Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? | Legal matters | Back Room Forum

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 00:01

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

Hello.

I bought an Audi last week and checked all and V5 (with DVL watermark). Taxed the vehicle on the spot before even buying it to make sure its genuine.

Paid 80% fund over bank transfer, did HPi check, vin sticker mathced with V5. As all looked satisfying. Gone ahead and bought the car. Around 20% less then market price. So thought a good deal

Now I see there is a 2nd VIN no shows up on the Audi MMI console. So i feel like the car is perhaps not what it looks like and can be clone.

Called polic even and reported the concern. But they said all ok. And If I am worried then to take to Audi and get it checked.

I called the seller and he is received my call. But did not yet tell him abput the VIN no. Just incase if he is the culprit and get tipped off. He said he is a small trader and saw anpther listing from same account 2 days ago.

Now whay shall I do?

.do I tell him to refund the car. Then he could be tipped off if I have any chance catcing him.

Or shall I jist wait for the V5 to arrive ( it looks genuine as I could tax it and have DVL mark).

This whole thing giving me lot of stress.

Edited by Rippi on 17/12/2021 at 01:30

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 06:02

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - badbusdriver

Surely the easiest and most obvious thing to do is what the Police suggested, take it to your nearest Audi dealer?

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 08:42

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatch - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

I called Audi but they woud not give a definitive answer. And asked to book at a service center with a cost og 90-150. Said nobappoinment for next few days due to staff shortage.

In short nobody seems to give a damn. Not Police not Audi.

So should I really stress much as V5 seems to be original and I could tax with it and the car is exactly as described like trim line and options in the V5 and HPi?

Edited by Rippi on 17/12/2021 at 08:59

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 09:42

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - SLO76

Did you HPI it before buying?

If you’ve found a car, especially a desirable 2yr old Audi at a small home trader that’s 20% under market value I’d say there’s almost certainly something wrong. He’ll have sourced this at auction or illegally, cars like this don’t generally find their way into hands like his (main dealers will buy or retain all good examples) unless something is wrong with it. It could be a mileage discrepancy, it could be a write-off or it could have some other poorly repaired damage. It could also be a stolen clone.

You’ll need to spend the money on a history check if you’ve not already and I’d get a good local VAG specialist to give it a once over. If there isn’t one then pay the main dealer, though be wary as they may call the police if the car turns out to be stolen and you’d be breaking the law to sell it on knowing so. I’d be surprised if there’s not something amiss. Many younger cars like this are taken on PCP or lease then clocked to keep the monthly payments low. If the service history is missing or the mileage looks wrong then it would explain why it was cheap and why the main dealer didn’t want it.

There are no genuine bargains like this to be had from a dealer I’m afraid. It’ll be cheap for a reason. Don’t buy on price alone, buy on condition and history. You’re better with a genuine approved used 2016/17 example than a dodgy 2019.

Edited by SLO76 on 17/12/2021 at 09:47

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 10:10

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Brit_in_Germany

There will be a VIN stamped into the bodywork somewhere. Not as easy to fake as the sticker but possible with a bit of work.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 10:41

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

Thanks for your input.

Yes, Gold HPi was done from Totalcarcheck. Did not flag anything like clone or stolen. Even V5 data was accurate on when it was last sold, VIN, Reg, derails etc

Speaking of which, I do see mileage discrepencies. Initially I was very confused with the milege counter as 2 locations showed the same. After some google search I found out its 4k less then it suppose to be.

I am usyally a very careful guy and bought at least 8 cars in fast. But this time I feel like I let myself down and got greed own over common sense.

I even sent 80% of the money via bank transfer. Do U think I have a chance recovering the money if the car is dodgy and as police can easily trace the bank tranafer?

