Land Rover on the hydrogen trail

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 13:55
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Trilogy.

Looks like this could still be an option instead of EV.

www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/land-rover-beg...r

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 14:45
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - focussed

But where is the hydrogen going to come from when your Landy runs out?

There are 17 locations in the UK where you can fill your hydrogen vehicle.

As against 1500 EV chargers.

Non - Merci to either option.

There are 8,380 petrol/diesel filling station in the UK

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 16:28
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Sofa Spud

The 1500 EV chargers is only part of the story as many EV owners have fast chargers installed at home. Even if they don't have fast chargers they can still charge their cars on the ordinary 3-pin socket, although that's very slow.

The Land Rover being described is a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, which is an electric vehicle. The only difference is fuel cell makes its electricity on the go whereas a battery releases previously stored electrical energy from a) when the car was charged and b) recovered through regenerative braking.

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 22:15
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - alan1302

But where is the hydrogen going to come from when your Landy runs out?

There are 17 locations in the UK where you can fill your hydrogen vehicle.

As against 1500 EV chargers.

Non - Merci to either option.

There are 8,380 petrol/diesel filling station in the UK

Maybe the could open some more Hydrogen filling stations?

I imagine the same conversations were had in the 1800's - where is all this petrol going to come from when your horseless carriage runs out?

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 23:00
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Random

According to the Autocar article. "JLR says forecasts predict 10,000 hydrogen refuelling stations could be in operation by 2030 to serve a fleet of 10 million FCEVs."

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 23:28
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - edlithgow

But where is the hydrogen going to come from when your Landy runs out?

There are 17 locations in the UK where you can fill your hydrogen vehicle.

As against 1500 EV chargers.

Non - Merci to either option.

There are 8,380 petrol/diesel filling station in the UK

Maybe the could open some more Hydrogen filling stations?

I imagine the same conversations were had in the 1800's - where is all this petrol going to come from when your horseless carriage runs out?

In the 1800's that'd be a legitimate concern, because we didn't know how things were going to turn out.

We still don't

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 23:58
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Terry W

According to ZapMap there are currently 42000 public EV connectors in 15500 locations across the UK - some locations have more than one. Number is increasing rapidly.

This excludes private facilities - offices, workplaces, home installations etc.

Hydrogen may have some advantages over battery for major applications - eg: articulated trucks, construction equipment etc due to high mileage (HGVs) and weight.

But as a fuel it is inefficient due to losses in its production, distribution, storage and finally conversion back to electricity to power a motor. Right now the technology is more expensive than battery power.

I would estimate that as an alternative to carbon fuels it is at least 15-20 years behind electric and may never catch up for general vehicle use.

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 09:34
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Andrew-T

<< Maybe they could open some more Hydrogen filling stations? I imagine the same conversations were had in the 1800's - where is all this petrol going to come from when your horseless carriage runs out? >>

Probably, but handling H2 is not quite as simple as pouring petrol into a tank. It needs tanks and tankers capable of very high pressure to contain a useful quantity of H2. And it would need major sources of H2 similar to an oil refinery - or perhaps part of, as hydrogen is made from oil at present, IIRC.

Personally I would prefer to avoid a scenario of many vehicles carrying h-p tanks of flammable gas on our roads. Horse-drawn carriages did have some advantages :-)

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 13:14
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - alan1302

<< Maybe they could open some more Hydrogen filling stations? I imagine the same conversations were had in the 1800's - where is all this petrol going to come from when your horseless carriage runs out? >>

Probably, but handling H2 is not quite as simple as pouring petrol into a tank. It needs tanks and tankers capable of very high pressure to contain a useful quantity of H2. And it would need major sources of H2 similar to an oil refinery - or perhaps part of, as hydrogen is made from oil at present, IIRC.

Personally I would prefer to avoid a scenario of many vehicles carrying h-p tanks of flammable gas on our roads. Horse-drawn carriages did have some advantages :-)

Theer are concenrns regarding using Hydrogen - but that was not what the question was - it was simply how are they going to fill up when there are so few filling station - that simply needs there to be more of them.

