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Bought another cheapie. - SLO76
Last minute request landed on my lap via swmbo a few days back. Her cousin is returning to the UK for three months and wants a cheap car instead of hiring one. Plan in mind is to buy it, run it for buttons then sell it on with minimal loss. I do like this kinda thing.

I was limited in scope by the budget of £2,000, a need for low insurance, enough space for elderly parent plus walker frame, reliability and minimal cost overall. I shortlisted the Honda Jazz, Ford Fusion and Nissan Note as front runners but began searching with an open mind. I looked at several examples of each, all in relatively good unabused condition as per the norm for these pensioner favourites and today bought a very tidy post facelift 59 plate Nissan Note 1.4 Visa in bright (surprisingly unfaded) red with 85000 miles up, complete with a full service history from a local trader I’m familiar with. The car is in excellent order, drives without fault and cost all of £1900. No A/C is a downside according to darling wife but since it wasn’t working on any of the other cars I looked at with A/C fitted I’d simply say that it’s one less thing to worry about. It even came complete with weird old pensioner steering wheel cover, an extra I love to see.

The dealer has previously sold the car and has asked for its return when we no longer need it, promising a decent price or a commission sale on our behalf. Though I’ll probably have a pop at it myself as it’s likely to be an easy sell. Much boredom was apparent on swmbo’s face as the two of us went off down memory lane about the good old days of flogging motors. She ended up walking out and leaving us to it, very considerate of her.

Edited by SLO76 on 02/08/2021 at 23:51

Bought another cheapie. - Ethan Edwards

Back in 2011 I bought a new 1.6 Note Ntec. Wasn't too sure about the looks but it grew on me. Great car, probably the 1.4 was a better buy in terms of economy but I do like a car to have a bit of pep. Took it oop North and all over. Surprisingly roomy and comfortable.

Edited by Ethan Edwards on 02/08/2021 at 23:56

Bought another cheapie. - SLO76
I quite like the Note. To me it’s a better car to drive than the more successful Honda Jazz and it’s usually cheaper to buy. Chain cam, spacious, rides and steers better than a Jazz. They attract not a single glance from the boy racer brigade meaning 99% are pensioner owned and haven’t seen north of 60mph in their lives. This wee car feels tight as a drum, the old fella who owned it has cared for it well.

Edited by SLO76 on 03/08/2021 at 00:01

Bought another cheapie. - badbusdriver

When I've been contemplating coming out of the Motability scheme and buying something reasonably cheap instead, the 1st gen Note is usually one of the first I think of.

As I'd ideally be looking at an auto, the Note has a nice robust t/c box. They are also a narrow car, ideal for the narrow street I live on, but a spacious cabin.

Bought another cheapie. - nellyjak

Nice one, SLO...can't see you losing much on that one.

These "pensioner" models are always worth a look.

Bought another cheapie. - SLO76

When I've been contemplating coming out of the Motability scheme and buying something reasonably cheap instead, the 1st gen Note is usually one of the first I think of.

As I'd ideally be looking at an auto, the Note has a nice robust t/c box. They are also a narrow car, ideal for the narrow street I live on, but a spacious cabin.

Couple for sale near me that flagged up. Mostly low mileage but one very tidy example in gold metallic had 96,000 miles up and looked and sounded spot on.
Bought another cheapie. - John F

No A/C is a downside according to darling wife

It is August, well after the summer solstice. You appear to live north of the 55th parallel where sunshine and warmth will be in short supply for the next nine months but where the air quality is probably among best on the planet. Apart from heating it, why would you need this excellent air entering the car to be 'conditioned' ?

Bought another cheapie. - groaver

No A/C is a downside according to darling wife

It is August, well after the summer solstice. You appear to live north of the 55th parallel where sunshine and warmth will be in short supply for the next nine months but where the air quality is probably among best on the planet. Apart from heating it, why would you need this excellent air entering the car to be 'conditioned' ?

Cold wet days have a bad habit of steaming up the windows inside.

Bought another cheapie. - badbusdriver

No A/C is a downside according to darling wife

It is August, well after the summer solstice. You appear to live north of the 55th parallel where sunshine and warmth will be in short supply for the next nine months but where the air quality is probably among best on the planet. Apart from heating it, why would you need this excellent air entering the car to be 'conditioned' ?