Edited by Rippi on 17/12/2021 at 10:42

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 10:59

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - SLO76

Depends on how it was sold. Did he sell it as a private sale from his house? Did he retail it as trader and do you have an order form or receipt? Did you sign anything relating to the mileage being correct or incorrect? Do you have a copy of the original advert and is the mileage referred to there? If he’s a trader selling cars from home as a private seller then he’s breaking the law and you do have legal protections depending on whether he has told you the mileage is correct or incorrect but you’ll need proof that he’s a trader.

You could message him and politely inform him of the evidence you have and that you’d rather have your money back than take legal action or inform the police. He may decide it’s easier just to refund you but with an extra owner on the V5 he might want to take money for that and offer a reduced refund but all you can do is ask and see where you go.

Edited by SLO76 on 17/12/2021 at 11:03

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 11:25

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

Thank you SLO76. Appreciate your opinion.

He said he is a independent trader. Bought it from his home address. Also have a receipt in a form of invoice with car reg and, amount, and signatures. The post was on FB marketplace. I have the snippet of the advert, all the messages. Also have a voice call recorded where I complained to him about milege and he mentioned the milege and accepting that he sold me the car.

Ofcourse, the issue is, if he is the scammer. He may soon be in the wild. So far he has not.

I will call him today, to see his version. Will keep poated.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 11:36

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - movilogo

What is MMI console? Is that digital VIN? May be it is wrong.

The VIN will be etched in the chassis. If that matches with V5 then car should not be cloned.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 11:45

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - pd

I'd concentrate on checking the VIN on the chassis plate, there should also be a visible one on the windscreen and being a VAG car probably a sticker in the spare wheel well with the VIN and all the options.

I can't remember on a 2019 whether it has a digital service book but if an original paper one it may well also have a sticker on the inside cover similar to that in the boot.

If they all match I'd probably be more relaxed about the MMI. It may have had a replacement at some point and been mis programmed.

You could also get hold of a copy of VCDS. I think even with a cheap OBD cable the free version will read the chassis number off all the modules.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 11:49

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Bromptonaut

If the VIN in the windscreen aperture and etched into the body at one or more points match and show no evidence of tampering then I think you could be re-assured.

Like Movilogo I'm scratching my head over the meaning of MMI console though Googling suggests an app of some sort.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 12:59

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - elekie&a/c doctor

MMI is the multi media interface . Similar to the BMW I- drive system . Loads of car info can be displayed on the central screen along with infotainment system .

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 13:23

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

As elekie&a/c doctor said MMI( Multi Media Imterface) is the digital infotainment system. Where there is an option for car information and showa VIN.

So I looked as per as I can go. And there is 2 VIN on the windscreen and driverside piller. Both match with V5. None I can find anywhere else, like bonnet or suspension area. All clean.

I have just also called DVLA and they aasured V5 I have is the last issued and original as per their record. Very weired indeed.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 13:27

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - pd

Somewhere there should be a sticker with the VIN and paint code etc on plus all the option codes. Usually stuck somewhere under boot carpet or in spare wheel well.

It'll probably be white and have the VIN across the top with a whole bunch of 3 letter and number codes below.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 13:24

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - sammy1

Could be an unrecorded damaged repair. Look for other clues paint date stamps on plastic such as headlights etc, Must be a reason why under retail value

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 13:54

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

I think I will buy a OBD scanner and see. If it is a clone they done a good job plus they seem to be confident it will be hard to detect. Otherwise, I thought they always ship this stolen vehicle to another country or sell as spare parts.

Even then Audi said engraved is the only VIN that can not be alterred. Others loke even the ecu can be reprogrammed.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 14:01

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rumfitt

The MMI will be the infotainment screen controlled by the centre console knob and buttons. They often tell you detailed information on the car with certain menu settings.

Perhaps it's had a replacement module/component at some point, from another vehicle?

There are various VIN decoders around the web, what information does inputting the two different VINs give you? They might hint at a later build date or even different donor vehicle.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 14:23

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - pd

A VAG dealer will be able to tell you what every detail of the car should be from the VIN...colour, options, wheels, etc.

