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Smart motorways - barney100

Seems the powers that be have decided to stop rolling out motorways without hard shoulders. The original decision to remove hard shoulders has made sections of the motorways downright dangerous, it dosen't take much imagination to see the problems for a family broken down, a disabled person, passenger or driver with huge lorries hurtling along a few feet from you and trying to get your occupants out safely and as far away from the traffic as quickly as possible.

Smart motorways - RichT54

Seems the powers that be have decided to stop rolling out motorways without hard shoulders. The original decision to remove hard shoulders has made sections of the motorways downright dangerous, it dosen't take much imagination to see the problems for a family broken down, a disabled person, passenger or driver with huge lorries hurtling along a few feet from you and trying to get your occupants out safely and as far away from the traffic as quickly as possible.

I read that MPs on the Transport select committee have said that the construction of smart motorways should be paused until promised safety improvements have been delivered and there is more evidence to assess the risks. Has the government actually taken a decision on this?

Smart motorways - Bromptonaut

It's a select committee report:

committees.parliament.uk/committee/153/transport-c.../

The government will of course consider it and respond but I doubt they've pulled the workers off from (say) M1 J14>16.

Smart motorways - bathtub tom

This was discussed on local radio this morning and thankfully an RAC spokesman made it very clear that the hard shoulder on a non-smart motorway was still the most dangerous place, due to the number of fatalities that occur there.

Yes folk are getting killed on smart motorways, but I wonder how much of it is due to ignorance. I've seen more cars stationary on live lanes on motorways with hard shoulders than smart motorways.

Until the driving public are sufficiently educated (never going to happen), then there has to be better monitoring of smart motorways. I was surprised to learn that monitoring is often non-existent, as I thought that was a condition of smart motorways.

Smart motorways - Bromptonaut

Until the driving public are sufficiently educated (never going to happen), then there has to be better monitoring of smart motorways. I was surprised to learn that monitoring is often non-existent, as I thought that was a condition of smart motorways.

That is the bit where government (both parties) has been derelict. As soon as these things started to go live there should have been telly ads/public information films and a fully updated Highway Code to explain how they work.

There should have been a focus on exactly what the red cross means; it's like a red traffic light and passing it is an absolute offence. Same with breakdowns or 'fender bender' accidents; get to a refuge.

Smart motorways - Engineer Andy

Until the driving public are sufficiently educated (never going to happen), then there has to be better monitoring of smart motorways. I was surprised to learn that monitoring is often non-existent, as I thought that was a condition of smart motorways.

That is the bit where government (both parties) has been derelict. As soon as these things started to go live there should have been telly ads/public information films and a fully updated Highway Code to explain how they work.

There should have been a focus on exactly what the red cross means; it's like a red traffic light and passing it is an absolute offence. Same with breakdowns or 'fender bender' accidents; get to a refuge.

It isn't just that - I and others think that the system was implemented years, perhaps decades before the technology and backup was anywhere near ready - it was obvious from previous commmitte meetings - as I explained to you in a thread a year or two ago when I watched an entire meeting.

If you are going to change a way of doing something and in a substantive way (as this is), the explanations and training come before implementing it.

One of major flaws in the scheme- one which thus far I cannot ever see being fixed, is how do you teach foreign drivers, especially HGV drivers, who are not based in the UK these new ways? It's not as though the UK authorities know who will be coming in and from where all over Europe, and no way can we afford to train every foreign driver.

We see in reports on so many occasions where foreign drivers (and us the other way around) don't know the rules of the road, so what hope is there when some roads have this, rule, others that, and no training is provided?

How can those civil servants saying the programme should keep going justify their argument? How can you? I'd put good money on you thinking differently if you found yourself with loved ones in your car in a live line in heavy traffic, perhaps bad weather and/or the dark, sitting in a broken down (including flat tyre) car hoping that the Highways system/people do their jobs within seconds AND that everyHGV driver is paying attention.

It would certainly scare the living daylights out of me relying on 100% of all traffic to see me and take avoiding action, assuming the gantry systems worked - which they often don't( or quickly enough)

At least with the hard shoulder, no-one apart from broken down and pulled over vehicles SHOULD be there, plus you can far more easily get to safety out of your vehicle. Being able to make it 800m (or even half that) to a (short) refuge that may already be occupied is not my idea of a safe way of stopping, especially if you're in the middle and outside lane and cannot coast for a long distance.

Smart motorways - Will deBeast

>> Until the driving public are sufficiently educated

I'm convinced that we really need some top-up training for every driver on a regular basis. Not necessarily a test.

We've made huge strides to reducing collisions on roads, but don't address the root cause of many - the drivers.

Smart motorways - Andrew-T

Until the driving public are sufficiently educated (never going to happen),

Educated or not, there will remain the problem of a vehicle simply failing, or even just running out of fuel. Plus an occasional minor bump demanding a stop on the 'verge'. Relying on being able to move up to a mile or more to relative safety is not good enough.