Cold wet days have a bad habit of steaming up the windows inside.

Yes, but as well as helping to demist the interior windows, with the weather being as topsy turvy as it is, having warm spells in the middle of winter is certainly not out of the question.

I remember one day a few years ago I had to strip down to t-shirt, so warm was the weather. Time of year?, mid-December!. The following May, there was a very cold spell with snow, ice and very bitter winds!.

Don't get me wrong, I don't consider it essential, and have managed without it in my vans for the 13 years I've been cleaning windows. But given the choice, I'd rather have it than not.

Edited by badbusdriver on 03/08/2021 at 12:04

Bought another cheapie. - SLO76
I treat working air con as a bonus on an older car but I don’t expect it or allow the lack of it to be a deal killer. This wee car is as basic as it gets these days. PAS, central locking and electric front windows, all you need and nothing more.
Bought another cheapie. - Alby Back
I'm sure they are worthy little cars, but if a Nissan Note or a Honda Jazz turned out to be last car you owned, as many of those vehicles will be for some, you would surely have to at least briefly reflect on how your life had come to this wouldn't you?

;-)
Bought another cheapie. - SLO76
I'm sure they are worthy little cars, but if a Nissan Note or a Honda Jazz turned out to be last car you owned, as many of those vehicles will be for some, you would surely have to at least briefly reflect on how your life had come to this wouldn't you? ;-)

I like to think that I’ll be one of those grey haired oldies I often see at the wheel of a nice MX5 with the hood down. All the reliability of a Jazz but much more fun.
Bought another cheapie. - Alby Back
That's it, hold on to the ambition, indeed plan, of growing old disgracefully. I certainly intend to.
;-)
Bought another cheapie. - expat
I'm sure they are worthy little cars, but if a Nissan Note or a Honda Jazz turned out to be last car you owned, as many of those vehicles will be for some, you would surely have to at least briefly reflect on how your life had come to this wouldn't you? ;-)

I like to think that I’ll be one of those grey haired oldies I often see at the wheel of a nice MX5 with the hood down. All the reliability of a Jazz but much more fun.

Before I hit my second childhood I would rather like to have second teenage years. Unfortunately that is not likely.

Bought another cheapie. - ohsoslow

Wife has a 59 reg Note 1.4 NTEC bought from new, still going well with few worries over normal wear items needing sorting. I had to de-rust and paint the engine sump which was an MOT advisory with little else to worry about.

It is still pleasant to drive, having got rid of the original Continental tyres which didn't wear very well and were noisy.

It has no street cred which could be a plus, is no street rocket but goes well enough. Apart from 'management' knocking the paint off three corners the bodywork and inside is bearing up well.

We also have an MX-5 to join the other 'grey haired oldies' so all is well here.

Bought another cheapie. - edlithgow

This wee car is as basic as it gets these days. PAS, central locking and electric front windows, all you need and nothing more...apart from PAS, central locking and electric front windows.

Bought another cheapie. - SLO76

This wee car is as basic as it gets these days. PAS, central locking and electric front windows, all you need and nothing more...apart from PAS, central locking and electric front windows.

Only thing on that list I’m happy to live without would be electric windows.
Bought another cheapie. - madf

This wee car is as basic as it gets these days. PAS, central locking and electric front windows, all you need and nothing more...apart from PAS, central locking and electric front windows.

Only thing on that list I’m happy to live without would be electric windows.

The best windows I had was in a 1946 Rover 16. The driver's side window had a longer lever which was very highly geared so a move from top to bottom took about 3/4 of a turn (IIRC). Great for hand signals - it had semaphores which were unreliable.

(I hasten to add I was a 19 year old student at the time and the car cost £80. It taught me the meaning of the phrases: axle tramp, brake fade and heavy steering.

Bought another cheapie. - Engineer Andy

This wee car is as basic as it gets these days. PAS, central locking and electric front windows, all you need and nothing more...apart from PAS, central locking and electric front windows.

Only thing on that list I’m happy to live without would be electric windows.