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 17:06
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Bolt

Theer are concenrns regarding using Hydrogen

Usually are, but what they going to do about mains gas pipes, as they are going to repurpose those pipes to supply Hydrogen to household boilers? its going to be easier to supply a car than the country with Hydrogen

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 18:24
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Andrew-T

... what they going to do about mains gas pipes, as they are going to repurpose those pipes to supply Hydrogen to household boilers? its going to be easier to supply a car than the country with Hydrogen

Any mains gas-pipes which leak natural gas will leak a lot more hydrogen, as it's a smaller molecule. And as there is no source of hydrogen (comparable with digging up petroleum) a lot of energy is needed to provide it by whatever process is thought cheapest or least polluting or climate-changing. Especially if it is to become a major contender.

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 18:25
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - madf

Theer are concenrns regarding using Hydrogen

Usually are, but what they going to do about mains gas pipes, as they are going to repurpose those pipes to supply Hydrogen to household boilers? its going to be easier to supply a car than the country with Hydrogen

!00% replacement job.

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 22:02
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - focussed

Theer are concenrns regarding using Hydrogen

Usually are, but what they going to do about mains gas pipes, as they are going to repurpose those pipes to supply Hydrogen to household boilers? its going to be easier to supply a car than the country with Hydrogen

!00% replacement job.

Maybe I'm missing something here but why would 100% of the existing gas pipes need to be replaced?

And yes i know about hydrogen embrittlement of metals which may affect existing metal gas pipes, but many mains gas pipes are plastic nowadays.

Edited by focussed on 16/06/2021 at 22:03

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 18:31
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Terry W

Every time energy is converted from one form to another there are losses.

From an energy efficiency perspective it makes no sense to waste generate electricity to make the hydrogen only to then burn it. Far more efficient is to simply generate electricity then snd it down a wire.

There are some practical issues which may be overcome at a cost - eg:

  • major industrial energy users for whom electrical power may not be a solution
  • logistics and who pays for existing users whose boilers work on natural gas not hydrogen
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Wed 16 Jun 2021 21:43
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - focussed

"Horse-drawn carriages did have some advantages"

Have you ever been on a horse and cart? The inflammable gaseous emissions from Dobbin's exhaust pipe have to be smelt to be believed!

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 23:14
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Andrew-T

Have you ever been on a horse and cart? The inflammable gaseous emissions from Dobbin's exhaust pipe have to be smelt to be believed!

Yes, but a long time ago now. Gaseous emissions dissipate quite quickly - solid ones tend to accumulate. You will recall the dire forecasts made in the Edwardian era about the depth of manure in London streets if traffic continued to expand ?

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 20:05
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Engineer Andy

Looks like this could still be an option instead of EV.

www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/land-rover-beg...r

Perhaps they should try and make their existing cars reliable first. Then they could use the money saved on numerous repairs/recalls on R&D for new drivetrain systems such as this.

Besides, as per comments in other threads, hydrogen is not green at the moment (most being 'made' via natural gas) and the tech to easily/cheaply split it off from seawater (bad idea to do so from [scarce] freshwater) is still in the very early stages of development at the smallest of scales.

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 01:02
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - snufflegrunt

As part of The U.N. Great Reset / Agenda 2030, new gas boilers are being banned. The Government, Worcester Bosch and Vailant teamed up to design hydrogen boilers that utilise as many existing parts as possible. They are working on the theory that hydrogen will be sent into existing gas mains mixed with natural gas and filtered with molecular sieves. There are some youtube videos with better explanations, but it suggests that there will be an increase in availability. Near where I live a new hydrogen plant is being built at a solar farm.

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 05:05
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - edlithgow

Some points that I seem to keep repeating, because they seem to keep coming up.

a) Relative to petrol,,which is quite dangerous. (That's why they make napalm from it) , but which yáll are used to, hydrogen is VERY safe

b) I grew up in the UK in the 50's and 60's when most homes had hydrogen as a domestic supply. Town gas was mostly hydrogen, with some carbon monoxide. It was made from coal and water.

