Bicycle and e-scooter registration

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Mon 14 Jun 2021 14:11
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - bathtub tom

Mr loophole, Nick Freeman was on radio 4 Today programme advocating the registration of bikes and e-scooters: road.cc/content/news/mr-loophole-posts-petition-ca...7

He's initiated a petition on the government website: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/585474

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Mon 14 Jun 2021 14:33
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - daveyjp

This story is more a reflection on how desperate R4 have become to fill airtime.

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Mon 14 Jun 2021 16:03
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Theophilus

I have an e-Foldi mobility scooter (top speed 8mph!) which I registered with the DVLA when I bought it - they sent me a V5 document and a registration number, but I am not required to have plates made up displaying the reg number - nor would there be any obvious mounting points either front or rear!

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Mon 14 Jun 2021 16:05
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

This story is more a reflection on how desperate R4 have become to fill airtime.

Really?

Freeman has launched a petition on the government website which may get enough signatures for issue to be considered for a Commons debate. Even as a committed cyclist I can see why that might be news - at least its a diversion from G8, the Pandemic and Brexit.

The idea, that all cyclists should have to wear a tabard with a 'registration number' is a total non starter. It falls at the first hurdle; practicality and compliance.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 14/06/2021 at 16:19

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 13:00
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Sofa Spud

Pullover tied round shoulders as "power casual" is funny.

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 18:54
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Warning

There are multiple issues.

Firstly, cycling campaign groups are hostile to motorists. They don't want any motor vehicles on the road. They want entire roads given over to cyclists. This has already happened in places and with little consultation with other roads users. Some lanes given over to cyclist.

Every time there is a cycling fatality, the cycling community want the driver to go to prison. However, the same cycling groups, will not advocate compulsory cycle training. HGV drivers have blind spots, but without training, many cyclists are unaware. Nor do they advocate wearing helmets.

When motorists go through a red light, it is likely they would be fined and possibly even loose their my driver license. However, a cyclist can jump a red light multiple times a day and never face any consequences. They don't have any way to identify them. Many of these cyclists are routinely reporting drivers for road vioaltions, but they seem cock-eyed, when cyclist running red light.

There have been serious consequences:

Cyclist 'jumped red light and killed pedestrian Peter McCombie'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56320121




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Tue 15 Jun 2021 19:43
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

Posted in error

Edited by Bromptonaut on 15/06/2021 at 19:44

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 19:45
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

Firstly, cycling campaign groups are hostile to motorists. They don't want any motor vehicles on the road. They want entire roads given over to cyclists. This has already happened in places and with little consultation with other roads users. Some lanes given over to cyclist.

Which cycling campaign group in particular wants all motor vehicles off the road?

Every time there is a cycling fatality, the cycling community want the driver to go to prison. However, the same cycling groups, will not advocate compulsory cycle training. HGV drivers have blind spots, but without training, many cyclists are unaware. Nor do they advocate wearing helmets.

If the driver, in charge of a vehicle with a mass in the tens of tons, is to blame and the offence is Death by Dangerous then damn right prison should be on the agenda. What good do you think compulsory training would do? Car drivers are not exactly an advert for the process are they. Helmets are of limited value. None if you're hit by an HGV

When motorists go through a red light, it is likely they would be fined and possibly even loose their my driver license. However, a cyclist can jump a red light multiple times a day and never face any consequences. They don't have any way to identify them. Many of these cyclists are routinely reporting drivers for road violations, but they seem cock-eyed, when cyclist running red light.

Fine or lose their licence? Possibly for multiple/egregious offenders but most will get sent on a driver improvement course. As with the lorries there's a quantum difference in mass between a car and a bike; the consequences are much more likely to be fatal or life changing. That cyclists report motorists is just whataboutery.

There have been serious consequences:

Cyclist 'jumped red light and killed pedestrian Peter McCombie'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56320121

No cyclist is defending hit/run stuff like that.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 15/06/2021 at 19:52

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 21:25
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - sammy1

It is a good thing where cyclists are largely separated from vehicles. It is a pity that pedestrians are not offered the same protection from cyclists and now the dreaded e scooter both if which are illegal on pavements and shopping malls. Cyclists should be made to wear helmets and have some form of insurance in the 21st century. Many easily travel at 20mph + and if they are reckless enough to injure somebody then some sort of redress should be available to the injured party as with car insurance

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 21:42
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

Cyclists should be made to wear helmets and have some form of insurance in the 21st century. Many easily travel at 20mph + and if they are reckless enough to injure somebody then some sort of redress should be available to the injured party as with car insurance

How does wearing a helmet affect their chances of injuring others?

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 10:30
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Manatee

>>Firstly, cycling campaign groups are hostile to motorists

Hilarious in the context of an outpouring of hatred towards cyclists.