Indeed - one more thing to go wrong, especially on older cars where fixing them is more than the car's worth. It's why when I got my first car (MY96 Nissan Micra 1.0 S), I chose one with no electric windows, A/C, central locking and that had manually-adjustable (non-heated) mirrors. As a small, light car, it's lack of power steering was barely noticeable - easy to maneuvre at low speed and park.

Today, sure, I'd have PAS and central locking (not that any modern car doesn't have either [not keyless entry - urgh]) and A/C (though I prefer climate control, though not the utterly pointless 'dual zone' type), but if I was going the bangernomics type route, I'd just use the KISS method and get the bare minimum spec I needed to get the car in the best condition for its age/mileage.

The other main benefit of getting a base-ish spec car is that they ride far better and cost less to run as far as the wheels and tyres because they user smaller wheels (alloy or steel) and higher profile, narrower tyres which last longer, arec far cheaper to replace, give better mpg and are less susceptible to damage.

Obviously the better riding tyres also helps the suspension last longer due to the extra cushioning effect. For most 'ordinary' cars, the drop in handling is not that noticeable.

Depending on my circumstances and of the market generally, I may still buy a new car next time out, but I'll still intend to run it into the ground as I'm currently doing with my 15yo Mazda3.

Bought another cheapie. - edlithgow

This wee car is as basic as it gets these days. PAS, central locking and electric front windows, all you need and nothing more...apart from PAS, central locking and electric front windows.

Only thing on that list I’m happy to live without would be electric windows.

Only thing on that list I've had is electric windows and they were a b***** nuisance.

OK, what you havn't had you don't miss, so I don't, but even allowing for that my Renault Dodge 50 ex-BT workshop truck and block-of-flats impersonateur extraordinaire didn't have power steering and still went around corners.

So I find it odd its a "need" on a Note,

I've never driven a Note though. Maybe its huge and unwieldy. Pictures can be deceptive

Bought another cheapie. - John F

This wee car is as basic as it gets these days. PAS, central locking and electric front windows, all you need and nothing more...apart from PAS, central locking and electric front windows.

My TR7 has none of the following - A/C, PAS, brake servo, central locking, electric windows, catalytic converter, cambelt. Their absence has doubtless saved me much expense over the last forty years. Also, there is no computerised engine management system or electronic ignition with coil packs, so it should survive the next major solar flare.

Bought another cheapie. - badbusdriver

OK, what you havn't had you don't miss, so I don't, but even allowing for that my Renault Dodge 50 ex-BT workshop truck and block-of-flats impersonateur extraordinaire didn't have power steering and still went around corners.

So I find it odd its a "need" on a Note,

I've never driven a Note though. Maybe its huge and unwieldy. Pictures can be deceptive

A few points.

your Renault/Dodge may not have had PAS, but that doesn't mean it didn't need it. You may have managed with no PAS, but that isn't the same as preferring it that way. Also, in order to make it 'manageable', the steering was geared as such(*), which in this case means multiple turns lock to lock (6?, more?). And a final point re this particular vehicle, that being the possibility of your remembering of just how manageable it was with no PAS through rose tinted specs. In other words, were you to drive the same vehicle today, I suspect you'd find it much harder work than you remember.

Your current Daihatsu may also not have PAS but that doesn't really count given it weighs about the same as a large bag of potatoes. But if memory serves from a previous post, you do inflate the tyres to beyond what is recommended, something which would make the steering lighter, so maybe you would rather it had PAS after all...........

(*)While the Note in question here is quite a low spec, and therefore has relatively narrow tyres with a tall sidewall, the gearing of the rack would still make it completely unmanageable without PAS for a less physically able driver. The top spec version of this era Note would have at least 205/45x17's (possibly bigger), along with the same gearing (of the rack) as the basic car. I'd sure like to see you negotiate a multi-storey car park in one of them if the PAS packed up!.

I have also had plenty of cars without PAS, and I also 'managed'. Would I go back to one (as an everyday car)?, no.

Bought another cheapie. - Metropolis.
I'd sure like to see you negotiate a multi-storey car park in one of them if the PAS packed up!.

It is one thing having non-power assisted steering. It is quite another, trying to steer a car with broken power steering! You are then moving the hydraulic fluid at the same time and in some cars it becomes virtually impossible unless you are built like a barn door.
Bought another cheapie. - edlithgow

OK, what you havn't had you don't miss, so I don't, but even allowing for that my Renault Dodge 50 ex-BT workshop truck and block-of-flats impersonateur extraordinaire didn't have power steering and still went around corners.

