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EVs would make sense as a second car backing up an Ice but the price of them is insane. I’m going to hang on for a good while yet until the infrastructure, range and price of evs improves.
I contemplated on a trip to Oban from Hampshire the other week how I could have done it with three adults, a dog -biggish-& luggage. V70 did it on a tankful of diesel, swallowed all the gear and still had some fuel left after a tortuous time on the M6. Cost 8k 6 years ago and has crept onto the high mileage Volvo register.
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How exactly can it be a green success when every electric car sold adds to the requirement for gas, and so is not particularly green and exacerbates our over reliance on gas.
How DARE you bring logic into the debate?
All our nukes are out of date, LNG powers over 30% of our electricity. Coal helps occasionally.
To be carbon free we would to have to build the equivalent of 12 off 5GW nuclear reactors between now and 2035. (Anyone who says wind and solar can be ignored as not living in the real world). We have one on order and not in build as it is Chinese funded!
To say our political leaders are stupid and pig headed is really very unkind to stupids.
Fortunately other nations can see how inane the UK Government are and will ignore them.
Edited by madf on 29/09/2021 at 11:41
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" LNG powers over 30% of our electricity"
It's more like over 50% when the wind isn't blowing.
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Particularly as the gas fuelled power stations that are on standby to fill in the power deficits as they happen are open circuit gas turbine sets which can be brought on line quickly but are not as efficient as the closed circuit sets, but they take more time to get on line.
OCGT generation - gas turbine driving alternator, gas turbine exhaust up the chimney.
CCGT - gas turbine driving alternator, gas turbine exhaust through heat exchanger makes steam to drive another turbine which drives another alternator, cooler exhaust up the chimney.
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How exactly can it be a green success when every electric car sold adds to the requirement for gas, and so is not particularly green and exacerbates our over reliance on gas.
We're moving towards most of our electricity coming from renewables. That already happens on some days.
Running an electric car consumes roughly the same amount of energy as it takes to refine the oil to fuel a petrol or diesel car, so no overall increase in energy demand although there might be problems with peak periods of demand. They say petrol and diesel fuel yields about three times as much energy as it takes to refine it - but then you waste over two-thirds of that energy as heat the engine. An electric car is something like 90% efficient in running, a bit less so in charging.
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How exactly can it be a green success when every electric car sold adds to the requirement for gas, and so is not particularly green and exacerbates our over reliance on gas.
We're moving towards most of our electricity coming from renewables. That already happens on some days. ##
Running an electric car consumes roughly the same amount of energy as it takes to refine the oil to fuel a petrol or diesel car, so no overall increase in energy demand although there might be problems with peak periods of demand. They say petrol and diesel fuel yields about three times as much energy as it takes to refine it - but then you waste over two-thirds of that energy as heat the engine. An electric car is something like 90% efficient in running, a bit less so in charging.
## It only happens in the summer. Only during the day as solar.
In winter there are days when sun does not shine nor the wind blow. Demand doubles in winter
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Most people can't afford EV
EV buyers are usually well off. Many EVs were bought under Limited Company route due to their tax advantage compared to ICE cars.
If you accept the fact that the vast majority of people do not 'buy' cars, but pay a monthly fee, then actually most people can afford an electric car.
Looking at a random leasing company, to get a Nissan Leaf with the most powerful (217bhp) motor and biggest battery (62kWh) will cost £280 per month with a 9 month deposit and 5k miles per year. Closest Ford Focus to that is the 2.0 EcoBlue 190 ST, which costs £355 per month under the same mileage and deposit constraints.
Cheapest of each on this particular website are special offers, £188 for the Nissan (150bhp, 40kWh battery) and £200 for the Ford (1.0 Ecoboost 125 ST-Line auto).
Want something smaller?. On this website, cheapest Renault Zoe is £185 per month, cheapest Fiesta is £205.
Edited by badbusdriver on 01/10/2021 at 08:56
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<< If you accept the fact that the vast majority of people do not 'buy' cars, but pay a monthly fee, then actually most people can afford an electric car. >>
You make it sound like a new phenomenon, BBD. Think back to the time when many people afforded expensive items by buying on H-P, or 'the never-never'. You either rent, paying monthly, or pay off a loan in monthly instalments. The methods may change, but they all have a monthly outgoing somewhere.
I personally have never done that for any car, having always bought used, occasionally nearly-new, sometimes quite old or privately. I don't like an avoidable steady drain on resources. :-)
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<< If you accept the fact that the vast majority of people do not 'buy' cars, but pay a monthly fee, then actually most people can afford an electric car. >>
You make it sound like a new phenomenon, BBD. Think back to the time when many people afforded expensive items by buying on H-P, or 'the never-never'. You either rent, paying monthly, or pay off a loan in monthly instalments. The methods may change, but they all have a monthly outgoing somewhere.
I personally have never done that for any car, having always bought used, occasionally nearly-new, sometimes quite old or privately. I don't like an avoidable steady drain on resources. :-)
Doesn't really matter if it is a new or old phenomenon, the point is that many forum members only seem to consider the list price when discussing the affordability of a new car, specifically in this case, electric ones.
