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Possible ban due to speeding points - Dan Webber
Hi all….I got 3 points last October for speeding which are now applied to my license, but in the last few months I got caught speeding 3 more times on the same camera due to taking a divert to work to avoid traffic. I have admitted to being the driver to them all and have so far received 2 replies offering option 1 = £100 fine and 3 points for each or option 2 = request court hearing……..if I choose option 1 for both then that will will put me on 9 points. But when the 3rd comes through do I then choose Option 2 to request court hearing? As that will send me to 12 points and a ban. But I am relied on for my driving for work and child purposes…..or do I request court hearing on one of the first 2 that I have received before the 3rd one comes through? I’m really panicking and don’t know what to do for the best?

I’ve also heard that if you request a court hearing they can punish you even more heavily?
Possible ban due to speeding points - badbusdriver

But I am relied on for my driving for work and child purposes

I’m really panicking and don’t know what to do for the best?

If only you'd been thinking of this while speeding through your diversion. Absolutely no sympathy from me I'm afraid.

You may be able to argue/reason it down to doing some driver training in a court hearing, but I'm really not an expert in the matter.

Be aware that there is also a 'Legal Matters' section to the forum, might be better to post there?.

[now moved from General forum - mod]

Edited by Xileno on 06/10/2021 at 08:26

Possible ban due to speeding points - ExA35Owner

Recent guidance to courts says that loss of employment is not a reason to avoid a totting-up ban.

Try posting on pepipoo.com where there are a number of experts.

Possible ban due to speeding points - Bromptonaut

You mention being caught three times by the same camera but so far only 2 NIP/S172 notices.

Are you sure that the third one is actually live?

Middleman is the expert on here and may be along later.

Otherwise I'd add to those suggesting pepipoo.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 06/10/2021 at 12:14

Possible ban due to speeding points - Middleman

First of all, have you been offered a Seed Awareness Course for any of these, or have you done one in the last three years? If not, what were the speeds and limits for your recent offences? The answer to those may affect what I have written below.

If there are no complications from the above questions, when you receive the paperwork for the third offence, a fixed penalty should not be among the options. (If it is, you will see it is a "Conditional" offer and one of the conditions is that you do not have more than eight points on your licence, so you will not be able to accept it). You will have the choice of having the matter heard by a "Single Justice" (SJ) sitting alone or opting for a court appearance. It makes no difference because if you do opt for the SJ, he or she will adjourn the matter for a full court hearing which you will be invited to attend. As you know when you reach twelve points the court will disqualify you for a minimum of six months, unless you can prove that "Exceptional Hardship" (EH) will be visited on either you or others. A couple of years ago, because it was thought that some courts were accepting EH arguments too readily, Magistrates were officially reminded that when considering such an argument, the hardship has to be "Exceptional." Losing your job will not normally qualify as exceptional as anybody who needs either to driver to do their work or to get to it would suffer similarly. Hare's the Magistrates' guidance on the matter:

When considering whether there are grounds to reduce or avoid a totting up disqualification the court should have regard to the following:

It is for the offender to prove to the civil standard of proof that such grounds exist. Other than very exceptionally, this will require evidence from the offender, and where such evidence is given, it must be sworn [which means given under oath or affirmation]

Where it is asserted that hardship would be caused, the court must be satisfied that it is not merely inconvenience, or hardship, but exceptional hardship for which the court must have evidence;

Almost every disqualification entails hardship for the person disqualified and their immediate family. This is part of the deterrent objective of the provisions combined with the preventative effect of the order not to drive.

If a motorist continues to offend after becoming aware of the risk to their licence of further penalty points, the court can take this circumstance into account.

Courts should be cautious before accepting assertions of exceptional hardship without evidence that alternatives (including alternative means of transport) for avoiding exceptional hardship are not viable;

Loss of employment will be an inevitable consequence of a driving ban for many people. Evidence that loss of employment would follow from disqualification is not in itself sufficient to demonstrate exceptional hardship; whether or not it does will depend on the circumstances of the offender and the consequences of that loss of employment on the offender and/or others

You need to prepare yourself to present an EH argument. You need to explain the difficulties you or others will face and also explain why no alternatives to you driving are available. If you want to, post on here what you intend to cover and I'll give you my view on it. You have plenty of time. The police have six months from the date of the offence to begin court action and in most areas they take all of that.

As an aside (which may mean a further complication) did you pass a driving test for the first time less than two years ago?

PS - I've just noticed this:

You may be able to argue/reason it down to doing some driver training in a court hearing,

You will not have the option to do this. Courts have no power to order driver training in the place of fines and/or points.

Edited by Middleman on 06/10/2021 at 12:41

Possible ban due to speeding points - Falkirk Bairn

Anyone can be caught speeding - we have all broken a speed limit at some point.

To be caught 3 x by the same camera in a matter of a few months is crass stupidity.

No sympathy - only advice is save up & get new pair of comfortable shoes and a bus / train season ticket

Possible ban due to speeding points - Dan Webber
No point in replying with with a insulting response to something which I have already beaten myself up about. For your information it was 2 cameras over a distance which must measure the average speed but I didn’t know this I’m sure there is no sign saying average speed limit. I went through the first camera at acceptable speed but sped up once I was past it to avoid fines from work for being over 5 minutes late when the only reason I was late was to them ordering me to be responsible for picking someone up everyday who was not reliable at getting out of bed. This caused me huge mental health problems that led to me finding another job. So the guy who couldn’t wake up problem became my problem which was forced upon me. I’m aware I’m the driver and in control so it falls on me but there are other elements to the equation so please do not judge.
Possible ban due to speeding points - Catfood

second to that....