So I find it odd its a "need" on a Note,

I've never driven a Note though. Maybe its huge and unwieldy. Pictures can be deceptive

A few points.

your Renault/Dodge may not have had PAS, but that doesn't mean it didn't need it. You may have managed with no PAS, but that isn't the same as preferring it that way. Also, in order to make it 'manageable', the steering was geared as such(*), which in this case means multiple turns lock to lock (6?, more?). And a final point re this particular vehicle, that being the possibility of your remembering of just how manageable it was with no PAS through rose tinted specs. In other words, were you to drive the same vehicle today, I suspect you'd find it much harder work than you remember.

Your current Daihatsu may also not have PAS but that doesn't really count given it weighs about the same as a large bag of potatoes. But if memory serves from a previous post, you do inflate the tyres to beyond what is recommended, something which would make the steering lighter, so maybe you would rather it had PAS after all...........

(*)While the Note in question here is quite a low spec, and therefore has relatively narrow tyres with a tall sidewall, the gearing of the rack would still make it completely unmanageable without PAS for a less physically able driver. The top spec version of this era Note would have at least 205/45x17's (possibly bigger), along with the same gearing (of the rack) as the basic car. I'd sure like to see you negotiate a multi-storey car park in one of them if the PAS packed up!.

I have also had plenty of cars without PAS, and I also 'managed'. Would I go back to one (as an everyday car)?, no.

To argue that PAS is essential because vehicles designed with and for PAS don't work very well without it, is to argue in a circle.

I remember the Dodge as being scary to drive in London, but that was mostly because

(a) London

(b) I'm not a qualified truck driver and shouldn't really have been driving it, though there was a legal loophole, and

(c) lack of rear vision, making reversing hazardous.

Against that background, turning the big, highly geared steering wheel to get it to go around corners was a positive pleasure, giving me the brief illusion of being in control.

What with an uncertain future and an apparently impossible past, we must all try to live in the moment as best we can.

Edited by edlithgow on 05/08/2021 at 00:31

Bought another cheapie. - Tunder
The Notes a great little car. Wife has one. It is so easy to drive as all of the controls are to hand, the gear ratios are right, the visibility is excellent and the dials are easy to read.

Seat adjustment is good and you can fit a mountain bike in the back with the seats down.

Shame they stopped making them really.
Bought another cheapie. - SLO76
“ Seat adjustment is good and you can fit a mountain bike in the back with the seats down.”

Might keep it myself when she’s done with it then. It’s a very tidy wee car.
Bought another cheapie. - badbusdriver

To argue that PAS is essential because vehicles designed with and for PAS don't work very well without it, is to argue in a circle.

My cousin has a 1.0 Vauxhall Corsa, had it since new, maybe 6 years or so. She also has many health issues, including fibromyalgia. Were it not for the PAS, she wouldn't be able to drive. So while you may be happy for people like her to be off the road in order to do away with the (in your opinion) backward step of making cars easier to drive, I'm afraid I disagree.

Bought another cheapie. - Big John

Mrs B J had a 1984 Polo without power steering / servo brakes for 19 years but no way we'd want to go back to those days.

The 2006 Panda she has now used to be her Dad's car and has power steering that also has a "city" button to help further at low speeds - this proved invaluable as he had polymyalgia.

Edited by Big John on 05/08/2021 at 21:20

Bought another cheapie. - SLO76
While I do favour power assistance I hate the artificial feel of today’s electric racks over the older hydraulic systems. The perfect setup was to be found behind the wheel of most Peugeot’s of the 80’s and 90’s and in Fords from the Mondeo onwards. Exercising a Ford Puma 1.7 on a twisting B road was a true joy for example. It was light at low speed but offered loads of feel as you got a groove on.
Bought another cheapie. - badbusdriver
While I do favour power assistance I hate the artificial feel of today’s electric racks over the older hydraulic systems. The perfect setup was to be found behind the wheel of most Peugeot’s of the 80’s and 90’s and in Fords from the Mondeo onwards. Exercising a Ford Puma 1.7 on a twisting B road was a true joy for example. It was light at low speed but offered loads of feel as you got a groove on.