Smart motorways - bathtub tom

there will remain the problem of a vehicle simply failing, or even just running out of fuel. Plus an occasional minor bump demanding a stop on the 'verge'. Relying on being able to move up to a mile or more to relative safety is not good enough.

In my experience, vehicles very rarely fail without some sort of warning and certainly running out of fuel never happens without warning (fuel gauge). In the case of a minor bump, those involved should be able to continue to a refuge.

Smart motorways - Will deBeast

We don't have the same concern/outrage about lack of hard shoulders on dual carriageways, despite them also being 70mph roads.

The motorway I commuted on moves *much* faster as a smart motorway - fewer accidents (lots of speed cameras, so people just stick to the limit).

But I'd love to have confidence that the lane will be closed if I have a problem, and that other drivers will obey the signs.

Smart motorways - Bromptonaut

We don't have the same concern/outrage about lack of hard shoulders on dual carriageways, despite them also being 70mph roads.

There's a longish section of the M90 in Fife that has nor hard shoulder and presumably never had.

All sorts of long distance dual (or single) carriageways with no hard shoulder or refuge including the A38 from the end of the M5 to Plymouth, the A14, A43/A34 and in Scotland the A9.

Smart motorways - Galaxy

The safest place on a motorway in the event of a breakdown is your vehicle on the hard shoulder and you out of the vehicle standing on the grass bank, that is, if there is one. But you certainly shouldn't ever remain in your vehicle, even if it's p***ing down!

Smart motorways - Terry W

The first "smart" motorway in the UK ws on the M42 opened in 2006. I believe it was planned 5 years earlier in 2001.

It is easy to understand why they seemed a good idea - get an extra lane without buying lots more land and widening bridges. It was a quick way to increase m/way capacity with no delay for purchase of lots of different bits of land needed.

If any projects currently scheduled to start work in 2022 and be complete in (say) 2024 are cancelled pending a safer redesign, they may not be completed until around 2030. The delay would be due to redesign, land acquisition, scheduling contractors, getting Treasury to allocate extra funding, public consultation etc.

As currently planned projects exist to reduce already significant congestion and lack of road capacity, delaying projects means a delay in resolving congestion.

Complaining loudly about the stupidity of smart motorways may result in a re-think, but you will also be voting for continuing congestion. Not an easy choice!

Smart motorways - RT

The first "smart" motorway in the UK ws on the M42 opened in 2006. I believe it was planned 5 years earlier in 2001.

It is easy to understand why they seemed a good idea - get an extra lane without buying lots more land and widening bridges. It was a quick way to increase m/way capacity with no delay for purchase of lots of different bits of land needed.

If any projects currently scheduled to start work in 2022 and be complete in (say) 2024 are cancelled pending a safer redesign, they may not be completed until around 2030. The delay would be due to redesign, land acquisition, scheduling contractors, getting Treasury to allocate extra funding, public consultation etc.

As currently planned projects exist to reduce already significant congestion and lack of road capacity, delaying projects means a delay in resolving congestion.

Complaining loudly about the stupidity of smart motorways may result in a re-think, but you will also be voting for continuing congestion. Not an easy choice!

The M42 Active Traffic Management, which started in 2005, was a trial along with a section of the M25 - the trials showed that traffic flow was greatly increased at peak times.

Motorway hard shoulders are dangerous places to be, with a fatality rate higher than on All Lane Running (ALR) motorways.

Smart motorways - Cris_on_the_gas

The Germans have done it.

The hard shoulder is retained but when congestion occurs the speed limit is dropped to 80kph (50mph) and the hard shoulder becomes a live lane.

Good signage , monitoring and speed cameras keep it all safe.

Smart motorways - daveyjp

Which is exactly the same as some UK stretches, M62 and M42 in particular.

Smart motorways - Andrew-T

We don't have the same concern/outrage about lack of hard shoulders on dual carriageways, despite them also being 70mph roads.

There's a longish section of the M90 in Fife that has nor hard shoulder and presumably never had. All sorts of long distance dual (or single) carriageways with no hard shoulder or refuge including the A38 from the end of the M5 to Plymouth, the A14, A43/A34 and in Scotland the A9.

Yes, but that is how A roads always were, having evolved gradually from local tracks between villages and towns. There was often an accessible verge anyway. M'ways were purpose-built for fast vehicle traffic, with a side-lane reserved for breakdowns and (perhaps more important) access for emergency vehicles, as junctions were few and far between. IMHO that consideration may be more important than safety of a stopped car.

Smart motorways - Gibbo_Wirral

The elephant in the room that people don't like to talk about regarding the recent smart motorways deaths is that the people were stood in front of their broken car, in a live lane exchanging insurance details.

They talk about not being able to get to a safety refuge, but there was a metal barrier they could have stood behind.

Not to mention the driver not paying attention who ploughed into them.

Yes, there are still some improvements to make to the monitoring technology, but until we have smart drivers, we'll always have daily crashes, no matter if its a smart motorway or not:

There was a lorry crash on the M6 last week. Police caught dozens of people on the other carriageway filming it on their mobile phones while driving.

