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SWMBO and I are due for flu jabs this afternoon at the local Boots - sooner than waiting for the GP surgery to get their act together. For the last few years we've managed to get jabbed in the middle of September.
My covid jab was postponed from last Saturday and is now due this Saturday.
I'm very happy to take advantage of anything that will potentially preserve my health. I accept that the covid vaccine is safe and effective. Myths such as the vaccine being experimental, containing microchips, altering your DNA, causing disease or even death, etc., etc. are just that - myths propagated by ignorant people with an agenda.
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Perhaps "experimental" was the wrong word to use.
I could have said novel (first use of mRNA vaccine) emergency-use-only-fast-track-approved=treatment-for-deployment-on-an-unprecedented scale, but "experimental" is more succinct..
It does seem to have been a successful not-experiment so far, (VERY successful commercially) and I didn't get a very severe reaction to the first two.
However, my feeling was (and is) that, as the virus evolves towards a lower threat form, it didn't justify continuing to play catch up by staying "Up to date" with endless boosters. As I understand it these are still targeting variants of the spike protein, so give.fairly narrow-spectrum immunity.
A real infection would give me wider spectrum immunity. Of course if it also killed me I'd look pretty silly, but many Omicron infections are completely asymptomatic.
My agenda here was simply to answer the question in the title, almost as clear an agenda as that of the pharmaceutical companies .
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Flu jab booked for the 15th Oct, Covid booster booked 8th Oct. That'll be the 4th covid jab. Still all OK.
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Flu jab next week, covid top up next month...
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One week on and apart from a very slight tenderness at the actual jab site for a couple of days, no reaction at all. Vaccine was the Moderna Spikevax. I've had 2x AZ and the Pfizer booster last year. Only the Pfizer caused me a mild reaction with the feeling I was coming down with a cold, but it only lasted a few days. No regrets.
No reaction to the flu jab in the other arm either. Wife had both hers last Friday and all okay too.
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I could have said novel (first use of mRNA vaccine) emergency-use-only-fast-track-approved=treatment-for-deployment-on-an-unprecedented scale,
It does seem to have been a successful not-experiment so far, (VERY successful commercially)
as the virus evolves towards a lower threat form,
these are still targeting variants of the spike protein, so give.fairly narrow-spectrum immunity.
A real infection would give me wider spectrum immunity. .
Reading your post leaves me with the impression that you arrived at a conclusion on the booster for reasons which even you cannot fully understand and are seeking reassurance by mining the wide variety of "facts" now in circulation.
I have highlighted some of your reassuring "facts" where a few minutes investigation will reveal opposite points of view. I am not claiming which views are correct and as the saying goes: You pays yer money and you takes yer choice (Punch, 1846). Only this time around you could be paying with your health or your life.
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<< Only this time around you could be paying with your health or your life.>>
Yes, well. I am about to have an ankle replaced, and preliminary examination led to a report recommending the op, going on to list all the possible ways it might go wrong, ending with death. I have decided to accept those risks, and am equally relaxed about the covid jab I had a week ago. Stats accumulated since the start of the pandemic suggest that covid is a threat roughly similar to good old flu (which is how I saw it soon after it began, with some disapproval on this forum).
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"Reading your post leaves me with the impression that you arrived at a conclusion on the booster for reasons which even you cannot fully understand and are seeking reassurance by mining the wide variety of "facts" now in circulation."
Well of course. Which of us can do more?
This is complex stuff, and I don't have any special qualifications in this area.
(Unless you count a (2nd class) Distinction in Population Genetics from Edinburgh University, in the Third Quarter of the 20th Century.)
Edited by edlithgow on 22/09/2022 at 07:27
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Myths such as the vaccine being experimental, containing microchips, altering your DNA, causing disease or even death, etc., etc. are just that - myths propagated by ignorant people with an agenda.
Surely some mistake?