While I never had the pleasure of hustling a Puma 1.7, I did have plenty of opportunities to hustle a Ka. This was the facelifted model, a car and van hire place I worked for had about half a dozen of them (can't remember if they all did by then, but ours had PAS), and though not fast at all, on twisty back roads they were truly brilliant!. I believe the steering on them (as with most Fords of the era) would be similar to the Puma.

I have also driven an early Ka without PAS. Fine on the move, but surprisingly heavy at parking speeds for such a small car.

Bought another cheapie. - Xileno

Puma was fantastic, I drove a few and very nearly bought one in about 2001 I think. I don't know who made the 1.7 engine (I don't think it was Ford) but it was great. Sure to be a future classic, those that haven't rusted away as the bodywork was poor.

Bought another cheapie. - SLO76

Puma was fantastic, I drove a few and very nearly bought one in about 2001 I think. I don't know who made the 1.7 engine (I don't think it was Ford) but it was great. Sure to be a future classic, those that haven't rusted away as the bodywork was poor.

The 1.4/1.6 and 1.7 motors in the Puma were all based on the same Yamaha design created for Ford in the 90’s. These were excellent engines from the 1.25 in the Fiesta to the 1.7 in the Puma all were rev happy, a real pleasure to use and very robust.
Bought another cheapie. - edlithgow

To argue that PAS is essential because vehicles designed with and for PAS don't work very well without it, is to argue in a circle.

My cousin has a 1.0 Vauxhall Corsa, had it since new, maybe 6 years or so. She also has many health issues, including fibromyalgia. Were it not for the PAS, she wouldn't be able to drive. So while you may be happy for people like her to be off the road in order to do away with the (in your opinion) backward step of making cars easier to drive, I'm afraid I disagree.

i'm afraid I don't care that you disagree. nor do I care much for your line of argument

The original quote i was responding to was "Everything you need and nothing more."

You means me when I read it, so I was clearly making a personal statement. I have never had PAS, and (therefore) I don't need it.

You have had it and wouldnt do without it is also a personal statement and is also OK

Howerver. to suggest, in a follow-up. (after some stuff suggesting I really did need PAS but was delusional.which is just about OK) that this in fact shows callous indifference to the disabled is a When did you stop beating your wife style argument and fairly offensive

Bought another cheapie. - badbusdriver

You means me when I read it, so I was clearly making a personal statement. I have never had PAS, and (therefore) I don't need it.

Hmm, but you are quite happy to comment on why someone other than you, i.e, SLO. considers PAS essential,

So I find it odd its a "need" on a Note,

I've never driven a Note though. Maybe its huge and unwieldy. Pictures can be deceptive

The above comment along with the "huge and unwieldy" sarcasm comes across as, "if I can manage without PAS, everyone else should too". Which is the only real indifference to the disabled or less physically able being shown on this thread.

And the fact that you seem to have made a direct leap from the above to wife beating (in any context), is both inexplicable and disturbing.

Bought another cheapie. - edlithgow

You means me when I read it, so I was clearly making a personal statement. I have never had PAS, and (therefore) I don't need it.

Hmm, but you are quite happy to comment on why someone other than you, i.e, SLO. considers PAS essential,

Nope. If SLO had said "I need" that would have been a personal statement. He didn't. He made a general statement. But if he had made a personal statement, I would in fact, have been quite happy to make a counter statement, as...er...you did. Only you then went a bit further into personal attack territory.

So I find it odd its a "need" on a Note,

I've never driven a Note though. Maybe its huge and unwieldy. Pictures can be deceptive

The above comment along with the "huge and unwieldy" sarcasm comes across as, "if I can manage without PAS, everyone else should too". Which is the only real indifference to the disabled or less physically able being shown on this thread.

There was a bit of sarcasm, true, though your implication that it was specifically directed at little old arthritic ladies etc. is pushing it quite a lot. I'd think it more likely it was directed at you.

(I'm assuming you are not, in fact, a little old arthritic lady, though its the Internyet so you never know. In such a case, please accept my apologies, Madam)

But it turns out that the more upmarket versions are in fact huge and unwieldy because they have hugely wide low profile tyres that won't work without PAS, as...er...you pointed out.