There will always be exceptions but bikes don't hurt people in general, and their riders are mostly well aware of their own vulnerability.

Most cyclists are also drivers would be my guess, especially the "MAMILs" who seem to attract such disapprobation.

Relax and consider how you can contribute to your own and others' safety, don't waste your time hating and fuming, you'll be a lot happier.

The only person who suffers when you raise yourown blood pressure is you, unless anger and impatience lead to an accident.

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Fri 18 Jun 2021 15:30
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Warning

Firstly, cycling campaign groups are hostile to motorists. They don't want any motor vehicles on the road. They want entire roads given over to cyclists. This has already happened in places and with little consultation with other roads users. Some lanes given over to cyclist.


I don't wish to name the group(s). However, they and their supporters are loud and active on social media. They have strong views.

This is being done in the guise of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods or Liveable Neighbourhoods :

Oxford has a consultation on their proposed LTN:

https://consultations.oxfordshire.gov.uk/Eastoxfordltn/consultationHome

A few articles :
www.sustrans.org.uk/our-blog/get-active/2020/in-yo...d

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/20/the-new-road-rage-bitter-rows-break-out-over-uks-low-traffic-neighbourhoods

www.motoringresearch.com/advice/low-traffic-neighb.../



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Fri 18 Jun 2021 15:44
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

I don't wish to name the group(s). However, they and their supporters are loud and active on social media. They have strong views.

This is being done in the guise of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods or Liveable Neighbourhoods :

The people driving Low Traffic Neighbourhoods are residents of the roads concerned. The entire road is given over to pedestrians and local residents who may or may not cycle. They are though far more likely to cycle once the rat running is stopped. Of course cycling groups are in favour of such things but to suggest cycling bodies you cannot or will not name are the force behind the whole thing is nonsense. There's a difference between loud voices on Social Media, including cycling forums, and actual bodies like Cycling UK, London Cycling Capaign etc that put themselves forward as cycling's spokespeople (see what I did there).

I note from various sources that there's a possible 'democratic deficit' in Councils setting up Liveable Neighbourhoods. They're not going through proper process and/or using Covid related stuff as a 'cover'. If that is the case then then action may be needed at he Councils' meetings, at the ballot box and if necessary in the courts. I know that costs but if there's a strong local issue then crowdfunding might be possible.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 18/06/2021 at 16:09

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 22:42
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Warning

Cyclist fits air horn on bike to get pedestrians out of his way

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sFKRFLsraU

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 06:09
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut
Cyclist fits air horn on bike to get pedestrians out of his way

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sFKRFLsraU

So it sounds like a vehicle horn and makes 'jaywalking' pedestrians scatter.

Neither this nor the 'wheelies on BMX' vid stand up your assertion about cycling pressure groups.

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 11:52
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Engineer Andy
Cyclist fits air horn on bike to get pedestrians out of his way

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sFKRFLsraU

So it sounds like a vehicle horn and makes 'jaywalking' pedestrians scatter.

Neither this nor the 'wheelies on BMX' vid stand up your assertion about cycling pressure groups.

I think Brompt that you have to take into account that there are a reasonable minority of cyclists who do not obey the Highway Code and appear to revel in doing so.

I'm not excusing the often reckless actions of car, van and HGV drivers, but I've seen several instances of very poor behaviour by cyclings, but whilst driving, out cycling and as a pedestrian in many types of location.

Examples (and that happen often):

1. The commuter or courier cyclist (yes folks, there are some of these [I've seen them in London]) cycling at great speed on the pavement (that isn't designated cycle lanes, shared or otherwise), the wrong way down one-way streets, not stopping for red lights and going straight through pedestrian crossings whilst (legitimately) in use, weaving in traffic around vehicles in use (and often at speed), not signalling, being agressive to pedestrians and other road users.

2. The 'Team Sky' brigade of lycra-wearing people on weekends/in holiday areas thinking they are as skilled as the yellow jersey wearer, whilst riding several cycles abrest/in large groups, blocking the road and not pulling over to allow other vehicles to pass, but often fast enough and reckless enough to be a danger to pedestrians, horses/riders and dogs also out exercising.

I've seen the latter a lot on holiday (sometimes whilst cycling myself) on shared paths - despite speed limits being in place, many cyclists go way too fast, weaving around, etc.

Yes, responsible cyclists like us are given a bad name by these oiks, but they do exist, and are (sadly) more common than people may care to admit. I personally don't know of any official cyclist groups that are avowed anti-car, etc, but I suspect there are some, including equivalent forums to this where opinion appears to be skewed against other road users because of personal experiences, but glosses over the actions of the less responsible, who likely won't be members of such forums.

I personally believe there are significant faults on both sides, and think that some form of cycle (and for e-scooters and horses) registration scheme for a nominal one-off fee (no insurance though) is needed so people can report cases of poor behaviour.