I'd doubt even the most gung ho Jab-Jihadist government or pharma spokesperson would claim covid jabs have caused NO deaths. Given the scale and targetting of these programs, this would be surprising to the point of implausability. The plausible pitch, as usual, is they save more than they kill
Anecdotally, my GF’s grandfather died 3 days after his jab (AstraZeneca I think). But he was in his 70’s, so whaddyagonnado?
Well, you do sophisticated statistics on all the dead grandfathers, I suppose, but you need good data for that.
The "Yellow Card" system for adverse side effects monitoring is well known to under report. Nevertheless, several low frequency fatal syndromes have been identified.
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Ed, I have been reading a book* (by John Emsley, respected writer on chemistry) which gives the history of poisoning.
Elements discussed are mercury, a*r*senic, antimony and lead, both used intentionally by humans and consumed due to environmental factors.
Of particular interest to yourself may be the a*r*senic content of drinking water in places such as Taiwan, Mexico, Finland and several others.
It reports a study in the 1960s which showed that in one region of Taiwan, 10% of people over 60 had cancers, mainly of the skin, where drinking water in the region was 500ppb, (other areas had 600 and 800 ppb)
Tube wells drilled to provide clean water in Bengal and Bangladesh had the unforeseen consequence of exposing 70 million people to a***nic poisoning because the water was not initially tested for a***nic, which was up to 4000ppb.
You are probably aware of this by virtue of your qualifications, I found it an interesting addition to such chemical knowledge I remember from student days.
*The Elements of Murder
Edited by galileo on 22/09/2022 at 11:51
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Ed, I have been reading a book* (by John Emsley, respected writer on chemistry) which gives the history of poisoning.
Elements discussed are mercury, a*r*senic, antimony and lead, both used intentionally by humans and consumed due to environmental factors.
Of particular interest to yourself may be the a*r*senic content of drinking water in places such as Taiwan, Mexico, Finland and several others.
It reports a study in the 1960s which showed that in one region of Taiwan, 10% of people over 60 had cancers, mainly of the skin, where drinking water in the region was 500ppb, (other areas had 600 and 800 ppb)
Tube wells drilled to provide clean water in Bengal and Bangladesh had the unforeseen consequence of exposing 70 million people to a***nic poisoning because the water was not initially tested for a***nic, which was up to 4000ppb.
You are probably aware of this by virtue of your qualifications, I found it an interesting addition to such chemical knowledge I remember from student days.
*The Elements of Murder
I had heard of those issues in general terms, but I havn't tried to get my local water supply checked, though I dont think its from an artesian source.
Few people drink tap water directly here, either buying bottled or via a water dispensing machine, which have resin and activated charcoal filters.
'I'm embarrassed to admit that I dont actually know how effective these are. I'll have to stop sneering at the local unawareness/denial of the chronic winter air pollution (my main concern) until I've checked that out a bit.
The power of denial
There are also areas where the soil is contaminated with dioxin, and where the fish farms have been closed down, though I'll bet there's still some fishing going on.
The local river holds heavy metal records due to PCB metal recycling, but you see people fishing in it. A researcher here approached some of these people and warned them that fish sampled were heavily contaminated.
"Oh no problem"ses they. ""We don't eat them"
"Oh so you just catch and release for sport?" ses the whitecoat
"Of course not" ses they. "We sell them"
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I'd doubt even the most gung ho Jab-Jihadist government or pharma spokesperson would claim covid jabs have caused NO deaths. Given the scale and targetting of these programs, this would be surprising to the point of implausability. The plausible pitch, as usual, is they save more than they kill
Still following the same pattern of seeking reassurance for your decision.
The reality is that everything we do and use in life carries some risk of possible illness, injury or death. So you if you wish you can likewise find reassurance for a decision to avoid or forego anything.
Sadly the highest degree of risk is attached to the one activity that none of us could avoid. Being born carries a 100% risk of death.
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I'd doubt even the most gung ho Jab-Jihadist government or pharma spokesperson would claim covid jabs have caused NO deaths. Given the scale and targetting of these programs, this would be surprising to the point of implausability. The plausible pitch, as usual, is they save more than they kill
Still following the same pattern of seeking reassurance for your decision.