And the fact that you seem to have made a direct leap from the above to wife beating (in any context), is both inexplicable and disturbing.

Inexplicable and disturbing if you are not familiar with the phrase and its usage. I can't really be blamed for that.

www.huffpost.com/entry/when-did-you-stop-beating_b...9

Basically my statement "I've never had PAS and don't feel I need it", just like your counter statement "Ï've had PAS and feel I need it" is irrefutable, though you have power-steered around in circles trying to refute it.

Trying so hard, in fact, that you've had to change it to "Society has not benefitted from PAS", which isn't what I said, or would feel able to say without extensive research.

Bought another cheapie. - Xileno

Let's leave this spat to one side now please and get back to the original theme of the thread.

Thanks, mod

Bought another cheapie. - SLO76
On the subject of power steering, I recall some real muscle building cars from the 80’s that went without but really should have had it. Friends dad had a 1987 Ford Granada 1.8 GL with no PAS which was horrendously heavy at low speeds. I recall the Lada Riva having terribly heavy unassisted steering too along with base model Nissan Bluebirds.
Bought another cheapie. - Andrew-T

<< I have never had PAS, and (therefore) I don't need it.>>

I think BBD was suggesting that if you succumb to arthritis (for example) there may come a time when you MIGHT need it.

As you all know of my attachment to the Pug 205 for three decades, I fondly recall driving the lower-energy models, which at less that 800 kilos ran on narrow high-profile tyres and didn't need PAS. When SWMBO got her Dturbo, which was front-heavy with fatter tyres, PAS became a big advantage, mostly for parking.

Bought another cheapie. - Xileno

I read "you" as being a generic pronoun, i.e. not aimed at anyone in particular.

It's an interesting subject worthy of discussion but let's not allow the thread to degrade.

I learned to drive back in the 80s in a 205 diesel without PAS, I can't say it bothered me at the time because it was all I knew. But after passing my test and driving cars with PAS, I certainly would not want a car now without it.

Do any new cars not have it fitted as standard? Maybe a basic Sandero? Not sure.

Bought another cheapie. - badbusdriver

Do any new cars not have it fitted as standard? Maybe a basic Sandero? Not sure.

I don't think so, no reason not to as electric systems are (relatively) cheap and have virtually no effect on emissions.

Bought another cheapie. - bathtub tom

Do any new cars not have it fitted as standard? Maybe a basic Sandero? Not sure.

Perhaps Twingo? Small, light, rear engine and RWD, probably not necessary.

Bought another cheapie. - badbusdriver

On the subject of power steering, I recall some real muscle building cars from the 80’s that went without but really should have had it. Friends dad had a 1987 Ford Granada 1.8 GL with no PAS which was horrendously heavy at low speeds. I recall the Lada Riva having terribly heavy unassisted steering too along with base model Nissan Bluebirds.

Out of the 13 or so cars I've owned without PAS, the heaviest in no particular order were, a Lada 1600 saloon (predecessor to the Riva), two SAAB 99's and a Volvo 144.

Lightest would have between a Fiat 128, a (1985) VW Polo saloon and a Suzuki ST90 panel van (similar to a Bedford Rascal).

When I was a bus driver, another driver told me of how the PAS on his coach failed on the way into the centre of Aberdeen. Said he enlisted the help of a young fit passenger to manhandle the steering wheel enough get the bus round two right angle turns in between where it failed and the bus staton!.

Bought another cheapie. - bathtub tom

FIL had a Volvo 360. 155-13 tyres fitted weren't up to the power and not narrow enough for the 2-litre lump under the bonnet for the lack of power steering.

Bought another cheapie. - SLO76
That’s darling cousin finished with the wee red 59 plate Nissan Note 1.4 and I’m about to put it up for sale at £1750 with a fresh ticket. Another worthy cheap car in my opinion. It’s not caused a minutes grief in the three months she’s had it but now she’s away back to Australia. Depending on the cost to get through another Mot and final sale price it’s a cheap way to have a car for three months rather than hiring one, I hope.