It could be done at a very cheap price for the young at least via school 'cycling proficiency' schemes, so people keep their registration disc (like their NHS numbercard) for life and just transfer it to whatever bike they are using that day. I realise that policing the system (and fraud, equivalent of number plate cloning) would likely be somewhat of an issue, but I'm sure some way to reduce that issue could be found.

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 15:20
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

I think Brompt that you have to take into account that there are a reasonable minority of cyclists who do not obey the Highway Code and appear to revel in doing so.

I agree there is a minority, in some places a significant minority, who do not obey the Highway Code albeit a large chunk is advice not direction. Some go further and break the law - eg shooting red lights.

I've no time for pavement riders, red light jumpers etc. I found riding on the road in London a good deal safer than doing so in Northampton. I had defined routes, on road or cycle lane to my own office and those I visited regularly. Some legitimately used one way streets in contra flow. It's quicker to use the road and behave like a vehicle than faff on the pavement. Keep out from the kerb to improve visibility and overtake on the outside of queues. Most other commuters appeared to do the same. I rarely saw people riding at speed on pavements; not worthwhile.

If you're talking a group of 'fast boys' in lycra be careful what you wish for. A 'peloton' of say 10 with less groundprint then a car/caravan are a lot easier to overtake then if they're strung out in single file on a country road. Two abreast and single up if it's busy is advice not law. If they're doing 20mph+ then it's really not too much of an imposition to tuck in behind until a pass is safe; like you would with a tractor. Trying to get a group into a side turn to allow cars to pass is quite difficult and a test of rider's skill handling their bikes in a group.

I also rarely see riders at warp speed on shared paths. If you hit a stray pedestrian you'll be in a mess too. The surfacing of Sustrans type paths with crushed stone seriously limits speeds too as well as the type of bikes that can actually handle that surface. Not suitable for a tourer or roadbike in 700c*<32 or the 27" equivalents.

I simply don't think cyclists are that big a problem. Where they are, like the BMX boys in Warning's You Tube the police have adequate powers to deal. The idea that Tabards, which can be swapped, dropped or faked will be some sort of magic bullet is for the birds.

I loved the Air Horn. Some of that was on my old commute ground round Bloomsbury, Covent Garden and Legal London. Bells and shouts have little effect when folks have earphones/loud music.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 16/06/2021 at 17:07

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 20:01
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Engineer Andy
I simply don't think cyclists are that big a problem. Where they are, like the BMX boys in Warning's You Tube the police have adequate powers to deal. The idea that Tabards, which can be swapped, dropped or faked will be some sort of magic bullet is for the birds.

I loved the Air Horn. Some of that was on my old commute ground round Bloomsbury, Covent Garden and Legal London. Bells and shouts have little effect when folks have earphones/loud music.

I've walked in those areas of London, as well as in the 'engineering consultants village' between Kings Cross, Liverpool St stations and The Thames, and have many incidents to remember of cyclists who were certainly not behaving - just as many as car, van and HGV including bus) drivers.

I remember on one occasion that a cycle courier rode the wrong way up Tottenham Court Road (one way street for those not in the know) - something I've seen many a time in London - went straight through the pedestrain crossing (when in use) at Goodge St, knocking over one of them, then remonstrating with them and others.

A former boss of mine who I always saw travelling at great speed on his e-Brompton back to KX station eventually paid the price when he came acropper using it to go to a meeting because he couldn't avoid a pothole/sunked gully, went over the handlebars at the very busy/dangerous junction of Charing Cross Road and Shaftsbury Ave, breaking his arm and suffering from (another) concussion (apparenbtly this wasn't his first). TBH he was lucky not to have been killed. Not uncommon taht sort of reckless behavoir.

Red-light jumping at great speed is very common round that way in recent years. I regularly see similar things in Cambridge, which is very bike friendly in comparison to most towns and cities.

As I said before, the problems lie with all road users, not just one type. It's no good closing our eyes to it because we happen to belong to one group of road users (including pedestrians) being put in the spotlight.

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 20:54
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

I've walked in those areas of London, as well as in the 'engineering consultants village' between Kings Cross, Liverpool St stations and The Thames, and have many incidents to remember of cyclists who were certainly not behaving - just as many as car, van and HGV including bus) drivers.

I don't think we're far off the same page. There are certainly road users of all types who are not behaving.

Seven Dials where your ex-boss came a cropper needs respect; it was on my homebound route in my final Civil Service months based at Tothill St/Petty France. It's a multiway light controlled junction, even if you know the light timings off patt it's not a place for playing red light bingo. Cycling round there needs the biking equivalent of Advanced Driving defensive observation etc. I'd cavil at terms like dangerous or reckless but a moment's lack of attention and you can be off.

The point of this thread is not our individual perceptions of risk, which will vary, but whether tabards like those worn at netball would help make things safer.