Even ignoring electric cars, in the 12 years I have been cleaning windows, I have noticed a marked difference in the age and 'prestige' of the cars parked at customers houses, particularly houses who's values wouldn't be that high, or are in a less desirable area. 12 years ago I would see an Astra, Focus or Golf, maybe 5-7 years old outside a house like this, whereas now it will be an Audi Q3, VW Tiguan, BMW X3, Mercedes GLA, up to two years old. So while I accept paying a monthly fee for a car may not be a new idea, it is far easier and far more common now than it ever was.
Whether or not forum members agree that this is a sensible way to drive a new car is neither here nor there, it's just the way things are. Bottom line is paying a monthly fee for an EV isn't going to cost much, if any, more than an ICE car, and as I showed in my earlier post, could actually be cheaper. Which very much knocks on the head the notion that "most people can't afford an electric car".
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The additional saving in fuel with an EV is £100-200 per month depending on mileage driven, although this would be offset by the cost of charging.
However most people are either innumerate or prefer "man maths" when it comes to buying cars. £300 per month sounds a lot less than £3600 pa. List price is easy to focus on, Fuel cost savings of £3000-6000 over a 3 year PCP are more easily ignored.
The attraction is a new motor. Signing up to £2-300pm is much easier than putting down £20-25k. Alternative skinflint strategy (which I tend to adopt) - buy at a ~1 year old, keep for (say) 8 years, depreciation ~£1500pa. PCP deal at £250pm costs £3000pa.
Marketing and the self delusion promoted is wonderful.
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it is far easier and far more common now
Yes, that's how consumerism is promoted. We perceive success as showing off expensive possessions (even if not owned).
Humans seek validation from others. Having expensive products give that validation.
Paying off mortgage well before retirement is also an achievement. But how do display it to others? Wearing a T-shirt saying so?
Society shapes citizens' behavior.
paying a monthly fee for an EV isn't going to cost much, if any, more than an ICE car,
Correct - but taking a long term view, that is not necessarily the best action. If you hand the car back at end of PCP tenure then you just rented a car rather than owning it. If you decide to buy it then you bought a car at full market price (because you bought new so you borne the depreciation) which has very low resale value because battery technology has moved very far. Would you buy a 5 year old mobile phone now unless almost free?
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but taking a long term view, that is not necessarily the best action. If you hand the car back at end of PCP tenure then you just rented a car rather than owning it. If you decide to buy it then you bought a car at full market price (because you bought new so you borne the depreciation) which has very low resale value because battery technology has moved very far. Would you buy a 5 year old mobile phone now unless almost free?
Well quite: When launched in 2013,the BMW I3 had an electric range of 60 miles. The latest version (prior to runout) has 220miles. Nearly 4 times the original in 8 years. Or 25% pa.
I may be elderly and losing my marbles. but buying something which becomes technically obsolescent in two years makes no sense. I'll wait till I can have a fully autonomous model so it can drive me to Edinburgh and back on one charge without any input from me except a postcode:-)
By then I will be gaga. Or dead.
Edited by madf on 01/10/2021 at 11:35
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<< Humans seek validation from others. Having expensive products give that validation. >>
That is where I am one of the odd ones out, as shown by my car-buying habits described above. I put function before form, and form (elegance if you prefer) before ostentation. Making silent shows of affluence has never interested me personally.
But no doubt your generalisation applies to many people.
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Those genuinely wealthy, successful or powerful typically have no need of visible ostentation to demonstrate to others their sense of self.worth. They drive 12 year old Volvos, wear threadbare Barbour jackets when out in the countryside, and have a house full of well worn quality furniture and carpets.
Visible affluence is an afflication in those often insecure individuals who need the reassurance of owenership and glitz.
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Poor Is Flashy. Rich Is Loud. Wealth Is Quiet. :)
stevengambardella.medium.com/why-poor-people-drive...5
Edited by movilogo on 01/10/2021 at 17:04
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Poor Is Flashy. Rich Is Loud. Wealth Is Quiet. :)
stevengambardella.medium.com/why-poor-people-drive...5
The author of that article does not realise that expensive cars in poor areas often belong to drug dealers to the middle classes. :-)
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Those genuinely wealthy, successful or powerful typically have no need of visible ostentation to demonstrate to others their sense of self.worth. They drive 12 year old Volvos, wear threadbare Barbour jackets when out in the countryside, and have a house full of well worn quality furniture and carpets.
Visible affluence is an afflication in those often insecure individuals who need the reassurance of owenership and glitz.
While their discreet grade 2 listed wooden barn (fully temperature controlled, of course) contains a couple of Ferrari 250 GTOs, a Lamborghini Muira and a Jaguar C-Type!