Possible ban due to speeding points - Dan Webber
Thanks for your brilliant and detailed help, (and Thankyou to all who replied) The third one must be live as I’ve replied to all 3 saying that I am the driver but I left a gap of a couple of weeks between replying from the first 2 and then the 3rd just to create some time to think and form a plan.

I have to say I was hoping for a speed awareness course for one of them as 1 of them was 43mph in a 30mph which I’m aware I’m lucky to only be punished with 3 points and £100 fine as it could have easily been more but the the other 2 were 40mph in the same 30mph zone so was expecting one to come back with the offer of speed awareness course. I have done one before but a good 8 years ago. I’m not sure why I’m apparently ineligible for it…maybe as it’s the same camera 3 times in space of 2 months. It’s not a usual camera either I think it’s 2 cameras between a certain distance measuring the speed. I slowed down to pass the first one but didn’t realise the 2 cameras linked up until I received all 3 letters through the post, all of them 6 weeks after the offence’s took place.

So do you recommend using option 1 for both these first 2 and then just deal with the final problem once I get the 3rd response through the post I n next few week? Or should I use Option 2 for the one which is 40mph in a 30mph and at the court hearing request a speed awareness course?

Possible ban due to speeding points - Middleman

43 in a 30 is too fast for a course (they are only offered up to 42mph). You should have been offered one for one of the 40mph offences. You could try phoning the ticket office to ask why you had not been offered one. It has nothing to do with the number of offences. The only criteria are that your speed must be within the bounds (Limit + 10% + 2mph) and that you must not have done one in the last three years (the dates of the offences being used to calculate that period).

If you cannot persuade them to offer a course, you might as well accept the fixed penalties. Do not take either of them to court as it will cost you considerably more. You will almost certainly see court action for the third and that is when you must present your EH argument to avoid a ban. You cannot request a course in court. The court cannot impose or offer a course under any circumstances. Only the police offer courses.

As I said, post your EH argument up here and I’ll tell you what I think of its chances.

For information, average speed cameras work in pairs. The time you take to cover the known distance between them is measured, from which your speed is calculated.

Possible ban due to speeding points - ExA35Owner

Also for your information there is no requirement for speed cameras to be signed, or even to be visible. Most are signed or visible to act as a deterrent.

Possible ban due to speeding points - Bromptonaut
I slowed down to pass the first one but didn’t realise the 2 cameras linked up until I received all 3 letters through the post, all of them 6 weeks after the offence’s took place. So do you recommend using option 1 for both these first 2 and then just deal with the final problem once I get the 3rd response through the post I n next few week? Or should I use Option 2 for the one which is 40mph in a 30mph and at the court hearing request a speed awareness course?

Is the vehicle registered in your name and at your address?

Six weeks would, I think, be too long for the initial notice to the Keeper recorded at Swansea.

However if it came via a leasing company or was a works vehicle for example and they've named you as the driver it won't help.

Possible ban due to speeding points - sammy1

Best bet is to plead extenuating circumstances as mentioned job and child. There are stacks of people driving around with 12 points or more. Some have as many as 40-60! The system is a joke and extremely unfair to some.

Possible ban due to speeding points - Middleman

I've just noticed what Bromptonaut has usefully pointed out. This is important in view of your position regarding a "totting up" ban. If you are the Registered Keeper (that is, if you hold the V5C and your details are correctly shown on it), have you recently acquired the vehicle or have you recently changed address?

Possible ban due to speeding points - Dan Webber
Thanks again so much everyone you have Ben very helpful but luckily for me as I originally expected I have received an offer of speeding awareness course for the 3rd incident which has now come through the post. Strange that they did that for the last 40mph in a 30mph zone and not the first one of the same speeds but hey ho I have been offered it now. So I’ll take that and the 6 points from the other 2 and be more careful going forward. I had a clean license for nearly 10 years before all this. Pressures of work make u do funny things. I have since changed job as all 3 offences were in the work van trying to get to work to avoid being fined for lateness which they do if ur more than 5 minutes late over the whole week. Ridiculous policy and encourages you to speed as living an hour away from the yard in London you can never guarantee a journey time especially crossing dartford bridge, so glad to have a different job now. Thanks to you all again. I will definetly use HonestJohn again if I am worried about anything.
Possible ban due to speeding points - Xileno

Thanks for coming back to update the thread. It's always interesting and potentially useful to others to see closure to a problem.

Possible ban due to speeding points - Brit_in_Germany

Also, the information about it being the work van would explain the delay in receiving the notification.

Possible ban due to speeding points - Andrew-T
Pressures of work make u do funny things. I have since changed job as all 3 offences were in the work van trying to get to work to avoid being fined for lateness which they do if ur more than 5 minutes late over the whole week.

I don't know how far it was between those average-speed cameras, but the ironic thing is to ask just how many seconds you saved by travelling at 40 instead of 35. If it was a mile, about 13 secs. Was it that critical ?