I am not remotely convinced, short of a Copper/Enforcement Officer on every corner, that they would make any difference at all.

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 12:37
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Warning

I personally believe there are significant faults on both sides, and think that some form of cycle (and for e-scooters and horses) registration scheme for a nominal one-off fee (no insurance though) is needed so people can report cases of poor behaviour.

I changed my mind about insurance, when I read about this. A cyclist was ordered to pay compensation to a pedestrian he crashed into as she cross the road while looking at her mobile phone. She suffered damage to her front teeth and facial scars. Apparently, he was facing legal costs of £100,000....

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/fund-for-cyclist-who-hi...l

With more cyclist on shared pedestrian roads... There is more chance of a collision.

Electric cars have "noise" added to them to be audible, but cycles and e-scooters are silent....

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 12:51
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

I changed my mind about insurance, when I read about this. A cyclist was ordered to pay compensation to a pedestrian he crashed into as she cross the road while looking at her mobile phone. She suffered damage to her front teeth and facial scars. Apparently, he was facing legal costs of £100,000....


www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/fund-for-cyclist-who-hi...l

Third party insurance is a pretty reasonable cost as part of membership of outfits like Cycling UK, British Cycling or the London Cycling Campaign. It's also often an add on to domestic insurance.

As with car collisions, damage claims where a vehicle is hit are costly but, given the relatively limited damage a bike can do to a car, probably manageable.

Personal Injury is in another league. The case mentioned was a relatively low value claim for 'reparable' damage and discounted for the defendant's contributory negligence. One questions whether the costs incurred were proportionate. Still enough to potentially ruin the guy.

If you're the liable party for an albeit freak cycle accident where you put somebody in need of lifetime care or destroy the promising career of a potential high earner you could face damages of millions.

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 22:59
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Warning

Riders hit the Streets of London......

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IChlWXtx6J8

This is LitteHarry. He has 700,000 YouTube subscribers!. He has sponsors too.

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Tue 15 Jun 2021 23:29
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - sammy1

""How does wearing a helmet affect their chances of injuring others?""

Who said that? or how do you deduce that, deleted [no personal remarks please]

Edited by Xileno on 16/06/2021 at 06:33

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 06:18
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

""How does wearing a helmet affect their chances of injuring others?""

Who said that? or how do you deduce that, deleted [no personal remarks please]

You conflated helmet compulsion with insurance and the risk of bikes at 20mph+. I was trying to understand your logic.

FWIW this 61yo cyclist doesn't use a helmet. I like the feel of the wind in my hair and dont like being sweaty under a helmet when I stop. Any helmet I've tried has interfered with my peripheral vision and, at least subliminally, my hearing. I'd have to take my glasses off every time I don/remove the helmet and would find myself constantly fiddling with straps that irritate my skin.

And while I was commuting to London I'd have left three or four a year on trains.

I spent 8 years of my life working with people under the Court of Protection. A number of course had life changing head injuries. Cars and work featured big time. Being a drunk pedestrian is more risky than you think. Only one was on a bike; a drunk riding home while pedalling on his insteps. Given the speed of the car that hit him from behind a helmet would not havehelped.

Edited by Xileno on 16/06/2021 at 06:36

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 06:06
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

Riders hit the Streets of London......

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IChlWXtx6J8

This is LitteHarry. He has 700,000 YouTube subscribers!. He has sponsors too.

Clearly offences are being committed and in some frames Police are involved.

How would compulsory tabards stop this?

No different to nutters doing wheelies on motorbikes or stunts in souped up cars.

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 12:01
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - sammy1

The issue of cyclists wearing crash helmets and their possibly colliding with pedestrians are totally separate.

It was recognised as long ago as 1973 when crash helmets became law for motorcyclists who are considerable more vulnerable as indeed are cyclists on todays roads. If you are injured in an accident you can survive broken bones a lot more than a bang on the head. Some scoff at the health and safety brigade but their policies are proven to save lives. Car seat belts are another example of people surviving accidents that would otherwise prove fatal.

It is a good thing I think that todays parents are kitting their youngsters out with helmets on bikes and scooters even though the odds of injury are small. It only takes one accident to ruin ones life and that's why I think that bikes and pedestrians should not be mixed to protect the more vulnerable being hit by something moving much faster than them.

Professional cyclists have to wear helmets I wonder why?

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 14:56
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

Professional cyclists have to wear helmets I wonder why?

If you look at the numbers killed/seriously injured on the professional circuit (including the Grand Tours) you'll find that helmet compulsion made no difference to the numbers. Somewhere on the net there's a graph showing cumulative KSI over 30+ years. The numbers were always very low and the graph's line moved not one jot.

One of the most evocative cycling photographs is of the French rider Laurent Fignon descending a pass at speed with his trademark pony tail streaming behind.