I somehow survived.

c) The amount of (fresh) water involved was relatively small and supply limits were not a significant issue, nor would they be with electrolytic production.

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 09:26
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Andrew-T

I grew up in the UK in the 50's and 60's when most homes had hydrogen as a domestic supply. Town gas was mostly hydrogen, with some carbon monoxide. It was made from coal and water. I somehow survived.

You are ignoring the very low pressure in those gas mains compared with the very high pressure needed to carry any useful amount of hydrogen in a vehicle (or anything else). That difference is important opposite either leaks or sudden failure.

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 10:19
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Bolt

I grew up in the UK in the 50's and 60's when most homes had hydrogen as a domestic supply. Town gas was mostly hydrogen, with some carbon monoxide. It was made from coal and water. I somehow survived.

You are ignoring the very low pressure in those gas mains compared with the very high pressure needed to carry any useful amount of hydrogen in a vehicle (or anything else). That difference is important opposite either leaks or sudden failure.

Government think its possible, and so do some boiler manufacturers, as they are trialling Hydrogen boilers in Scotland, if they work out, the system could be used to charge cars or vehicles that run on Hydrogen

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 13:04
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - misar

You are ignoring the very low pressure in those gas mains compared with the very high pressure needed to carry any useful amount of hydrogen in a vehicle (or anything else). That difference is important opposite either leaks or sudden failure.

None of us can know how the green economy will turn out but I cannot understand why so many posters are obsessed with "proving" that hydrogen can never be viable.

As already pointed out it was safely distributed, stored and used all over the country (as town gas) for more than 100 years. The only high pressure hydrogen in a vehicle is inside the storage tank. Modern regulations almost certainly make that safer than the petrol tanks on most cars. Perversely, petrol may be stored at low pressure but fuel injection ensures the highly inflammable liquid is pumped at very high pressure next to a red hot engine.

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 15:14
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Andrew-T

It is one thing to store and distribute high-pressure gas safely, on specialised premises and by trained persons. I suggest it is rather more risky to make such facilities available to a motoring public, who must be given a safe way to add H2 to a vehicle at many ats pressure.

Towns gas was (and is) distributed at very low pressure, about 0.02 ats IIRC. The risks are quite different, tho I guess acceptable ways may be found. One thing that can't be changed is that as H2 is very light, a bulky (therefore heavy) pressure vessel is needed to carry a useful amount of fuel.

Edited by Andrew-T on 17/06/2021 at 15:15

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Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:45
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - edlithgow

I grew up in the UK in the 50's and 60's when most homes had hydrogen as a domestic supply. Town gas was mostly hydrogen, with some carbon monoxide. It was made from coal and water. I somehow survived.

You are ignoring the very low pressure in those gas mains compared with the very high pressure needed to carry any useful amount of hydrogen in a vehicle (or anything else). That difference is important opposite either leaks or sudden failure.

Yes, since I was addressing hydrogen distribution, one of the claimed obstacles, where these points aren't relevent.

But OK, you have a leak in your petrol Marina 1800 (as I have) and it tracks down the gutter under a whole street full of much more expensive cars, also full of weapons grade petrol, and then pools for quite a long time in the drain.

Waiting

You have a leak in your hydrogen fuelled Marina 1800 replica (soooo cool) and it floats up and away on the wind.

Catastrophic impact damage ditto, only more so. Big fireball that goes up in the air versus big fireball that comes down all over the innocent bystanders.and then sets fire to other cars, causing secondary detonations

Edited by edlithgow on 19/06/2021 at 01:31

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 18:11
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Engineer Andy

Some points that I seem to keep repeating, because they seem to keep coming up.

a) Relative to petrol,,which is quite dangerous. (That's why they make napalm from it) , but which yáll are used to, hydrogen is VERY safe

b) I grew up in the UK in the 50's and 60's when most homes had hydrogen as a domestic supply. Town gas was mostly hydrogen, with some carbon monoxide. It was made from coal and water.