That'll give you a pretty good idea of whether you are looking at the right car or not.

www.outvin.com will do the same thing for about £5.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 14:25

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

@Rumfitt Vin decoder givea 2 different age vehicle.

Widnscreen VIN: Audi Q3 S Line. Model: 2019

MMI VIN: Audi Q3 2021 S Line Model: 2021

Otherwise, all other aspects are same like, wheel, tyre size, optional extras ie. Panorpmic sunroof, leather seat etc.

Oh boy. Seems very odd.

Plus the fact that V5 is original. Even more tricky.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 16:23

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - thunderbird

Widnscreen VIN: Audi Q3 S Line. Model: 2019

MMI VIN: Audi Q3 2021 S Line Model: 2021

That suggests to me that the MMI (radio in 1970's terminology) has been changed for a newer one that has not been correctly coded to the car.

Unless of course the windscreen VIN and number plates have been swapped from an older damaged car.

Pretty sure that all these pre-purchase checks carried out can be worthless if the info given to the company doing the checks is all OK even if the car isn't. If the VIN and reg number were off the same car a cloned car would come back as OK.

Some years ago I traded in a car and after a few weeks it appeared locally a short distance from where the wife worked, she saw it most days. About a year later one Saturday evening I got a visit for CID asking about the car. Told then I PX'd it against a new car and it now lived a couple of miles away. Apparently not, that car was a stolen one with a copy of the VIN and reg number off mine. If the buyer of the stolen car had done a HPI using the stolen VIN and reg it would have come back totally clean.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 16:40

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - badbusdriver

In short nobody seems to give a damn. Not Police not Audi.

This is little unfair.

As far as the Police are concerned, no crime has been committed (you have done the HPI check after all). Given how stretched the Police currently are, surely you don't expect them to jump up and drop everything else to investigate your potentially dodgy buy?.

As for Audi, they have no obligation to you or your car as you didn't buy it from a dealer. Given that and the staff shortages, I think they are being more than generous fitting you in within a few days. Book the appointment, if the situation changes between now and then, you can cancel it.

Bottom line, "If something seems too good to be true, it usually is".

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 17:12

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - sammy1

Your car should be in warranty with Audi. Has it got a service history that you can access in the MMI. If not ring Audi and ask for it. If you cannot get sense from your local dealer try further afield They should be able to tell you if Audi fitted the part An MMI won't be cheap! These cars tell you when they servicing and would need servicing in the Audi network to maintain warranty but you must know this spending big money

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 21:17

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Manatee

Does it still have manufacturer warranty? Maybe you can get the Audi dealer to look at it on that basis.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 21:59

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - alan1302

I will call him today, to see his version. Will keep poated.

What did they say?

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 17:18

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Metropolis.

I agree with thunderbird, most likely just a ‘new’ MMI not correctly coded to the car.

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Fri 17 Dec 2021 22:21

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - RT

If a 2019 model has had its MMI changed, it's likely to have been done by an Audi dealer under warranty - and would have been a new unit properly coded - so something isn't right.

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Sat 18 Dec 2021 22:20

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

So got an OBD scanner and it had the VIN reading capability.

Be hold, ITS A CLONE CAR, I see a same VIN with OBD as shown on MMI. and I am out of pocket over 20K. Paid 15K in Bank Transfer, Rest Cash. Plan to make Action Fraud aware of the case.

I actually saw another advert from the same guy and went to see him today(I know it could ve dangerous). He sent his wife to deal with the car. This time it was a BMW and under market value. Plus V5 again original. I also saw a 2 other guys little further away, perhaps waiting for the lady to make the sale.

1 thinng I dont undetstand is how they are making this real V5 that match with car details plus, u can even tax the vehicle and it has 'DVL' watermark.

I hear there is a new code called Authorised Push Payment(APP) where I can apparantly claim the fund from both bank under the unknowingly being victim of Fraud. Any one have any idea about that?

I guess I dnt any chnace from Insurance?