He died in his bed of bowel cancer.

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Wed 16 Jun 2021 22:44
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - focussed

All this talk of push-bikes gives me an opportunity to bore you all to death with the preparations for the TDF passing through our little town.

Where we are in our little Brittany small town and commune in north-west france, preparations are in hand to welcome the razzmatazz and riders of the Tour de France, third stage (Lorient to Pontivy) it will actually pass the end of the road leading from us to the town about a couple of kilometres from us.

We went to watch it before at a small town about 20 km from us a few years ago, and the whole event and the support from the locals is amazing.

All the local roads of the route will be closed on the day of Le Tour from 14.00 to 17.00.

Tried to get to our local recycling centre ( dechetterie) today but due to preparations for le Tour (our mayor and his staff were probably polishing the kerbstones) roads are closed into the town, so we had to take to the unmade mud and gravel back roads (chemins) in our trusty 4wd L200 truck.

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 10:51
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bolt

It is a good thing I think that todays parents are kitting their youngsters out with helmets on bikes and scooters even though the odds of injury are small.

Depends on area I think as around my neck of the woods the amount of youngsters wearing safety gear is almost zero, and very often see two to three riding an e scooter and often on bikes as well, so not all parents are safety conscious, in fact they don`t seem to care one bit....

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 11:17
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

It is a good thing I think that todays parents are kitting their youngsters out with helmets on bikes and scooters even though the odds of injury are small.

Helmets are probably a good idea for children, particularly if they're getting adventurous off road.

As an adult I'd rather take my own risks. The gain from a bike helmet is nothing like that from a Motorcyclist's 'skid lid' or seat belts in a car.

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 12:30
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - sammy1

""As an adult I'd rather take my own risks. The gain from a bike helmet is nothing like that from a Motorcyclist's 'skid lid' or seat belts in a car. """"

Yes I suppose the only gain is that you get knocked of the bike and whack your head! Wear a helmet, help save the NHS.

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 13:01
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

Yes I suppose the only gain is that you get knocked of the bike and whack your head! Wear a helmet, help save the NHS.

A helmet might reduce the severity of a mild head injury or prevent a nasty knock with scalp lacerations etc and concussion. It's unlikely to prevent the sort of injury that changes your life.

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 18:27
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Engineer Andy

Yes I suppose the only gain is that you get knocked of the bike and whack your head! Wear a helmet, help save the NHS.

A helmet might reduce the severity of a mild head injury or prevent a nasty knock with scalp lacerations etc and concussion. It's unlikely to prevent the sort of injury that changes your life.

I suspect that they're more for people going at slow speed or the occasional (holiday) cyclist who falls off when trying to dismount. :-)

I've always used (the more substanial helmets rather than the 'racing' ones with all the holes/gaps, as they look like they could barely give any protection at all.

I former colleague suffered from a collapsed/puncter lung (I can't remember which - it was nearly 15 years ago now) when he came acropper trying to navigate a 'bomb hole' on an off-road trail. I do remember another colleague relaying the tail, saying he couldn't stop laughing when it happened, as the other didn't know about his lung problem (he did have to go to hospital) until after he tried to drive home.

I worst I ever suffered was cuts and bruises as a kid after foolishly trying out my sister's bike for a dare, not realising it (for some reason) had the brake levers attached to the opposite wheels, whereby I braked quite hard and went over the handlebars due to the front brake being used in error.

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Fri 18 Jun 2021 01:10
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - focussed

Yes I suppose the only gain is that you get knocked of the bike and whack your head! Wear a helmet, help save the NHS.

A helmet might reduce the severity of a mild head injury or prevent a nasty knock with scalp lacerations etc and concussion. It's unlikely to prevent the sort of injury that changes your life.

If you fall off a push bike and hit your head on a kerb you are likely to end up brain damaged or worse. If you do the same with a decent helmet you may just end up with a headache. It's all down to the deceleration of your brain within the skull at the point of impact, Slowing it down by wearing a helmet means you may survive by the helmet deforming to absorb the forces.

Motorcyclists and horse riders wear helmets for the same reason, why do cyclists object?

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Fri 18 Jun 2021 08:13
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

If you fall of a bike and hit your head on a kerb you are likely to end up brain damaged or worse. If you do the same with a decent helmet you may just end up with a headache. It's all down to the deceleration of your brain within the skull at the point of impact, Slowing it down by wearing a helmet means you may survive by the helmet deforming to absorb the forces.

Motorcyclists and horse riders wear helmets for the same reason, why do cyclists object?

If you fall from standing and bang your head on the kerb you can get a severe head injury. It's the mis-chance of how the victim falls that turns a 'handbags' scrap outside a pub from ABH to Manslaughter.

The schoolgirl who died in one of the high profile 'death by cycling' cases cracked her head on the kerb.