I've lost count at the number of people who are sat in their car on the hard shoulder because its cold or raining.

I've seen this topic debated on social media and disabled people saying they don't need to leave their car if it breaks down on a motorway because they're unable to do so.

60% of motorists don't know what to do if they break down on a smart motorway.

Countless people fined for driving in a lane with a red X above it.

There are around 25 deaths a year on hard shoulders and have been 38 on smart motorways in the 15 years since they came about in 2006. Why are there no campaigns about these far more dangerous places?

Edited by Gibbo_Wirral on 03/11/2021 at 12:25

Smart motorways - catsdad

The AA says it takes an average of 17 minutes for signs to be lit following an incident happening. From receiving the report to activating the lights takes nearly two minutes. So there is 15 minutes of “delay” while the incident is picked up. Highways England are aiming to reduce this to 10 minutes.

So the idea of a set of eagle-eyed operators ready to spring into action is not consistent with the facts.

Smart motorways - joegrundy

In my car I carry (ready to hand) a multi-mode magnetic amber strobe light. (Similar to, but more effective than, a blue 'Kojak' light I used when working).

Very effective, gives clear and early warning. I've used it a couple of times when I've come upon BDVs in dangerous locations.

Far more effective than hazard warning lights and in situations where seconds/yards matter, worth the £20 or so, I think.

Smart motorways - Engineer Andy

We don't have the same concern/outrage about lack of hard shoulders on dual carriageways, despite them also being 70mph roads.

There's a longish section of the M90 in Fife that has nor hard shoulder and presumably never had. All sorts of long distance dual (or single) carriageways with no hard shoulder or refuge including the A38 from the end of the M5 to Plymouth, the A14, A43/A34 and in Scotland the A9.

Yes, but that is how A roads always were, having evolved gradually from local tracks between villages and towns. There was often an accessible verge anyway. M'ways were purpose-built for fast vehicle traffic, with a side-lane reserved for breakdowns and (perhaps more important) access for emergency vehicles, as junctions were few and far between. IMHO that consideration may be more important than safety of a stopped car.

A few years ago (I think I documented it here) I and many others were stopped in a huge jam on the A30 because of a nasty accident ahead, and the emergency services and recovery vehicle took 2 hrs to get through the jam, a) because there was no space to get by, and b) because there was no way for them to close the road ahead, open up a temporary section from a slip off and get to the scene the 'wrong way'.

That second issue could be reolved with a bit of brainpower and co-ordination from the Highways people / councils responsible for the eroad in question and the emergency services, but as usual, that would require some decent management and no turf wars on their part, so unlikely.

That's one of the major issues with all-lane running on 'smart' motorways - I've witnessed similar problems when in jams on the M25 when i**** drivers try and use the hard shoulder to get by, which in turn blocks the emergency services, which further holds everyone up.

Smart motorways - sammy1

The M42 is the best example of a working smart motorway. It is relatively short and has a high proportion of gantries displaying what is going on and works the active hard shoulder very well in my opinion and when the hard shoulder is used has places to get to in an emergency. spaced not too far away. Smart motorways are a trade off between safety and capacity. The problem with a lot of the new ones is the distance they now cover and the lack of gantries to inform the driver what is going on. I believe the Daily mail yes them again did a survey and campaign on their safety. Their main findings were the lack of any where to go in an emergency and critically the lack of monitoring cameras, a lot not working and poor information displayed. If the camera operatives cannot see what is going on then draw your own conclusions. In the short term it may be better to open up the hard shoulder again build more gantries, add more cameras and reduce the speed limit when busy

Smart motorways - Andrew-T

Smart motorways are a trade off between safety and capacity.

So are non-smart (conventional) M'ways - or any other road, for that matter. Just a different trade-off.

Smart motorways - Terry W

All roads are a trade off between safety and cost.

Normally money spent on the road network seeks to improve both capacity and safety. Smart motorways are different in that capacity is improved at the expense of safety.

Smart motorways - Andrew-T

Normally money spent on the road network seeks to improve both capacity and safety. .

Leaving aside small-scale road repairs, major road 'improvements' usually (not always) relieve local bottlenecks while creating new ones somewhere else. All motorway traffic ends up on local roads sooner or later, and their capacity usually stays much the same. Or less because of more parked vehicles ....

Smart motorways - meldrew

They had not built smart motorways when I was involved in an incident on the M40. A driver had probably fallen asleep, swerved across me and hit the central reservation. Flying over my bonnet and hittinf the car on my left it ended upside down on a real hard shoulder. My wife had phoned 999 before I had stopped and anothe man complete with paramedic jacket got out of his car too.

First point. if this had been a smart motorway the driver would have probably five seconds before being hit by a HGV with obvious consequences. Second, nobody could have stopped and even the emergency services could have been in danger.

I will make a prediction here. Smart motorways will become APNR toll road to make up for tax lost to electric vehicles not using petrol or diesel!