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Sat 18 Dec 2021 23:00

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Andrew-T

I guess I dont have any chance from Insurance?

Only if the terms of your policy cover these strange circumstances ?

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Sat 18 Dec 2021 23:25

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - sammy1

Are you sure the police are not interested in this if as you say they have a BMW lined up. Do the people who "sold" you the car have any assets beside your cash ie the house of crime. You need some expert advice

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Sun 19 Dec 2021 00:14

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - alan1302

Are you sure the police are not interested in this if as you say they have a BMW lined up. Do the people who "sold" you the car have any assets beside your cash ie the house of crime. You need some expert advice

The story is all sounding a little off - if they visited today then why did they not discuss the car they bought previously? He's saying he has lost £20,000 and just goes round and looks at another car....very odd.

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Sun 19 Dec 2021 03:22

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

Gone to see another car as a new buyer. Wanted to check if they are still doing from the same place. And as I said I kept an eye on the profile and saw a car was sold 2 days ago. Now new one. Also I did not want to confront as they may have backup and it may no be safe. Plus I did not want to tip off, just verify they are indeed crook. Also to see if same people selling it and took some video recording during viewing.

I have now reported the case to Action Fraud. Hoping they will pay attention.

Do u guys think I should try to arrange another meet up and call local police staion along the way?

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Sun 19 Dec 2021 08:44

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - SLO76

The police will now be very interested in this case. Contact them immediately and if they try to palm you off go further up the tree. If this second car is another stolen car which has been cloned then he’s not just an “innocent” trader who’s been caught out, he’s blatantly selling stolen cars. If the police refuse then contact your MP to push them to act and do their job.

As to whether you’ll get your money back, well I don’t know, but I doubt it. These guys tend to have their assets hidden in someone else’s name but you could speak to your bank and see if there are any options. Firstly though, that car has to be handed over to the police. You can’t keep it or drive around in a car you know is stolen and cloned. For now you’ve lost your money to a thief. Did you go into the house or was the deal carried out solely on the driveway or street outside? I’ve seen fly traders try to use other peoples driveways or parking spaces to sell cars. If they don’t enter the house don’t buy.

Let this be a lesson to others who may be reading however. Don’t buy high value cars from a small home trader like this. Only buy from genuine dealers with premises or from genuine private sellers where the V5 matches the selling address and they’ve owned it several years. If the car is suspiciously cheap there will be a reason for this. In this case you have to ask why someone would sell a car like this for 20% below value when they could easily get more with WBAC or similar assuming the car is right.

Edited by SLO76 on 19/12/2021 at 08:47

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Sun 19 Dec 2021 09:19

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Simon

Have you actually checked the STAMPED Vin Number that is embossed on the offside suspension top area? This is the hardest thing to alter, whereas the stickers and the electronics can be easily manipulated.

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Sun 19 Dec 2021 09:55

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Maxime.

Is this a windup?

It seems to me that if it appears to be iffy a visit physically to an Audi dealership will get the truth of the matter. Does the OP have the car still?

Was it bought off gumtree or ebay or what.

Too much piffle for little old me.

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Sun 19 Dec 2021 09:59

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - _

Moved to legal, Perhaps advice from our resident legal eagles?

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Sun 19 Dec 2021 12:37

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - pd

This still sounds odd that the VIN on the car and everything else precisely matches the spec of the actual car according to Audi.

So which is the "cloned" VIN? We are saying it is actually a stolen 2021 car which has had a 2019 VIN applied to it but the spec of the 2021 happens by magic chance to be identical to a 2019 car?

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Sun 19 Dec 2021 17:21

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

@pd exactly that. U am literally shocked,and cant believe my eyes. Literaalt even optional extras exactly match i.e. sunrpof, ambient lighting.

I think 2019(VIN outside) is what I bought and 2021(VIN ECU/MMI) is what I am actually driving. There is no other VIN I can find.

But I am not really sure if the 2021 model is stolen really. I am relying on Police to tell me that. Which they did not tell me even after giving both VIN's and only reg I have.