It's a long way down off a horse even without the forward motion of a gallop in the mix. Motorbikes are not pedal cycles, faster, heavier and far more energy in the event of an 'off'.

I'm not anti-helmet, if you want to wear one that's fine. I don't like wearing one for reasons already spelled out in this thread. I've assessed the risks and decided that while the consequence of a bad off is death or life changing injury the probability of something that severe is low enough for me to live with it.

When I did the London to Brighton crammed onto suburban London roads with thousands of others, most with little/no experience of riding in groups, I chose to don one.

Took it off once we'd spread out a bit.

What rouses us is the 'Nanny knows best' mentality of helmet compulsion.

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Fri 18 Jun 2021 14:36
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Theophilus

What rouses us is the 'Nanny knows best' mentality of helmet compulsion.

Sometimes Nanny does, she can advise the feckless from her experience!

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 17:42
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - bathtub tom
The gain from a bike helmet is nothing like that from a Motorcyclist's 'skid lid'

Where's your source for that?

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 19:27
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - badbusdriver

Not sure if it is still the case, but some years ago I read that while a cycling helmet had to provide a given amount of impact protection, it was only at impact speeds of up to 15mph. So while that does (more or less) cover UK legal e-bikes, it isn't going to do much to help at the 60mph+ achieved by pro cyclists on a downhill section!.

The gain from a bike helmet is nothing like that from a Motorcyclist's 'skid lid'

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Where's your source for that?

TBH, you only need to look at them.

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 21:18
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

TBH, you only need to look at them.

Sums it up.

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 23:18
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - bathtub tom

TBH, you only need to look at them.

Sums it up.

No source then?

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 23:18
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - bathtub tom

TBH, you only need to look at them.

I have both and while the cycling helmet has thicker, softer material, I can't see what you're referring to.

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Sun 20 Jun 2021 11:26
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

I have both and while the cycling helmet has thicker, softer material, I can't see what you're referring to.

Other than perhaps making a point over my habit of asking for sources/evidence I'm genuinely struggling with where you're coming from. Surely you're not advocating wearing a bicycle helmet on a motorbike? They're quite clearly as different as the powered and unpowered two wheel machines.

Do you mean that a cycle helmet might give equivalent protection allowing for the differences in mass and kinetic energy between a road bike, folder or MTB and a motor cycle?

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Thu 17 Jun 2021 20:04
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Brit_in_Germany

I've broken two helmets now. One when a car turned in front of me and the other while out with a mate who suddenly moved. Better buying a new helmet than risking the consequences.

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Fri 18 Jun 2021 07:34
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - _

In the past few days I have had 2 escooters swerve suddenly across in front of me, one in the same direction, and one oncoming. And a taxi got one as well. rider on floor, shouting at taxi driver.

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Fri 18 Jun 2021 10:28
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Engineer Andy

In the past few days I have had 2 escooters swerve suddenly across in front of me, one in the same direction, and one oncoming. And a taxi got one as well. rider on floor, shouting at taxi driver.

I think that e-scooters are even more of a menace than bad cyclists, because they are mainly the plaything of the young and because no-one in authoritiy is challenging them for riding (often at great speed) on the pavement and not stopping when crossing the road, etc, they encourage others (e.g. young cyclists and skateboarders) to do the same.

During the pandemic I've seen a LOT more cyclists (almost exclusively young people) ride on the pavement.

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Fri 18 Jun 2021 12:36
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - bathtub tom
I think that e-scooters are even more of a menace than bad cyclists, because they are mainly the plaything of the young and because no-one in authoritiy is challenging them

Over a hundred of them were confiscated by the police in London on Monday and Tuesday this week.

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 10:49
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Engineer Andy
I think that e-scooters are even more of a menace than bad cyclists, because they are mainly the plaything of the young and because no-one in authoritiy is challenging them

Over a hundred of them were confiscated by the police in London on Monday and Tuesday this week.

The trouble is that that sort of enforcement is patchy - I read an article yesterday whereby it described the situation in the Bristol area - the local council are actively encouraging them despite hardly anyone using them changing from car to e-scooter (mainly yoofs and people previously walking to work) , though that hasn't stopped said council pretending they are.

The local Police force said their introduction was a 'policing non-event', i.e. nuffin' to see here, we've got some thought policing to do...

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 14:21
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - blindspot

more escooters by the day taking off like flat screen tv's and mobile phones. all tenage boys want one

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 18:09
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Xileno

Off on a slight tangent maybe but just got back from a walk in the town and saw a youth on a battery-powered unicycle. He had a full crash helmet same as a motorcyclist, no identification but it did have a red light on the back. Surely this can't be legal? Anyone else seen these things?

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 19:07
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - bathtub tom

Anyone else seen these things?