I somehow survived.

c) The amount of (fresh) water involved was relatively small and supply limits were not a significant issue, nor would they be with electrolytic production.

Never said it wouldn't be unsafe (though I'm sure I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a hydrogen-fuelled vehcile if its (highly) pressurised tank gave way, especially at the scene of an accident.

Hydrogen tanks take up a significant amount of valuable space from the boot area.

Hydrogen reformed from natural gas is hardly environmentally-friendly - you may as well use natural gas directly as it then doesn't need to go through yet another process that uses up energy.

We already have a scarcity of fresh water (especially in summer), and having millions of cars (let along HGVs) using a lot more to create hydrogen would put yet more strain on the system.

As per comments on the fuel cell thread, electroytic production is an energy-hungry process, so either you use lots of grid electricty or you need vast swathes of PV panels just to create enough fuel for a few vehicles per day (see story from HJ about Toyota and the pallet lifeters at the factory).

Yes, this tech is changing, but I suspect we are 10-20 years away from it even becoming viable on a larger scale, plus the cost/time to implement it, including, as I think would be likely, the desalination systems for using seawater instead of fresh water and storage of the hydrogen (which needs lots of electricity and/or space, both which are in short supply.

The industry was making big noises 10-15 years ago about fuel cells tech, and we've barely moved on in that time. They do this often to big-up the chances of new tech being a success in order to get grant funding from governments, other agencies and investors, plus tax breaks.

I would be sceptical about it being viable at all commercially for all until nearer to 2040 or likely 2050, not because of the tech in the cars, but because of the infrastructure and economic implcations of going too soon to scale it up (as I fear governments and industry are doing for EVs), just to virtue-signal their fake green crendials to all and sundry.

To add some extra information, watch this video from Engineering Explained's Jason:

youtu.be/3IPR50-soNA

The last 5-6 minutes on 'green' hydrogen production are quite telling, especially given the source of the information he's quoting.

Edited by Engineer Andy on 17/06/2021 at 19:02

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 15:19
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Sulphur Man

I'm going to call marketing BS on this. JLR will do anything to keep the Defender forefront.

The Defender is no stunning success. Launched with 4-cyl diesel engines, which were then wholesale replaced within 6 months by 6-cyl ones is absolutely no way to sell a 'premium' vehicle to discerning customers. It reeks of a mad rush to get an unfinished product to market.

It's a style-led car, carrying a hefty kerbweight with tax-baitingly bad emissions, sub-30s real world mpg, and no performance payback to soften the blow.

Of course it can do the business off road, but that utility market is the preserve of Japanese pick-ups which are cheaper to buy and run, for those that rely on such a car for their living.

If the Ineos Grenadier is half as good as it looks, JLR will be in deep trouble, deeper than they are now.

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Fri 18 Jun 2021 16:23
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - sammy1

Ineos have linked up with Hyundai to make a hydrogen fuel cell Grenadier in France. Apparently Ratcliffes refineries can produce Hydrogen in large quantities for distribution to existing fuel retailers. It appears all the major motor manufactures are heavily into Hydrogen research to convert H to electric via fuel cells As usual the prices of the first cars will be off the scale... It looks as though we will soon have two types of EVs to take us forward after 2030.

With all the water coming out of the tail pipes of cars in the future will the M1 be constantly wet or humidity increase? The water has to go somewhere I suppose. Any chemists out there know how much water is generated from say 50kg hydrogen when electric is generated by a fuel cell burning H an O? There seems bound to be some negatives to the environment sea levels are supposedly rising, rainfall increasing so do we need more water!

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Fri 18 Jun 2021 16:42
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - corax

There seems bound to be some negatives to the environment sea levels are supposedly rising, rainfall increasing so do we need more water!

I'd rather have water vapour than a constant dark yellow band of smog on the horizon.