Nope, I was responding to a post which suggested that vaccine deaths are a myth, because it was too clearly at variance with known facts and plausabiility to go unchallenged.
The associated implication that I was "ignorant with an agenda" I left alone, because its true, though everything is relative.
But, suppose I was "seeking reassurance for my decision"? So what?
I'm actually fairly comfortable with my decision, thoughof course I'm prepared to reconsider it if I become aware of convincing counter-evidence.
The worrying possibility associated with this program is not, I'd suggest, immediate vaccine deaths, but an increase in predisposition to chronic non-fatal conditions such as autoimmune diseases like arthritis. This might never be detected (especially if one didn't want to look) but, given the huge scale of the deployment, a tiny effect would greatly increase the sum total of misery.
If I was responsible for this program (if anyone is, and thank the lord I'm not sir) that would keep me awake at night.
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The worrying possibility associated with this program is not, I'd suggest, immediate vaccine deaths, but an increase in predisposition to chronic non-fatal conditions such as autoimmune diseases like arthritis. This might never be detected (especially if one didn't want to look) but, given the huge scale of the deployment, a tiny effect would greatly increase the sum total of misery.
If I was responsible for this program (if anyone is, and thank the lord I'm not sir) that would keep me awake at night.
You seem unable to accept that, given your vaccine worry, logic says you should therefore be even more concerned about daily aspects of your life which carry known risks. Do you use electricity or gas or fires, cross roads, drive a car, travel on planes? Or is your entire life governed by the need to avoid every possible risk? None of those examples is unavoidable if risk bothers you.
Closer to your vaccine concern, are you self-sufficient in food production? Otherwise almost everything you eat or drink will contain or have been treated with or have come into contact with chemicals developed in the last 50 or so years. Their immediate risk is low (except perhaps for those with an allergy problem) but nobody can give you an absolute guarantee that there is no possibility of an "increase in predisposition to chronic non-fatal conditions".
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The worrying possibility associated with this program is not, I'd suggest, immediate vaccine deaths, but an increase in predisposition to chronic non-fatal conditions such as autoimmune diseases like arthritis. This might never be detected (especially if one didn't want to look) but, given the huge scale of the deployment, a tiny effect would greatly increase the sum total of misery.
If I was responsible for this program (if anyone is, and thank the lord I'm not sir) that would keep me awake at night.
You seem unable to accept that, given your vaccine worry, logic says you should therefore be even more concerned about daily aspects of your life which carry known risks.
Thats right.
Fair cop, guvnor, but society is to blame.
I'm unable to accept it because it doesn't make any sense.
Cue Illustrative anecdote.
Sometime in the mid seventies I was in an RE Explosive Ordnance Disposal Squadron at Shoeburyness, clearing the site of London’s prospective 3rd airport, which had a lot of stuff due to containing some artillery proving ranges, plus a Luftwaffe contribution, sea mines from both sides, USAAF abort dropping ground, rubber coated beach mines etc, etc.
I remember being in a meeting between the Army and civilian workers, in which the latter were threatening industrial action in support of a claim for hazardous duty allowance.
Army Spokesman: “This work is safer than than crossing the road” (Such an apparently absurd claim would be a lot more plausible in Taiwan).
Bolshie Civvie: “I don’t believe you, but even if it is, we have to cross the road as well”
All these comparative statements designed to talk down risk, (very popular to talk about clinical X-rays where accidental radiation exposure is concerned, for example), ignore this basic fact. Risk is usually additive, (radiation exposure risk especially so.)
The fact that one accepts, or cannot avoid, some risks, does not in any way imply that one should, or must, therefore accept any or all other risks.
Your "therefore" is spurious. It doesnt make any sense.
Edited by edlithgow on 26/09/2022 at 11:03
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Ed, I have been reading a book* (by John Emsley, respected writer on chemistry) which gives the history of poisoning.
Elements discussed are mercury, a*r*senic, antimony and lead, both used intentionally by humans and consumed due to environmental factors.