I've seen one in town, on the pavement, of course! How on earth can they be expected to stop quickly?

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 21:40
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

On a conventional unicycle, my Brother in Law used one in his career as as an entertainer, a quick stop was achieved by jumping off.

I cannot get my head around the idea of a powered Unicycle.

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 21:52
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Xileno

This is the sort of thing I saw, tinyurl.com/u7y4yx3x

Speed of 31MPH would seem right, the youth was keeping up with the traffic.

Stopping would have been interesting if a child or some other hazard stepped out into the road.

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 23:06
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - bathtub tom

Two stories today, apologies for D Mail link:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9704301/Beautiful...l

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9703385/Craz-e-Mo...l

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Sun 20 Jun 2021 08:29
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

Two stories today, apologies for D Mail link:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9704301/Beautiful...l

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9703385/Craz-e-Mo...l

Both seem to relate to privately owned scooters which are, for now, illegal on UK roads. I also doubt the machine in the fatal collision was designed for the carriage of passengers.

The one on the M606 was caught by conventional policing and the machine confiscated. That bit of road is an urban motorway linking the Bradford Ring Road with the M62. I'd be surprised if he's the only person that day on foot, bike etc using it as a shortcut. Not defending him just pointing out that illegal use of urban sections is pretty common; one reason they often have a fifty limit.

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Sat 19 Jun 2021 23:14
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - sammy1

In one of the papers today video of someone on an e-scooter in the slip lane of the motorway trying to join. I wonder who would be blamed if he was involved or caused an accident. Life is becoming or has become more likely a free for all in this country!

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Sun 20 Jun 2021 09:15
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Engineer Andy

On a conventional unicycle, my Brother in Law used one in his career as as an entertainer, a quick stop was achieved by jumping off.

I cannot get my head around the idea of a powered Unicycle.

Presumably, like with B&W TVs, he could get a discount on said 'licence' for a bike. :-)

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Mon 21 Jun 2021 12:30
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Sulphur Man

I'm a motorist and cyclist. I use a bicycle wherever possible for shorter journeys, and for longer leisure ones too. I'm very much a 'best tool for the job' road user.

To look at registration of any transport mode, powered or self-powered, its worth looking at how effective current registration is. Let's take uninsured drivers as an example - all data from the Motor Insurer's Bureau (MIB). This body also provides the MID database, or ASKMID online tool.

So, in 2018 in the UK, there were 26,000 personal injury compensations for victims of uninsured and untraced 'hit and run' drivers - equivalent to one person in the UK being injured every 20 minutes.

Uninsured drivers cause a disproportionately high level of fatalities, over 130 people killed by a 'hit and run' driver in 2018.

Government figures, compared against MIB recorded rates, indicate an annual economic cost of £1.8 billion - costs for emergency services, medical care, loss of productivity and property damage.

For the insurance industry, the 2018 cost was around £400m, picked up by honest motorist's premiums.

132,804 uninsured vehicles were seized by police across the UK in 2018.

The question is, does registration, requirement for MOT, VED (where applicable) and valid insurance do anything to improve road behaviour and compliance. With my motorist hat on, and with the experiences I've had on my bicycle (both good and bad) it does not.

What I do believe though, is that fines and consequences for dangerous driving, injuries and loss of life are not at a level that poses an effective deterrent - laws must change, and lives need to be saved.

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Tue 22 Jun 2021 11:34
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Engineer Andy

To add to the thread with an article from today's Telegraph (paywalled site):

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/21/e-scooter-ride.../

Essentially a 55yo man crashed his e-scooter whilst out with about a dozen others who has hired e-scooters in Newcaste last Saturday night.

The man wasn't wearing a helmet and the accident appeared not to involve other road users or pedestrians, and as it was reported that he 'fell behind' the rest of the group, it could've been that he found it difficult to control the scooter.

He is now in critical condition in hospital.

I remember some years ago of an incident in one London's major parks where an in-line skater (I think) killed a pedestrian after colliding with them after recklessly skating at speed in the park.

Better training for people and, more importantly, that people take personal responibility for their conduct whilst doing such things needs to be improved. There also needs to be perhaps some kind of defined areas (in law) where people on e-scooters, skates, cycles, etc can and cannot go, what maximum speed they can go at and rules of conduct - perhaps including updating the Highway Code to suit.

Bad cycling, skating or use of e-scooters is as much anti-social as bad driving is.

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Tue 22 Jun 2021 12:10
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

To add to the thread with an article from today's Telegraph (paywalled site):

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/21/e-scooter-ride.../

Essentially a 55yo man crashed his e-scooter whilst out with about a dozen others who has hired e-scooters in Newcaste last Saturday night.