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 01:27
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - edlithgow

There seems bound to be some negatives to the environment sea levels are supposedly rising, rainfall increasing so do we need more water!

I'd rather have water vapour than a constant dark yellow band of smog on the horizon.

To state the bleedin obvious again, you get water from IC engines as well. Its just dirty water.

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 07:52
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Bolt

There seems bound to be some negatives to the environment sea levels are supposedly rising, rainfall increasing so do we need more water!

I'd rather have water vapour than a constant dark yellow band of smog on the horizon.

To state the bleedin obvious again, you get water from IC engines as well. Its just dirty water.

Funny how not many notice cars with runny exhausts, I was flashed on the A20 last year and pulled into BP garage thinking an unmarked police car was pulling me, turned out a concerned driver thought I had something wrong with car

I asked why, and he said there was a lot of water pouring out the exhaust...I thanked him for the warning but said its normal and proves the cat is working ok

After a quick discussion on the exhaust he said he didnt know thats how they worked and drove off

You never know LR may do a better job of building a hydrogen motor than expected ....

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Sun 20 Jun 2021 01:27
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - edlithgow

I asked why, and he said there was a lot of water pouring out the exhaust...I thanked him for the warning but said its normal and proves the cat is working ok

Don't think it does. It just shows your exhaust is below the condensation temperature of the water vapour produced by combustion.

A small proportion of that water vapour is probably due to unburned hydrocarbons being "burned " in the catalyst, but if the catalyst is "cooking" it'd be more likely to keep the exhaust above the dew point.

I've never had a catalyst, but exhaust dribble on a cold engine was normal in the UK in winter. Here I;ve hardly evet noticed it, because the ambient temperatures are higher. Hopefully my exhaust will last longer as a result

(Plus I put aluminium and portland cement in the exhaust downpipe when I get the chance)

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 09:31
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Andrew-T

<< To state the bleedin obvious again, you get water from IC engines as well. Its just dirty water. >>

Well yes, but you also get double the weight of CO2, which we are trying to avoid .....

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 13:55
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - corax

I'd rather have water vapour than a constant dark yellow band of smog on the horizon.

To state the bleedin obvious again, you get water from IC engines as well. Its just dirty water.

Thanks for pointing that out. I had no idea.

Edited by corax on 19/06/2021 at 14:00

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Fri 18 Jun 2021 17:41
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Andrew-T

Any chemists out there know how much water is generated from say 50kg hydrogen when electric is generated by a fuel cell burning H and O?

As a molecule of water weighs 9 times a molecule of H2, the product should be 450kg of water - almost half a ton. But it will occupy much less space :-)

Perhaps we will return to an era of fog ?

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Fri 18 Jun 2021 18:39
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Terry W

Concerns over water consumption, wet roads and fog from hydrogen as a fuel are somewhat overstated. I kg of hydrogen has approx 34kwh of energy - approx 3X that of diesel and sufficient to power the average car 70-100 miles.

1kg of hydrogen combines with 9kg of oxygen to make 10 litres of water from the tailpipe over 100miles. More a dripping tap, than a flood!

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 08:04
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Bolt

Concerns over water consumption, wet roads and fog from hydrogen as a fuel are somewhat overstated. I kg of hydrogen has approx 34kwh of energy - approx 3X that of diesel and sufficient to power the average car 70-100 miles.

1kg of hydrogen combines with 9kg of oxygen to make 10 litres of water from the tailpipe over 100miles. More a dripping tap, than a flood!

As certain companies have said hydrogen fuel cell is more favorable than all battery electric when you consider mileage you get from batteries maybe up to 200 when hydrogen can get up to 3 or 4 x that distance, and when battery size is considered you would need larger trailers and cost a fortune in transport expenses.

And safer than batteries

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 09:34
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Andrew-T

<< And safer than batteries >>

Hmmm, that's a difficult comparison. They both have rather different hazards I think.