Edited by Sofa Spud on 03/10/2021 at 16:05
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This has been good for me to read, I 'm probably in the skinflint strategist category, I wasn't able to buy a used Yaris a few months ago for about £6k and now my head is refusing to pay the over inflated prices. But the savings seem to kick in on ev so it could be viable. Would I just be throwing money down the drain for a battery leased Zoe about £6k or should I do a PCP for battery owned?
Have EVs inflated their prices too over the last year, I like the ev savings but as before worried I'm throwing away money.
Thanks.
Cost Efficient Wannabe.
Edited by Sam M on 02/10/2021 at 07:10
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Which website is this?
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Which website is this?
?
honestjohn.co.uk
Says at top of the page.....
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Not so long ago the general thought was not to buy an ex rental car Hertz or the like for the perception of how it may have been driven or generally respected. Does not this same argument hold forth with the renting now by private owners PCP and the like. I personally would like to buy something that was owned in the second hand market EV or ICE
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A small and fairly low powered s/h may have been abused.
Anything with even moderate performance is difficult to mechanically abuse - the driver will rapidly accumulate points. If still under warranty (ideally 6 months +) with dealer service record mechanical condition is relatively unimportant.
Condition of bodywork, interior and tyres is easy to evaluate.
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I meant the Zoe for £180 pm lease ??
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I meant the Zoe for £180 pm lease ??
It was selectcarleasing.co.uk, but that particular Zoe deal seems to have come and gone, cheapest is now showing as £241 per month. They are still showing the entry level Leaf for £188 though, which is worth a look if you can manage with its 168 mile range and can charge at home.
But just did a separate search for Renault Zoe lease deals and leaseloco.com showing deals from £176 per month.
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Just obtaining an EV is only one part. You need to install a home charger too. That'll be a grand. You'll need off street parking and at least a 100 amp main cutout fuse in your power supply. Thinking of going EV, do your research or ask someone who knows.
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Tempted to say this is complete nonsense - but reality depends on how the car is used.
If used as a minicab with a changeover of drivers at the end of a shift then a fast charge at high power will be needed. If occassionally used for long trips over 200 miles you may not feel comfortable.
Most folk will typically need to charge 1-3 times a week which would give a mileage of ~600 per week - far more than most do. Most are in the habit of parking in their own driveway (assuming they have one) for 8-12 hours each night.
A 7KW charger which costs around £4-500 to install would be more than adequate, could use cheap rate nght time electric supply and would normally require no upgrade to the domestic power supply..
If you don't like the idea of electric, feel uncomfortable about range etc that's fine. Largely spurious arguments get us nowhere.
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Just obtaining an EV is only one part. You need to install a home charger too.
My friend has a Tesla 3 but no home charger. Just uses normal plug in his garage to charge.
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It’s doable if you don’t go far, or very often.
You can charge at c3Kw from a 13 amp plug, so to charge from ‘empty’ to ‘full’ a 50Kwh battery will take about 17 hours. That’s the smaller end of Tesla battery capacity, a 100Kwh battery would take up to 35 hours. That’s obviously a worst case scenario, and if you’re only taking a few percentage points from the range each day then a 3 pin plug could work for you.
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It’s doable if you don’t go far, or very often. You can charge at c3Kw from a 13 amp plug, so to charge from ‘empty’ to ‘full’ a 50Kwh battery will take about 17 hours. That’s the smaller end of Tesla battery capacity, a 100Kwh battery would take up to 35 hours. That’s obviously a worst case scenario, and if you’re only taking a few percentage points from the range each day then a 3 pin plug could work for you.
I did an analysis of my travel patterns. For 50 weeks of the year I could use a 13amp plug charger with no issues ever.
The other 2 weeks would be 200 + mile round trips - and then charging could be done at commercial outlets.
So no 7KW home charger needed.
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I did an analysis of my travel patterns. For 50 weeks of the year I could use a 13amp plug charger with no issues ever.
The other 2 weeks would be 200 + mile round trips - and then charging could be done at commercial outlets.
So no 7KW home charger needed.
The fact that I don't have off street parking is obviously very awkward for me, but ignoring that particular issue for the moment, I had been thinking along that lines were I to get an electric van. I'm usually home by 1530 and my earliest start (3 days per month) has me leaving the house at 0620, so 15 hours charge time at the minimum, but that could rise to 18hours. Furthest I'd travel in a day would be 100 miles, but most days would be half that or less.
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I wouldn’t be surprised to see 3 phase electricity supply going into new builds, as EV usage ramps up - that’ll enable a 22Kw wall box to be installed.
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Those genuinely wealthy, successful or powerful typically have no need of visible ostentation to demonstrate to others their sense of self.worth. They drive 12 year old Volvos, wear threadbare Barbour jackets when out in the countryside, and have a house full of well worn quality furniture and carpets.
Visible affluence is an afflication in those often insecure individuals who need the reassurance of owenership and glitz.
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While their discreet grade 2 listed wooden barn (fully temperature controlled, of course) contains a couple of Ferrari 250 GTOs, a Lamborghini Muira and a Jaguar C-Type!
That's going to be £80-90 Million.
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