I cannot look at the article as I've used up what I'm allowed free and have no intention of supporting the surviving Barclay. However, accepting your summary, it looks like a tragic accident, probably arising from loss of control of the hired scooter. Although I don't wear a helmet on my pushbikes I might do so on the scooters. I've yet to action by intention to try one of the Northampton hire items. I am however back in the office next week so may give it a try.

Was the reckless skater prosecuted?

I'd bet a pound to a pinch of peppermint that the deceased, unless elderly and failed to survive orthopaedic surgery, banged their head and died of traumatic brain injury

Edited by Bromptonaut on 22/06/2021 at 13:53

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Tue 22 Jun 2021 19:56
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

Another site has uploaded video of the incident. Looks like the rider lost control whilst avoiding another vehicle that was emerging creep/peep into traffic:

www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/e-scooter-rider-55-in-...r

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Wed 23 Jun 2021 13:07
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Engineer Andy

To add to the thread with an article from today's Telegraph (paywalled site):

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/21/e-scooter-ride.../

Essentially a 55yo man crashed his e-scooter whilst out with about a dozen others who has hired e-scooters in Newcaste last Saturday night.

I cannot look at the article as I've used up what I'm allowed free and have no intention of supporting the surviving Barclay. However, accepting your summary, it looks like a tragic accident, probably arising from loss of control of the hired scooter. Although I don't wear a helmet on my pushbikes I might do so on the scooters. I've yet to action by intention to try one of the Northampton hire items. I am however back in the office next week so may give it a try.

Was the reckless skater prosecuted?

I'd bet a pound to a pinch of peppermint that the deceased, unless elderly and failed to survive orthopaedic surgery, banged their head and died of traumatic brain injury

I can only remember that the incident happened - I think it was big news at the time, similar to all the current 'outrage' of e-scooters. I was the DT article (which was actually quite brief) that jogged my memroy over the other incident. It certainly wouldn't surprise me that the death was by a head injury due to falling.

Whilst no additional information was given about the recent incident, I suspect it was either unfamiliarity with the scooter (bicycles they aint) and/or the abilities (possibly due to age/general fitness/reactions) of the user and perhaps combined with using it in unfamiliar circumstances.

Dangerous at the best of times to ride a bike or similar on quite roads for the first time, much more so on busy city roads on a Saturday night and possibly trying to keep up with mates (some who may know how to handle such equipment far better) who may be showing off by going fast and taking risks.

Ironically I saw three people (one middle aged guy and two young people) riding on the pavement in my area in the past couple of days whilst out for my daily constitutionals. Given how quite the roads are at those times, none of them had any excuse. Still, not as bad as the e-scooters, as they weren't going as fast.

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Thu 24 Jun 2021 22:44
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - bathtub tom

FYI:

metro.co.uk/2021/06/24/more-than-500-e-scooters-se.../

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Fri 25 Jun 2021 00:43
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Bromptonaut

Dangerous at the best of times to ride a bike or similar on quite roads for the first time, much more so on busy city roads on a Saturday night and possibly trying to keep up with mates (some who may know how to handle such equipment far better) who may be showing off by going fast and taking risks.

Whilst the quiet road comment is noted I'd disagree over the real or perceived dangers.

No issue whatsoever riding a bike on the lanes round here at any time of the day/week.

I'd far rather ride in rush hour London where everybody's accustomed to bikes than in a regional city or small town; St Peters Way in Northampton is way more intimidating than Kingsway or The Strand in WC2.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 25/06/2021 at 00:45

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Fri 25 Jun 2021 10:28
Bicycle and e-scooter registration - Engineer Andy

Dangerous at the best of times to ride a bike or similar on quite roads for the first time, much more so on busy city roads on a Saturday night and possibly trying to keep up with mates (some who may know how to handle such equipment far better) who may be showing off by going fast and taking risks.

Whilst the quiet road comment is noted I'd disagree over the real or perceived dangers.

No issue whatsoever riding a bike on the lanes round here at any time of the day/week.

I'd far rather ride in rush hour London where everybody's accustomed to bikes than in a regional city or small town; St Peters Way in Northampton is way more intimidating than Kingsway or The Strand in WC2.

I didn't mean some obscure country lane or known speeding location that locals use as a rat run, but a side road (which can be in a town) at 10am or 2pm when there's hardly anyone around, including less distractions for the cyclist/e-sooter rider and, just as importantly, other road users.

When you're having to keep an eye out for several road users at once in the rush hour, mistakes are far more likely, especially, as seems to be the case here, the rider had little to no experience on the e-scooter.

It's the same reason why a novice learner driver does not drive straight away down the local high street in rush hour, but (normally) in a barely-used car park or empty street away from other traffic, so they can learn the basics of control before they go on (slighly busier) roads. Common sense if you ask me.

Looking at your examples, I would say (and knowing at least the Kingsway and Strand very well myself from college [1990s] and work years [since]) they don't look that much different - all dangerous most of the time.

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