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 09:55
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Bolt

<< And safer than batteries >>

Hmmm, that's a difficult comparison. They both have rather different hazards I think.

Anything in life is a hazard, just depends on what risks you are prepared to take, even if it is minimal. that includes petrol and diesel but they have been around so long no one realy takes any notice of the dangers just filling up, and likely hydrogen is better sealed and less likely to blow than petrol vapour.

But then no one has to buy any of them if they are that worried about them!!

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 14:06
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Terry W

Once loaded into a vehicle in high pressure tanks I have no doubt that hydrogen can outperform batteries on range, and probably match them in terms of safety.

I can accept that if produced in sufficient volumes fuel cell technologies may compete on cost with battery EVs - but they are far more expensive at present.

Getting H2 into the vehicle in the first place is the bit that does not work so well.

  • most is produced using natural gas - not very green
  • H2 could be a by-product of green electricity if supply exceeds demand, but involves large conversion losses and high storage costs.
  • distribution in tanks and use in vehicles needs very high pressures - the pressure vessels themselves are costly and pressurisation is a major energy draw

If range is the only criteria driving power train selection then hydrogen may be a contender if carbon based fuels are unacceptable. Right now it is not a contender save for some specialist applications.

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 15:13
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Bolt

Once loaded into a vehicle in high pressure tanks I have no doubt that hydrogen can outperform batteries on range, and probably match them in terms of safety.

I can accept that if produced in sufficient volumes fuel cell technologies may compete on cost with battery EVs - but they are far more expensive at present.

Getting H2 into the vehicle in the first place is the bit that does not work so well.

  • most is produced using natural gas - not very green
  • H2 could be a by-product of green electricity if supply exceeds demand, but involves large conversion losses and high storage costs.
  • distribution in tanks and use in vehicles needs very high pressures - the pressure vessels themselves are costly and pressurisation is a major energy draw

If range is the only criteria driving power train selection then hydrogen may be a contender if carbon based fuels are unacceptable. Right now it is not a contender save for some specialist applications.

We seem to be going round in circles, your explanation has been mentioned time and time again by various people.

If it was not viable in the future, I doubt it would be experimented with, and as mentioned certain companies are looking into the use of, and producing Hydrogen for HGVs for reasons already mentioned.

which if the gas main is re`used for Hydrogen use for Boilers, could be used to charge cars and HGVs.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out, but realy cannot see HGVs travelling the country with a load of batteries on board to power it, unless batteries become small enough and powerfull enough to cancel out using Hydrogen, the future is going to be very interesting imo...

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 15:56
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - sammy1

There are some interesting videos on U tube concerning hydrogen supply and demonstrating the refuelling of a fuel cell vehicles. I did not know that on some designs you can switch from petrol to hydrogen driving the same car, similar to LPG so your ICE engine might live on if only to be run on hydrogen

A strongly suspect that the reason companies are not rushing digging up roads and pavements to supply EV chargers is the rapid development of hydrogen fuel cell technology although we will probably end up with both and customers choosing whatever is practical for them

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 15:56
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Andrew-T

Getting H2 into the vehicle in the first place is the bit that does not work so well.

Someone must have calculated the size of tank needed to carry enough H2 to drive a car (say) 200 miles, at what pressure, and how much high-tensile metal would be needed to contain that pressure. Anyone know the numbers, and do they add up ?

And if H2 were distributed in the existing main (very low pressure) system, householders would need a high-pressure pump, and the associated safe connections, to get it into a vehicle. Sounds a rather futuristic scenario to me.

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 17:38
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Bolt

And if H2 were distributed in the existing main (very low pressure) system, householders would need a high-pressure pump, and the associated safe connections, to get it into a vehicle. Sounds a rather futuristic scenario to me.

It will Probably need one to supply the boiler so it could be split between the two without any problems, it cannot be any harder than having an EV charger outside the house imo....