Edited by SLO76 on 18/12/2021 at 16:08

Bought another cheapie. - John F

Just seen the PAS debate above - which deserves a reply. It's a lot to do with the caster angle. Cars without PAS (e.g. my TR7) have a caster angle which ensures the steering is not too heavy. Here is an explanation.........

Caster angle settings allow the vehicle manufacturer to balance steering effort, high speed stability and front end cornering effectiveness. Increasing the amount of positive caster will increase steering effort and straight line tracking, as well as improve high speed stability and cornering effectiveness.

For a small light car, PAS is, IMHO, an expensive superfluity.

Edited by John F on 19/12/2021 at 09:45

Bought another cheapie. - Andrew-T

For a small light car, PAS is, IMHO, an expensive superfluity.

... such as a petrol 205. About 1990 the Dturbo variant of the 205 appeared. Of course the n/a diesel had been around for years, but PAS became almost a necessity on the turbo car. SWMBO's had PAS, but DiY windows - a friend had one whose previous owner had chosen the opposite options, not a smart choice.

Ten years later most cars had pump-driven PAS and these days most have electric I believe.

Bought another cheapie. - Metropolis.
When a the pump goes out on a PAS car, it is monumentally heavy to turn, I assume because of having to move the fluid too.
Bought another cheapie. - badbusdriver

Just seen the PAS debate above - which deserves a reply. It's a lot to do with the caster angle. Cars without PAS (e.g. my TR7) have a caster angle which ensures the steering is not too heavy. Here is an explanation.........

Caster angle settings allow the vehicle manufacturer to balance steering effort, high speed stability and front end cornering effectiveness. Increasing the amount of positive caster will increase steering effort and straight line tracking, as well as improve high speed stability and cornering effectiveness.

I was told by an older bus driver that the original Routemaster bus (presumably not the only one) did not have power steering, but was not especially heavy to steer.

My Dad was a truck driver all his working life, and he has certainly, early on, driven trucks with no power steering. Not 'easy' to steer, especially at low speed, but manageable. Probably the reason old trucks and buses (and cars for that matter) had such enormous steering wheels, for the leverage!.

For a small light car, PAS is, IMHO, an expensive superfluity.

As was said earlier, the electric power steering systems in modern cars are not expensive. And I think someone with arthritis or some other condition which limits the strength they have in arms/wrists/fingers might disagree that it is a superfluity (great word though!)

Bought another cheapie. - thunderbird

For a small light car, PAS is, IMHO, an expensive superfluity.

Last car I drove without power steering was an early 90's Vauxhall Nova. Much smaller and lighter (739kg) than todays "small cars" but in 2003 the thing felt prehistoric compared to the Focus I owned at the time despite being only about 6 years older. It was only about a mile mostly downhill from the wifes uncles house to her her aunts, he had given her the car since no one wanted it.

Praise be for progress.

Bought another cheapie. - SLO76
Just by with reading one of my collection of old car magazines while parked in my sanity silo (the toilet) and it’s a review of the then new Mk V Ford Escort and Orion range. It’s a multiple test of several versions Escort 1.4 LX, Escort Estate 1.6 Ghia and Orion 1.6 EFi Ghia. It makes mention of the differences between the assisted rack of the Orion compared to non-assisted versions and they describe the assisted rack as being much more direct with fewer turns lock to lock, the non-assisted rack was low geared to cope with the weight making the steering an arm twisting palaver at low speeds and during parking.

While I’ll agree that it wasn’t really necessary on very light cars like the AX and 205, in fact I preferred the non-assisted steering of the 205 GTi 1.6 to the assisted setup in the later 1.9 GTi’s, they didn’t make it overly low geared and there was more feel but there was a price to pay on anything heavier with low geared steering requiring much more steering input at lower speeds. Larger cars were horrendous without PAS, I remember driving a Ford Granada Mk III without it and it ruined the car. In fact the Mk V Escort was awful without it, to be honest they were awful with it too until they finally sorted it out in the final facelift in 95.
Bought another cheapie. - RT

It's difficult to avoid comparing apples and cabbages when comparing PAS and non-PAS - the front suspension geometry and steering gearing both have an effect and the poverty-spec model without PAS, of a range that is otherwise assisted, will feel heavier than if the model had been optimised for non-PAS.

