper maintenance etc)

They will ultimately improve upon frail homo sapiens. Dismiss them as a geek vanity project if you want - those first working on smart phones were assumed to have watched too much Star Trek. The only thing that now separates Star Trek from reality is "beam me up Scotty".

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - Bolt

It was basically dreamt up to sell very large, very heavy cars with metre-long blind spots as 'more safe' for their precious occupants.

I think it was dreamt up by computer geeks who thought it could be a kind of super Scalextric with possible selling points for road safety. A vanity project if you like. Nearly all the other possible functions in a car had been computerised - can't stop there ....

I have doubts the R&D will stop as a company that makes Hydrogen hgvs is going to trial them this year in Canada because of lack of drivers and apart from refuelling they can drive themselves for longer than a driver is allowed to

whether it works is another matter but they are trying...

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - movilogo

Manufacturers will add autonomous driving aids and will charge a premium for that. At the same time they would market these are driver assist features and hence driver is responsible for everything.

Win-win for them. Higher profit and no responsibility.

Edited by movilogo on 26/01/2022 at 18:40

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - sammy1

I have read "" drivers taking over in an emergency"" emergency is not defined or given the range of possible emergencies is just not definable. How can the driver of an automated car react in an emergency if the are reading a book, working on a laptop or fast asleep!

How can an autonomous car avoid a sudden emergency such as a car driving out in front of it. Does it ram on the anchors and still collide or has it the intelligence to swerve to avoid it assuming there is nothing else to collide with say another vehicle cyclist or pedestrian. Can it really think ahead and be smart enough to take on all the possible scenarios? Can it really be better than a human? I wonder and need convincing. Didn't an automatic vacuum cleaner escape its programme in an hotel and disappear out of the door!!

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - Terry W

The big red emergency button simply tells the autonomous vehicle to stop ASAP safely. A sop to an anxious driver. Like an ejection seat in a fighter aircraft - the pilot activates it when they think they are going to crash. Most pilots never use it.

There are differences between the way an autonomous vehicle and a human think. Human drivers believe they can anticipate the actions of other road users from a range of minor cues - eg: using a phone, chatting to a passenger, not looking, road position etc.

In time autonomous may be able to replicate this. But they are far better at observation of actual hazards, and react far more quickly. They don't get distracted, answer the phone, set the satnav, get tired, forget to look etc etc

It's a balance - but autonomous vehicles will almost certainly improve, human driving skills have probably plateaued.

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - Zippy123

I think autonomous systems will come.

If the manufacturers are to be responsible for accidents then the ownership model will change because they will need a reward for the risk they take and that will change with the use profile of the vehicle. I suspect some rental / pay per mile scheme will be implemented.

I also think that once a very high percentage of vehicles are autonomous then they will be equipped to "talk to each other". Say a car needs to pull out of a side road on to a main road at rush hour.

Nowadays that can be dangerous.

Imagine that car, using a internet connection can poll all cars heading towards that junction and request that they create a gap to pull out in to - much safer. Of course a very high proportion of vehicles being autonomous would be required.

The same network could be used to split routes. If all the destinations are polled by the system along with current locations of vehicles, an overseeing traffic management system could route different vehicles via different routes to balance and even minimise road congestion.

Local councils would need to use standard signage for roadworks and even log the exact location on a central database to be accessed by cars.

Just as an aside, the modern safety systems saved me from a major crash. I was on a roundabout and a very fast Golf pulled on to the roundabout in front of me and whilst I reacted to break, the system took over and stopped the car before my foot could put enough pressure on the brake pedal.

As for AI, I'm not a computer bod, but a very good mate of mine is an electronics engineer and has shown me an AI product his firm is working on in the medical diagnosis field. The software / camera / laser system can scan cells and diagnose 24/7/365. It's in a field that there isn't a lot of human expertise and whilst not 100% accurate yet, it is already as accurate as the human experts are and doesn't take breaks. It requires huge amounts of computing power at the moment though.

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - Bolt

It requires huge amounts of computing power at the moment though.

Ai is in most Mobile phones now, helping to take better photos/videos. and assisting modern Tvs give better picture quality, so Ai is getting everywhere as SOCs are getting it built in as are processors as its part of the design now and has been for a while

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - ExA35Owner

The majority of road collisions are caused by driver error. If autinomous systems are better at avoiding collisions than humans, then I'd expect them to take over in good time.

There is, as suggested by others in this thread, research going on into vehicles talking to one another and therefore being able to change routes or to alter their behaviour on approach to junctions, allowing better traffic flow. Human drivers can't do this - or at least can't do this and drive at the same time.

It's reasonably clear that motorway driving, or the equivalent on dual carriageways, requires relatively simple decision making: keeping in lane, keeping distance, moving to overtake only when there's a gap, moving back in likewise. Given the right sensors, this could be managed. Indeed 'smart motorways' could become even smarter when cars can communicate with each other - the stranded vehicle would announce its presence and otehr cars would know about it and respond appropriately long before the human passengers were aware of the issue.

However busy streets, single track roads, unhelpful cattle and sheep on the road, things like that, must be harder to program as so many of them are unpredictable in their occurrence and their behaviour. That's why motorways have much better KSI records per passenger km than other roads.

The real benefits would only come when all cars are autonomous.

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - Bolt

The real benefits would only come when all cars are autonomous.

If all companies follow Tesla then it will happen as Tesla just announced no new models this year and more R&D into Autonomous cars, mind you they now have there own designed processor with autonomy built in its just a case of the software to improve it which will take time to write... and possibly 6G may be with us by then?

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - sammy1

All well and good developing these systems as humans move forward. But there is a danger of putting all the eggs in one basket with some tech. The recent undersea volcano near Tonga severed the Internet connection and very recently there has been concern about the danger of foreign powers cutting undersea connection to these islands. I trust governments have contingencies for what could happen probably discussed over cheese and wine in a working party

All - Autonomous systems - drivers not accountable - Bolt

All well and good developing these systems as humans move forward. But there is a danger of putting all the eggs in one basket with some tech. The recent undersea volcano near Tonga severed the Internet connection and very recently there has been concern about the danger of foreign powers cutting undersea connection to these islands. I trust governments have contingencies for what could happen probably discussed over cheese and wine in a working party

Highly possible these systems with be in orbit as Elon Musks system is, and hopefully be cheaper and faster than landline eventually, but it remains to be seen what happens