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 18:04
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Andrew-T

<< Someone must have calculated the size of tank needed to carry enough H2 to drive a car (say) 200 miles, at what pressure, and how much high-tensile metal would be needed to contain that pressure. Anyone know the numbers, and do they add up ? >>

I have done a calculation on the back of an envelope. Using Terry-W's figure above,

1 kg H2 should move a car 70-100 miles - let's say 80, so 2½ kg should do 200 miles.

2 grams H2 at normal temp and pressure occupies 22.4 litres, so a typical 56-litre petrol tank would hold about 5 grams.

So to get 200 miles from a normal-sized tank the gas would need to be at 2500 / 5 or 500 atmospheres. Are we happy with that ?

Can't answer the question about the tank's weight.

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 18:56
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - misar

No need for back of the envelope calculations as there are already several hydrogen fuel cell cars on the road. They can be purchased and are normal, viable transport provided you are based near to one of the few UK filling stations. The tanks are no larger than the EV batteries needed to give similar range and being made of plastic composites they are considerably lighter.

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 20:40
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - sammy1

""""""

2 grams H2 at normal temp and pressure occupies 22.4 litres, so a typical 56-litre petrol tank would hold about 5 grams.

So to get 200 miles from a normal-sized tank the gas would need to be at 2500 / 5 or 500 atmospheres. Are we happy with that ?""""

One distribution company says the Hydrogen is stored at 700bar and dispensed at 300bar or 700bar depending on requirement from same storage source. It is delivered in Kg under pressure just like a petrol pump but obviously more robust and sealed by special valves. What this means in terms of range or tank required to hold it II have yet to learn, even 300 bar is a lot of pressure

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 20:49
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Terry W

The size of the H2 tanks is not an issue, nor is the fact they need to work at 5-10000 PSI. Both are proven.

If H2 is supplied at low pressure through the gas main as suggested, it will need to be compressed to get in the tank. Tanks to store 1kg compressed H2 are currently ~£1000 although this could fall if produced in volume.

Machines to actually compress the H2 are not cheap. The unit cost would depend on whether it was on a domestic basis or in garage forecourts.

Safety is an issue - petrol may be pumped from forecourt tanks generally at fairly low pressures. Leaking valves or pumps may be evident before much has been released.

Managing gases at 10000PSI means that any leak could result in a rapid catastrophic explosion before any problem was evident.

None of this is an absolute barrier, but simply supports my view that H2 for general transport use is logistically at least couple of decades behind batteries. It is just speculation whether it will catch up

If were I a car manufacturer I may invest in the technology - it may have specialist transport applications, and ensures that I at least have a "foot in the door" .

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 23:05
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - alan1302

If were I a car manufacturer I may invest in the technology - it may have specialist transport applications, and ensures that I at least have a "foot in the door" .

I expect that is why Land Rover are looking at it - they build cars that are often off road and away from chargers or electricity so are looking at alternatives.

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 23:32
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - Bolt

If were I a car manufacturer I may invest in the technology - it may have specialist transport applications, and ensures that I at least have a "foot in the door" .

I expect that is why Land Rover are looking at it - they build cars that are often off road and away from chargers or electricity so are looking at alternatives.

Honda Cancels Clarity Plug-in Hybrid, Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles | Kelley Blue Book (kbb.com)

link is ok I have read it.

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Sun 20 Jun 2021 01:45
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - edlithgow

RE the "

  • most is produced using natural gas - not very green

objection, this is certainly true. I understand there is a proposal to recover the CO2 produced from steam reformation of natural gas, and store it underground.

As fossil fuels become exhausted, there is going to be a lot of empty underground storage capacity which already has pipework.

In fact CO2 is already used to enhance oil and gas recovery so this gives an additional "green" fig leaf incentive for that

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Sun 20 Jun 2021 06:45
Land Rover on the hydrogen trail - madf

Toyota Mirai:

Tank capacity 122.4L

Range "up to 342Miles"

Weight 1850Kg

From Toyota brochure:

www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/new-mirai/

[link edited as original one was pointing to a local drive]

Edited by Xileno on 20/06/2021 at 08:02

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