Of particular interest to yourself may be the a*r*senic content of drinking water in places such as Taiwan, Mexico, Finland and several others.
It reports a study in the 1960s which showed that in one region of Taiwan, 10% of people over 60 had cancers, mainly of the skin, where drinking water in the region was 500ppb, (other areas had 600 and 800 ppb)
Tube wells drilled to provide clean water in Bengal and Bangladesh had the unforeseen consequence of exposing 70 million people to a***nic poisoning because the water was not initially tested for a***nic, which was up to 4000ppb.
You are probably aware of this by virtue of your qualifications, I found it an interesting addition to such chemical knowledge I remember from student days.
*The Elements of Murder
Does it go into the lead tetraethyl story? Knowingly dispersing tonnes of a heavy metal, the toxicity of which had been known for hundreds of years, would fit the Murder bit in the "Elements of Murder" title rather well.
CFC's were another environmental disaster from the same guy, though maybe not quite so blatant.
Some CV.
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*The Elements of Murder
Does it go into the lead tetraethyl story? Knowingly dispersing tonnes of a heavy metal, the toxicity of which had been known for hundreds of years, would fit the Murder bit in the "Elements of Murder" title rather well.
CFC's were another environmental disaster from the same guy, though maybe not quite so blatant.
Some CV.
The book does indeed detail the history of TEL (from its discovery in 1854) including deaths in the 1920s at Dupont, and Standard oil plants making the stuff, effects on gas station workers adding it to fuel through, and the reduction in environmental lead as its use was discontinued in recent years.
The efforts of the producing industry to defend it are also given.
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You seem unable to accept that, given your vaccine worry, logic says you should therefore be even more concerned about daily aspects of your life which carry known risks.
Thats right.
Fair cop, guvnor, but society is to blame.
I'm unable to accept it because it doesn't make any sense.
Your "therefore" is spurious. It doesnt make any sense.
It makes sense if you had not edited out the subsequent text in my post.
My question to you was whether you voluntarily use or do items from a list of things which can be avoided if, like the vaccine, you choose to do so yet, unlike the vaccine, come with well-known risks. Do you?
Edited by misar on 26/09/2022 at 20:28
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You seem unable to accept that, given your vaccine worry, logic says you should therefore be even more concerned about daily aspects of your life which carry known risks.
Thats right.
Fair cop, guvnor, but society is to blame.
I'm unable to accept it because it doesn't make any sense.
Your "therefore" is spurious. It doesnt make any sense.
It makes sense if you had not edited out the subsequent text in my post.
My question to you was whether you voluntarily use or do items from a list of things which can be avoided if, like the vaccine, you choose to do so yet, unlike the vaccine, come with well-known risks. Do you?
I've explained why your subsequent text (and the above question) was irrelevant. i explained this in the bit you edited out.
I see little point in repeating the explanation. You either get it or you dont
You can flog a dead horse underwater, but you can't make it drink.
Edited by edlithgow on 28/09/2022 at 06:08
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Having my booster later today, hopefully get the flu jab as well if they do the same routine at this place as the one the neighbours visited.
No reaction to the first 3 so fingers crossed this time.
Having had Covid this summer which was little worse that a bad cold (nothing like proper flu) not being protected is totally stupid. Before the vaccine you were at a high risk of death, with the vaccine that risk is greatly reduced (and I appreciate its a different strain now). The fewer people that contract it the lower the risk of Covid mutating into something more severe again.
Without doubt its here to stay (the Chinese zero Covid approach is stupid) and the vaccine is the best way to manage it.
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Without doubt its here to stay (the Chinese zero Covid approach is stupid) and the vaccine is the best way to manage it.
Like you, I tested Covid-positive in February (that was almost the only symptom) and I had a third booster two weeks ago without noticeable after-effect. But I'm not sure anyone can judge just how effective mass vaccination has been, as there hasn't been a proper control experiment. Certainly there were a lot of attributed deaths in the early days, but as Covid mutations developed they seemed to converge towards flu, which was killing people at a similar rate. I'm not really sure why one bug is ignored while we all run scared of the other.
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