For guys who are asking why I did not go to Audi is because, I dont want to spend a single penny on it for obvious reason. Plus I already used a obd scanner to verify the VIN, for which Audi is asking £100. And I have reported this to Police and Action Fraud.

Also yesterdays visit was to gather some more evidence and footage.

Edited by Rippi on 19/12/2021 at 17:24

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Mon 20 Dec 2021 15:24

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - pd

If you pull the cover off the engine VAG engines usually have the manufacture date on a white sticker somewhere.

Did you find the option code white sticker under the boot floor?

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Mon 20 Dec 2021 16:23

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

@pd nothing under boot. I will check the engine cover today.

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Mon 20 Dec 2021 16:31

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - thunderbird

Did you find the option code white sticker under the boot floor?

The option code sticker for our Fabia (also a VAG product) is stuck inside the Owners Manual.

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Mon 20 Dec 2021 19:31

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - RT

Did you find the option code white sticker under the boot floor?

The option code sticker for our Fabia (also a VAG product) is stuck inside the Owners Manual.

On my VW, the option sticker is inside the Service Schedule Booklet - with another option sticker in the spare wheel well - any VW dealer can print out the "build sheets" from the VIN number.

Edited by RT on 20/12/2021 at 19:32

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Mon 20 Dec 2021 20:40

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

@pd yes there is a sticker that has date 19/10/2020. So it is indeed a newer made engine. Now its highly unlikely engine wont be replaced on a 2019 model.

I contactted Bank. They said they cant do much.

Contacted Action Fraud, they said it will take 28 days for NFIB to assess the case. Means by this time these guys will be in the wind. Contacted local MP and she has auto email set and away till 4th January. Looks like its very slow process and I am at mercy of the authories. Thats how thess guys making multiple sale, while not even chnaging a phone no as they know system is very slow to catch up with them!

Can anyone suggest how can I get police involved and confront these guys asap? And then there is chance I could recover some money?

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Mon 20 Dec 2021 20:46

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

@pd yes there is a sticker that has date 19/10/2020. So it is indeed a newer made engine. Now its highly unlikely engine wont be replaced on a 2019 model.

I contactted Bank. They said they cant do much.

Can anyone suggest how can I get police involved and confront these guys asap? And then there is chance I could recover some money?

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Mon 20 Dec 2021 20:54

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Brit_in_Germany

You need to consider how far you want to take this. If it is investigated further, there is a chance you will lose both the car (if it belongs to someone else, e.g. an insurance company) and your money. If you do nothing, how likely is it that the car's history will be identified? At the moment, at least you have a car to drive.

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Mon 20 Dec 2021 21:51

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

@Brit_in_Germany I agree. Issue is that I feel like I will have issues somewhere down the line if I just leave it there and keep driving. Then there always that insecurity in my mind.

Plus as I did not receive the V5C yet. Not sure if something will lead from there too.

For now I am not calling the guy, to make sure I am not tipping them in case Police finally want to do something.

Do u reckon if I take the car to local police station and report and get them to investigate right away. I think they may investigate further in case the car cloned car is a stolen one!

Edited by Rippi on 20/12/2021 at 23:16

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Mon 20 Dec 2021 18:47

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Andrew-T

If it's anything like my Peugeot, there will be manufacture dates on many parts such as headlamp units and small removable mouldings like ashtrays. Strikes me as odd that a 2021 car would be passed off as a 2019 model, thereby losing ££K in value ?

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Wed 22 Dec 2021 18:57

Bought an 2019 Audi , but VIN sticker and MMI VIN mismatcg - Is it Cloned???? - Rippi

I contacted Police again today and they now impounded the vehicle. I have been told I have to explore civil case.

Also insurance still have not paid out. But it will be few more days and weeks to get the vehicle identified.

I also reported this as a crime in Luton Police so they can investigate these guys.

Surely I am out of pocket and car. Very much depressed.

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