The downside of PAS is that it can rip up tarmac when manoeuvring!

Bought another cheapie. - sajid

That reminds me when i bought a l reg astra 1.4 hi torq ls, it had no pas and

The engine was 60 bhp. 0-60 took a leisurely 15 secs. It was fuel injected and kept breaking down. Once it broke down near the traffic lights, due to the battery failing turn out t be a dodgy alternator. Parts were cheap they were cheap as the car kept breaking down.

Even the mot guy was sick of it saying when u getting rid of it, as it needed more work to pass the mot . I traded it in for a jazz, wat a difference rlectric windows ac power steering.

Bought another cheapie. - SLO76
That’s wee Note now sold, and for the full asking price (worth every penny) to my brother including a new exhaust and a wheel bearing. In total the wee car cost £1900 plus £350 for repairs and an Mot so that’s £2250, then sold for £1750 after almost 6mths. It was too good to give up so it’ll stay in the family for the foreseeable. The exhaust and a wheel bearing were cheap (the bearing cost less than £70 fitted) and both are wear and tear items.

Currently we’ve use of the car for the next few months while swmbo awaits her daft new VW ID3 with (as expected) more boxes ticked than I wanted or initially agreed to. We’ve found it a very practical, pleasant little car that’s good on fuel and cheap to repair. I’ve always been a fan of the Mk I Note and my little refresher here hasn’t reduced that.
Bought another cheapie. - Big John
I’ve always been a fan of the Mk I Note and my little refresher here hasn’t reduced that.

My ex boss had a few Notes on the trot - always the 1.6 automatic. Great cars with fab engine and torque converter auto gearbox with lock up and overdrive. He never had trouble with any of them. He avoided the post 2013 model with different engines and CVT gearbox. Instead since then he's had two Toyota Yaris hybrids .

Bought another cheapie. - Steveieb

Interesting SLO.

But would you endorse the Renault Modus which shares most of the main components but does have the problematic headlight bulb changing nightmare !

Bought another cheapie. - SLO76
“ But would you endorse the Renault Modus which shares most of the main components”

Except engines and gearboxes… They look a bit similar and share floorpans and suspension components but mechanically they’re very different. Thus the reason why we still see loads of elderly Mk I Notes on the road and hardly any of Renaults Modus.

It’s now in the hands of brother dear, and so far he’s absolutely delighted with it.
Bought another cheapie. - badbusdriver

“ But would you endorse the Renault Modus which shares most of the main components”

Except engines and gearboxes… They look a bit similar and share floorpans and suspension components but mechanically they’re very different. Thus the reason why we still see loads of elderly Mk I Notes on the road and hardly any of Renaults Modus.

Are you absolutely sure about that SLO?

Looking at the specs, they (Note 1.6 and Modus 1.6) both share exactly the same 1598cc capacity, power and torque figures are all but identical (and the auto versions both use a torque converter auto).

The diesels definitely both use the same engine though.

Bought another cheapie. - Steveieb

On the original thread a friend commutes between Seville and the UK a 2007 Skoda Octavia with the legendary 1.9 PD engine bought from a customer for £400 and he is using it for his commute.

He paid £400 , had the cam belt changed and full service and amazingly this very old car manages to defy the logic.

Not quite as cheap as the Ryanair flights he occasionally uses but still pretty amazing !

Bought another cheapie. - Adampr

On the original thread a friend commutes between Seville and the UK a 2007 Skoda Octavia with the legendary 1.9 PD engine bought from a customer for £400 and he is using it for his commute.

He paid £400 , had the cam belt changed and full service and amazingly this very old car manages to defy the logic.

Not quite as cheap as the Ryanair flights he occasionally uses but still pretty amazing !

Crikey. What time does he have to get up in the morning?

Bought another cheapie. - SLO76
“ Are you absolutely sure about that SLO?

Looking at the specs, they (Note 1.6 and Modus 1.6) both share exactly the same 1598cc capacity, power and torque figures are all but identical (and the auto versions both use a torque converter auto)”

Yup, the petrol engines in the Modus are Renault units and all belt driven, while the Note’s petrol units are all chain driven designs from Nissan. It’s belt failure that often kills the older Renaults while even abused Note’s carry on running.